logo Sign In

Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 141

Author
Time

screams in the void said:

pleasehello said:

screams in the void said:

Jay said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Some good points about Jedi training and indoctrination, and I agree with you to a certain extent. However, everything we saw in the first six films indicates that guidance and meditation are required in order to maximize a Jedi’s powers and fully exploit the Force.

The extent of Anakin’s emergent powers in TPM is his ability to see into the future and anticipate things, and only to the point that it makes him appear to have superhuman reflexes. That’s it.

The extent of Luke’s powers in ANH are a few minutes against a remote where he “reaches out” and senses it, and the trench run where he’s told to “let go” and allow the Force to guide him while targeting the exhaust port. That’s all we got from Luke in his first go-round. He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force.

In TLJ, Rey successfully controls a trooper’s mind and holds her own in a lightsaber duel against a much more powerful, albeit injured, opponent, despite never having used a lightsaber before.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Luke failed to extract his X-Wing from the swamp and didn’t complete his training, and while he demonstrated some impressive maneuvers in his fight with his father, Vader toyed with him until he got his hand cut off and was forced to surrender. Whether that was a function of a lack of combat training or lack of proper meditation—probably both—he wasn’t adequately prepared.

After receiving a few lessons, Rey assaulted her teacher and got the drop on him with a lightsaber, then fought Snoke’s guards alongside Kylo and lifted a bunch of boulders like they weren’t even there, thus saving the day.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Not without precedent, but without training?

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

This is the crux of the problem. She’s not a character with an arc; she’s floating along and being handed her abilities by the universe in order to suit the narrative. No work, no progression, no setbacks, no loss. It’s a boring hero’s journey.

He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force ? Did we see the same movie ?!..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuKqcfO31is

He uses the force in the most abstract sense. The “trust your feelings” sense.
It’s not as if he guides the torpedoes into the exhaust port using telekinesis.

"use the Force Luke "

Yep. That seems pretty abstract to me.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

I totally agree with you. Jedi training isn’t about using the force. It is about training the mind. It is about taking a doubter and making them believe. It is about disipline. It is about following the Jedi code. Sure, they teach force skills along the way, probably a prescribed times. They teach a skill and then teach them how to use it responsibly before teaching the next. There is nothing in the PT or OT to indicate that any of these skills are hard. The dialog between Yoda and Luke during the X-wing scene explains it all. Luke can lift an X-wing if he believes he can. The dialog in the PT indicates that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda, even though Yoda is a master and 870 years older. Strength in the force is not dependent on the length of your training, but on your natural ability and your belief that you can do it.

No it isn’t. The creator of this universe and his films say otherwise:

You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years.

It’s one thing to accept a retcon of sorts, it’s another to just deny these concepts exist, and have consistently been applied in the films. Anakin had greater potential than Yoda, but in ROTS it becomes abundently clear potential isn’t everything. As Darth Sidious puts it “Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us”, as in become through training, except that he didn’t, because most of his body was destroyed, and replaced by machines, and he thus never got to live up to that potential. Then there’s Anakin’s own admission to Dooku, when he states, that his powers have doubled since the last time they met. How did they double you ask? Through Jedi training, study, and experience would be my answer. Then there’s the power of the dark side, that Anakin desires, and he states to Palpatine: “Is it possible to learn this power?”. Not from a Jedi is Palpatine’s answer. So, no people don’t figure out these things for themselves in the movies, and are mostly just thought how to use these powers responsibly, or irresponsibly.

Author
Time

DrDre, one could argue that the Force was never all about lifting rocks and stuff. So whether ability comes from deliberate practice or just cuz, it doesn’t matter.

(I think that’s a weak excuse for undermining the rules of the Star Wars universe but fits the ‘you’re focusing on the wrong stuff’ argument.)

The blue elephant in the room.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Mrebo said:

DrDre, one could argue that the Force was never all about lifting rocks and stuff. So whether ability comes from deliberate practice or just cuz, it doesn’t matter.

