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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 135

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Broom Kid said:

I don’t agree it undoes ROTJ’s conclusions any more than the onward march of time “undoes” the actions (and the meaning behind the actions) of the people who fought (and died) for things in the past.

When the allied powers won the war and created a peacetime, History didn’t continue with Zombie Hitler reinstating the Axis Powers tenfold and starting World War 3 in the 1970’s

Seeking only the most natural looking colors for Star Wars '77

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Swazzy said:

Broom Kid said:

I don’t agree it undoes ROTJ’s conclusions any more than the onward march of time “undoes” the actions (and the meaning behind the actions) of the people who fought (and died) for things in the past.

When the allied powers won the war and created a peacetime, History didn’t continue with Zombie Hitler reinstating the Axis Powers tenfold and starting World War 3 in the 1970’s

The analogy worked when the OT war was WWI, which was supposedly, infamously, “the war to end all wars.” The ST is then WWII.

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But the “It undid ROTJ” arguments happened the second TFA hit, and were only more loudly repeated in the wake of TLJ. The Rise of Skywalker’s existence doesn’t change the underlying point I’m making. It makes the argument overall uglier and dumber, yes, but the content of the argument maintains its consistency. It’s an argument in which one side is upset that “happily ever after” wasn’t maintained - but the basic myth that Star Wars is built on never allowed for that anyway. Arthurian myth goes past the part where Excalibur is pulled from the stone, and deals with what happens past the point of initial triumph. The Sequel Trilogy is concerned with plumbing those parts of it and coming up with equivalents for our time, and delivering lessons for the youth living through a rise in global fascism in the 21st century despite the fact those youth’s grandparents and great grandparents bravely fought and died to defeat that fascism in its initial form in the past. That the Sequel Trilogy was pursuing that thematic goal doesn’t nullify the thematic drive of the Original Trilogy, nor does it cancel out the arcs that were built and completed in that story.

Or at least, it appeared to be pursuing that goal. It had the potential to do that. That potential was wasted in this last movie, unfortunately, because this movie isn’t really about anything at all. It’s about deleted scenes solving a plot puzzle created by a real-life death, and resurrecting a dead villain for the sake of adhering to the superficial (and already solved) mystery about the main character. Neither of those things are a theme, or have anything to do with theme, and that’s why the movie feels hollow and flat. There’s nothing it wants to say, and so it never says anything at all.

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 (Edited)

Convenient that what used to be the analogue for the OT is now for the ST. As if they both serve the same literary purpose in a discordant manner.

I’ll grant the Last Jedi was concerned with decontructing the mythos in a way that maybe could’ve moved things forward. I cannot grant that to the other two.

Seeking only the most natural looking colors for Star Wars '77

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 (Edited)

If ROTJ was happily ever after, the ST is supposed to be what happens after happily ever after, when reality sets in. But instead TROS is just ‘forget that happily ever after, this is the real happily ever after.’ Which is lazy.

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Well… it’s a TV show now. Or a TV franchise, rather. That’s where it’ll live for now, and that’s likely where it thrives and satisfies for the near future.

We did it, you guys. We lived long enough to see Star Wars become Star Trek.

What a weird and wonderful time to be alive.

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 (Edited)

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

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Shopping Maul said:

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

But at least ROTJ had some powerful themes at its core, even if everything ended a bit too neatly. TROS essentially redoes this ending only much bigger, and louder, but ultimately much less effective imo.

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DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

But at least ROTJ had some powerful themes at its core, even if everything ended a bit too neatly. TROS essentially redoes this ending only much bigger, and louder, but ultimately much less effective imo.

Agreed.

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Nothing negates anything for me I can view each trilogy as separate, if anything now in retrospect ROTJ looks a little bit brighter.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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DominicCobb said:

Hard not to take the handling of Rose as a fuck you to Rose. I was willing to accept the first half, unfortunate as it is, when she doesn’t go on the mission. JJ wants it to be about the trio he set up. But the final battle where she does nothing? When they literally have horses and she doesn’t even ride one? The perfect place to at least throw the character a bone but nope.

Yeah dislike Rose all you want but that was straight up humiliating, really harsh thing to do to Kelly Marie Tran.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Shopping Maul said:

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

I kinda get what you mean, especially when you consider that it wasn’t until the PT’s ‘chosen one bringing balance to the force’ decontextualization that ROTJ really became the final word in a grand saga. The OT, taken on its on, it’s not unreasonable that there’d be something after.

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Shopping Maul said:

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s

He didn’t turn to the dark side. He delved into the dark side in order to learn its secrets, to know why Vader turned and to conquer it from within. There’s a difference.

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I enjoyed it. It was dumb as shit but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Hated the Palpatine reveal, Rey being a nobody was my absolute favourite thing about TLJ, to see it retconned was saddening, but meh, it’s just a movie. I’ll probably watch it a couple more times regardless of my problems with it.

Not enough people read the EU.

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 (Edited)

I couldn’t make this up: there was only one person in front of me in the theater (far from a packed house this morning), and when it was revealed that Rey was a Palpatine, he muttered something under his breath, got up, and left.
I stifled a laugh and let it out once he was far enough away.

JEDIT: God damn all these Star Wars… please don’t make me do it…

My stance on revising fan edits.

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I’ll be honest, I’ve seen it twice already. Second showing, half the theater either groaned, laughed, or said “what?” when Rey was revealed to be a Palpatine.

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The theater I was in for my first viewing could not help but laugh when Rey and Ben kissed! Then when Ben falls over I muttered “of course” and the whole theater laughed again.

After being beaten and battered by prequel hate, I promise not to be that to the next generation.

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My second showing everyone laughed. First showing there was cheers.

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I’ve never been in a theater for a Star Wars movie where anybody groaned or laughed at the movie instead of with the movie. There’s always clapping and cheering. Anybody who’s ever left the theater has always come back hurrying. I think most people in an area just coincidentally feel the same way cause people that dislike a movie tend to be in a theater where everybody mocks it or leaves, whereas I tend to have a more positive outlook and only experience good audience reactions.

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I actually am really sad because watching TFA and TLJ there were cheers but I got tickets late so I guess I was watching it with not die hard fans except for the people I was with

After being beaten and battered by prequel hate, I promise not to be that to the next generation.

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Lesser said:

I think most people in an area just coincidentally feel the same way cause people that dislike a movie tend to be in a theater where everybody mocks it or leaves, whereas I tend to have a more positive outlook and only experience good audience reactions.

Confirmation bias is a double-edged Sith dagger.

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ray_afraid said:

Broom Kid said:

one side is upset that “happily ever after” wasn’t maintained

That’s not it at all. It’s that our OT heroes victories were seemingly undone & our enemies doubled strength with no explanation.

Nothing a little EU and fanwanking couldn’t fix, though, amirite?