(I think that’s a weak excuse for undermining the rules of the Star Wars universe but fits the ‘you’re focusing on the wrong stuff’ argument.)

I would agree, if the development/mastery of these powers, and personal growth/decline weren’t so obviously linked in Lucas’ space saga, but they are. The ST has thrown out the baby with the bath water. It should come as no surprise that Rey is considered by many to be the most bland protagonist in the saga.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Mrebo said:

DrDre, one could argue that the Force was never all about lifting rocks and stuff.

[Ben Kenobi said:]

Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

[Luke Skywalker said:]

The Force is not a power you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things, a tension, a balance, that binds the universe together.

The entire X-wing moves majestically, surely, toward the shore. Yoda
stands on a tree root and guides the fighter carefully down toward the
beach.

Luke stares in astonishment as the fighter settles down onto the shore.
He walks toward Yoda.

  		LUKE
  I don't... I don't believe it.

  		YODA
  That is why you fail.

If Rey wasn’t pretty confident with her abilitys, we’d have Luke’s arc again. All I want, as the viewer, is the most interesting/fun story possible with characters I enjoy watching. The sequels so far have given me this.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

But Rey already has “the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.”

You’re putting canon over story. In your mind you perceive Rey’s abilities to be a serious breach of established continuity. Because yeah, Lucas did make statements that support your assertions (those he’s also made some that support mine). But what I care about is what’s in the text itself. Star Wars is an ever-evolving universe. Rey’s journey is changing the way we see the force in the context of the films (and not necessarily contradicting anything we’ve seen before, if it’s contradicting what we’ve been told outside of the films), and I’m okay with that. Because it is serving the story first, and the canon second.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Notably Obi-wan says he can’t control it after Luke failed to lift the X-wing.

Author
Time

Handman said:

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really

Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.

Maybe read the rest of the post before contributing nothing to the discussion.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

But Rey already has “the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.”

You’re putting canon over story. In your mind you perceive Rey’s abilities to be a serious breach of established continuity. Because yeah, Lucas did make statements that support your assertions (those he’s also made some that support mine). But what I care about is what’s in the text itself. Star Wars is an ever-evolving universe. Rey’s journey is changing the way we see the force in the context of the films (and not necessarily contradicting anything we’ve seen before, if it’s contradicting what we’ve been told outside of the films), and I’m okay with that. Because it is serving the story first, and the canon second.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Notably Obi-wan says he can’t control it after Luke failed to lift the X-wing.

I’m absolutely fine with that. We all weigh different elements in a different way, which is why there’s no right and wrong in judging art.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

I always thought that having Yoda say ‘size matters not’ was an extremely daring thing for the writers to do, because could potentially break the idea of a Jedi as a videogame character with leveling up and unlocking abilities and whatnot. The Force is a kind of spirituality made manifest in a world. For it to work as such it must be, in a sense, boundless in its potential. I imagined that when Yoda said this the implication was that everyone has the potential for unlimited ability in the Force, since it’s more primal and important than matter. It’s merely the limitations of the mind which keep a person’s abilities in check, which is presumably why the Jedi liked to recruit at such a young age - small children have less mental barriers. When Luke failed to lift the X-wing, Yoda implies that his failure is precisely because of his lifetime of assumptions as to what is possible.

Exactly.

But presumably the lack of assumptions alone is not enough for lifting X-wings. One also has to be conditioned to believe that they can do these things in variance with their own understanding of physical reality. I imagine that this is why mentors are so important - if you have an example for what is possible, you can override those ingrained assumptions much easier.

Based on this, I can see how Rey would be an ideal candidate for ability in the Force. She is constantly looking back to her young childhood and has a strong faith formed over her entire life as she’s waited for her parents to return. Because she’s waiting for them, she has never traveled off planet, even though she is clearly capable of doing so. In fact, she is established as being overqualified for a scavenger’s existence, but because she stays she has known no real failure from inability. Her conception of good and evil is childlike due to her nostalgia and desperate need to return to that state of belonging, to the point where she accepts Maz’s view of the light/dark dichotomy without question and joins the Resistance without a second thought. Her mentor is Kylo Ren, whom she ultimately defeats in both movies. She is a person who has not yet found her limits, not yet known real failure and defeat. This makes her terrifyingly powerful in the Force, but also terrifyingly fragile, for with a single failure she could lose much of her ability.

At least that’s how I would interpret the character. I’m willing to bet JJ doesn’t share this interpretation.

That’s mostly how I see it too (I’d be surprised if JJ didn’t either, he did create the character after all).

I think it’s important to remember both Luke and Anakin faced their biggest temptations toward the dark side in their third chapters. I imagine the same will happen to Rey.

Author
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

But Rey already has “the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.”

You’re putting canon over story. In your mind you perceive Rey’s abilities to be a serious breach of established continuity. Because yeah, Lucas did make statements that support your assertions (those he’s also made some that support mine). But what I care about is what’s in the text itself. Star Wars is an ever-evolving universe. Rey’s journey is changing the way we see the force in the context of the films (and not necessarily contradicting anything we’ve seen before, if it’s contradicting what we’ve been told outside of the films), and I’m okay with that. Because it is serving the story first, and the canon second.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Notably Obi-wan says he can’t control it after Luke failed to lift the X-wing.

I’m absolutely fine with that. We all weigh different elements in a different way, which is why there’s no right and wrong in judging art.

Author
Time

Where I am coming from is the idea that anyone can do anything, but some just require more training. Some things come naturally to people without them having to be trained. Sometimes training in one area actually prepares you for something completely different. Early in the days of computers, they were looking for people with musical talent because they found a connection between understanding music and understanding programming.

So let’s look at how this impacts our Jedi characters.

Classic Republic Jedi are trained from a very young age. They are indoctrinated into the Jedi philosophy and trained in the Jedi arts. They are basically raised in a monastic order - never supposed to develop attachments and remain aloof.

Anakin is found at the age of 9 and is already strong in the force. He has tapped into the force to become one of the best Pod Racers (at 9) in the galaxy. That translated to flying a fighter. In the decade he is trained by Obi-wan, he is school in the Jedi way and the Jedi arts. We have no inkling how easy or hard it was for him to master any of the Jedi arts, but it is made very plain that he chafes at the Jedi way. It is clear that the Jedi training that they rely on to keep Jedi from being tempted by the dark side did not work. Obi-wan feels he failed Anakin, but we see that Anakin had issues and was being mentored by Palpatine which contributed to the Jedi teachings not being effective. But even though they were not effective, he was still one of the most powerful Jedi of the period. Obi-wan felt that if he applied himself more to his training he would rival Master Yoda. Anakin appears to have been conceived by the Force as part of a prophecy of balancing the Force.

Luke starts his training at 19. He has also tapped into the force for flying, becoming the best bush pilot on the outer rim, according to Biggs. He grew up in a very practical home, but he mastered deflecting blaster bolts from a remote in one lesson. Yet he had so many doubts that he could not lift an X-wing. Yoda said his lack of belief is why he failed. We never see Yoda train him with a light saber at all. We don’t see Yoda teach him any skills except communing with the Force and lots of physical activity. Yet in Return of the Jedi he has mastered them all. The amount of training he had depends on the hyperspace travel time from Tatooine to Aleraan and the non-hyperspace (or by backup hyperdrive) travel time from Hoth to Bespin. That is day or months, not years. So Luke did not receive long and extensive training. According to the official timeline, it was 4 years between ANH and ROTJ. But however long or short, Luke was able to resist the dark side far better than his father who had a decade of far more intense training. Of course he didn’t have a Sith Lord whispering in his ear for that same amount of time. Luke was the biological son of one of the most powerful Force users of the old Republic. He seemed to have inherited some of that. He had no known training in levitating objects before he grabbed his lightsaber to cut himself down in the Wampa cave. He hadn’t even seen anyone do that. So he exhibited a self taught skill.

Rey is of unknown age (Daisy was 22 when she filmed TFA). She has been living on Jakku since she was a kid. She has been working for an unknown time. She is a scavenger so she has crawled all over the wrecked ships of Jakku (we see a couple of Star Destroyers, a Super Star Destoyer, an AT-AT, and an unknown number of fighters) retrieving useful items. She is obviously a skilled climber. We don’t know who her parents are. They appear not to have been anyone of significance. She helps Finn escape and comes to Kylo’s attention. Through his contact with her she is exposed to the Force and she is able to pick up the skills that she sees Kylo use. Not without some difficulty. Luke helps her refine her ability to tap into the Force and she is able to life a bunch of rocks to free the survivors on Crait.

There are others, such as Chirrut Imwe, Ezra Bridger, but they aren’t in the Saga movies and seem to have a more difficult time picking things up than Luke. Plus there are ones we don’t know the training of like Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.

What is clear that amount of time training does not equal ability in the Force. If so, Obi-Wan would have been far more powerful and from the dialog it is clear that he knows his padawan is more powerful than he is. Luke, with so little training in comparison, is able to defeat his father in lightsaber combat. He is immune to the temptations of the Emperor (to join him - he is not immune to the threat to his friends). So we get to Rey. Rey doesn’t spontaneously learn skills she has not seen (like Luke levitating his saber). She is very powerful, but she is observing (not just with her 5 senses - with the force as well) another very powerful Force user and copying. We see her learning these skills in TFA and she is a natural. How does she master them? The force awakened in her. Why it chose her we don’t know. I think it was that it was dormant because no one around her had any trace of ability and it came to life in the proximity of Kylo Ren. She lacks the self-doubt and whininess that Luke exhibited in the OT. What she needs is a teacher to show her what she can do and a guide to help her use these newfound powers the right way.

Anakin’s journey was never about if he could learn these powers, it was about him trying to fit in to the Jedi while being lead astray by Palpatine. His journey is one of temptation and fall. Luke was a white knight when it comes to that. His one temptation was when Vader threatened Leia. Other than that he was as solidly in the light and his journey was to find the faith that he could do what he needed to do. Rey’s journey, although incomplete at the moment, has nothing to do with struggling to learn, but to find the path. She has chosen the light, but not the one sided light that young Luke had taken. She has the skills, but she has no future. What is she doing? What path is she on? Where will she take these newfound powers. Her journey is to find her destination, her purpose. Her force ability isn’t the issue in her journey, just like it wasn’t for Anakin. It was for Luke, but he had a clear purpose.

So worrying about how easy it is for Rey to pick up these skills and saying she isn’t a rounded character ignores her struggles and how they compare to Anakin and Luke. All three have a different facet of the journey to being a Jedi that they are struggling with. But all three have very similar journeys with obstacles to overcome.

Author
Time

You’re forgetting the most important ingredient in mastery of any skill. We see Anakin levitating objects fully ten years after he starts his Jedi training. Luke does this (presumably for the first time) several years after beginning to learn of his ability, and I’m guessing that he could have asked around about the Jedi and their most famous ability during that time. We also don’t know if Ben has been actively helping him during this time like he did during the Death Star battle. I don’t see why he wouldn’t.

The great thing about a time jump in the story is that it allows for the audience to interpret any number of intervening events which help their suspension of disbelief. TFA and TLJ strip this from the audience, forcing them to accept what happens on screen or concoct ever more flimsy justifications.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really

Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.

Maybe read the rest of the post before contributing nothing to the discussion.

I did. The way you word things is irritating. But I’ll fuck off now.

Author
Time

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really

Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.

Maybe read the rest of the post before contributing nothing to the discussion.

I did. The way you word things is irritating. But I’ll fuck off now.

You just didn’t get what you wanted from Dom’s post.

Author
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really

Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.

Maybe read the rest of the post before contributing nothing to the discussion.

I did. The way you word things is irritating. But I’ll fuck off now.

You just didn’t get what you wanted from Dom’s post.

But I did.

Author
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really

Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.

Maybe read the rest of the post before contributing nothing to the discussion.

I did. The way you word things is irritating. But I’ll fuck off now.

You just didn’t get what you wanted from Dom’s post.

Tell me what I wanted.

Author
Time

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really

Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.

Maybe read the rest of the post before contributing nothing to the discussion.

I did. The way you word things is irritating. But I’ll fuck off now.

You just didn’t get what you wanted from Dom’s post.

Tell me what I wanted.

Sounds like a trap.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Something that I found interesting is that the Yoda scene in this movie implies that Yoda hasn’t spoken to Luke in 30 years.

[Yoda said:]
Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke…

[Yoda said:]
Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned.

I wonder if Kenobi also gave him the silent treatment.

Author
Time

snooker said:

Something that I found interesting is that the Yoda scene in this movie implies that Yoda hasn’t spoken to Luke in 30 years.

[Yoda said:]
Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke…

[Yoda said:]
Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned.

I wonder if Kenobi also gave him the silent treatment.

It’s possible they haven’t, but I don’t think that line necessarily implies that.

Author
Time

Yoda definitely gave Kenobi the “I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you!” treatment.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

snooker said:

Mrebo said:

DrDre, one could argue that the Force was never all about lifting rocks and stuff.

[Ben Kenobi said:]

Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

[Luke Skywalker said:]

The Force is not a power you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things, a tension, a balance, that binds the universe together.

The entire X-wing moves majestically, surely, toward the shore. Yoda
stands on a tree root and guides the fighter carefully down toward the
beach.

Luke stares in astonishment as the fighter settles down onto the shore.
He walks toward Yoda.

  	LUKE
I don't... I don't believe it.

  	YODA
That is why you fail.

If Rey wasn’t pretty confident with her abilities, we’d have Luke’s arc again. All I want, as the viewer, is the most interesting/fun story possible with characters I enjoy watching. The sequels so far have given me this.

The trouble is that we might all agree the Force isn’t about lifting rocks. But a bunch of us understand the Force, contrivance though it is, as it was portrayed in the OT, where supernatural abilities weren’t necessarily important because they were hard-earned, but were hard-earned. Luke’s lesson in the cave or resisting temptation were always more important.

In some ways, the ST portrayal makes the Force more about the amazing abilities because of how much more in your face it all is.

It’s the same incoherence we find in other areas of the film, where the film shows one thing but purports to tell something else. I don’t find that terribly clever or good story-telling.

The blue elephant in the room.

Author
Time

We’re 140 pages into discussing the film. A great many of those pages are walls of text where people are defending their position on Rey and the nature of The Force and if they are in line with the previous 40 years of the franchise. Nothing at all wrong with seeing the TLJ characters & story in a way that fits with your personal canon.

That said, I also think it shows that the way it was written and presented was controversial. It’s managed to further divide an already very divided fan base and may very well have had a negative effect on the public view and box office of Solo.

Forum Moderator
Author
Time
 (Edited)

The fact is RJ went out of his way to make a Star Wars film that challenged everything we know about star wars. About the force, the Jedi, the roles of heroes and villains, politics and economics. It’s very deliberate. And for that reason some people hate it, others think its the best film since Empire.

I think all these nit picks about Jedi training and power levels and admirals not sharing plans with captains are kind of missing the big picture.

Author
Time

Chewielewis said:

The fact is RJ went out of his way to make a Star Wars film that challenged everything we know about star wars. About the force, the Jedi, the roles of heroes and villains, politics and economics. It’s very deliberate. And for that reason some people hate it, others think its the best film since Empire.

I think all these nit picks about Jedi training and power levels and admirals not sharing plans with captains are kind of missing the big picture.

Yes, RJ deliberately went out of his way to challenge established canon. The fact that there is a large portion of the fan base arguing about it doesn’t mean they don’t get it, it means they don’t like it.

It’s no different than Lucas using CGI to alter a long established core trait of Han Solo as a character. Lucas went out of his way to force it on the fan base and even went so far as to make light of it by selling shirts to rub it in. The fans didn’t miss the point. They didn’t like it.

For a great many fans, adding to the story is preferable to rewriting it.

Forum Moderator