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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 153

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DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.

But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.

Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.

Um… a story is the overall chain of events. A lot of real stories can be boring. You could make a movie about someone’s day at work and if you pick a normal day the movie would be boring. Plot is the literary device that takes a story and elevates it to something special. The plot is the specific chain of events (sometimes a web of events if you have multiple characters) with one thing leading to another. Plot would be using flashbacks to take that otherwise boring seeming day and making it something unusual. For Star Wars, the crawl sets up the story and the plot. You can also think of story as timeline and plot as how the scene connect. Story tells you someone died, plot tells you how and gives you the emotional impact.

Nope.

Sorry, but the way I learned it is the story is the events, and plot is how you arrange them to tell them. For instance, in The Upside, we start with two guys in a car. That scene is toward the end of the story and after we jump back to the beginning of the story, we work our way forward until we get to the scene again and then move past it. That is the plot. We tell the story by rearranging the events to make them have more impact. The plot of the movie jumps from the later scene to the beginning and works back. Also, the book The Cloud Atlas is arranged as 6 stories, each broken in the middle. We start with one the move through them to the center one and then back off each one and finish the story. The movie version took that story and changed the plot by interconnecting the 6 stories into a different narrative. And by casting the same actors in roles in each of the settings, it wove the main idea of the plot into the fabric of the film in a different way. The two stories are identical, but they are plotted differently.

And to use the word in a related way, when you plot a course on a map, you are picking point A and B and deciding how to get from one to the other. Different people might take different routes and create different plots. Additionally, in the early days of CAD, drawings were made using actual pens. The device was called a plotter because it plotted the lines on the paper as the computer told it to. A plot is the line the connects the points. The same way you plot a course by sea or air, you plot a story’s course through the events. Plot comes from a French word for plan or project. You don’t provide a story summary when trying to sell your writing, you provide a plot summary. It is how you are going to tell your story, whatever story that may be.

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 (Edited)

Sent this to a Jewish friend as a joke. A joke, mind you.

“ I saw The Rise of Skywalker again and I think I get it now. Take a story that already has a fluid continuity as works reinterpret prior works, whose story was concluded nicely while leaving room for one to follow in the heroes’ steps. A story of reckoning with evil and religious commentary about prophecies that can be applied liberally. No one character dominates the story and many add their part.

Then, many years later, the story abruptly continues. An overpowered godlike character with no flaws shows up to outdo all prior characters in their areas of talent. This character handles everything effortlessly with no regard for nuance or ambiguity. Featuring unprecedented death and resurrection, this person defeats the beefed up singular bad guy after being anointed by spiritual ancestors and takes retroactive credit for everything back to the beginning. Where there was noble failure now there is painfully literal success such that no one else need try to contribute any longer and just bow down to the unwavering greatness of the new Chosen One.

I get it now.”

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

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Yeah. It’s interesting that this story concept also appears in other works of fiction when they need to string out the narrative to a few more releases.

Broom Kid said:

Plot isn’t a story in the same way a skeleton isn’t a soul.

If you want to be really picky the plot isn’t even the whole script, it’s just the stage notes for each actor.

Yub Nub for life

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The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

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They wanted a Hollywood reboot, hence JJ Abrams.

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 (Edited)

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

This is very true. Imagine watching the Saga for the first time. You finish each movie and are probably like:

TPM: Yay! I wonder what adventures Obi-Wan and Anakin will go on!
AOTC: Oooh! I wonder what this clone war will entail!
ROTS: Woah! I wonder how Luke and Leia will save the galaxy!
ANH: Yay! I wonder what adventures Luke and co will have!
TESB: Woah! I wonder how they will save Han, and if Vader is Luke’s father!
ROTJ: Yay! I wonder what will happen next now that the Empire is defeated.

And sure you’ll have more fun watching TFA then any of the prequel movies, but you will also be a bit confused and disappointed how 180 the direction went. I think everyone was chill with this in 2015 because we were under the impression the mystery box would explain a huge galaxy-changing twist about the stuff between 6 and 7. It really doesn’t.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”. I agree it’s less clear what the scope of the First Order’s power is, but only because their name is more ambiguous.

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pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”. I agree it’s less clear what the scope of the First Order’s power is, but only because their name is more ambiguous.

The OT doesn’t need as much explanation though, because the story is relatively simple. An evil empire rules the entire galaxy, and a brave group of rebels has to stop them. With the sequels, you need more backstory to explain where this mysterious First Order came from, how much influence it has, and why the Resistance is a separate group from the Republic, none of which is explained by the movies. You need to read the EU to find out the basic plot of the sequels, which isn’t a good approach to storytelling.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”. I agree it’s less clear what the scope of the First Order’s power is, but only because their name is more ambiguous.

The OT doesn’t need as much explanation though, because the story is relatively simple. An evil empire rules the entire galaxy, and a brave group of rebels has to stop them. With the sequels, you need more backstory to explain where this mysterious First Order came from, how much influence it has, and why the Resistance is a separate group from the Republic, none of which is explained by the movies. You need to read the EU to find out the basic plot of the sequels, which isn’t a good approach to storytelling.

Right. It’s obvious that Abrams was trying to do something simpler, eschewing the politics of the prequels. In his mind, I bet the story made as much sense as the OT. But the ST is a continuing story, the First Order is not the Empire and at least a bit more (not much) explanation was definitely warranted.

I know this has been said ad nauseum, but I’ll take the confusing galactic status of the ST over the political minutia of the prequels any day of the week. It’s still too bad a middle road wasn’t taken.

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pleasehello said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”. I agree it’s less clear what the scope of the First Order’s power is, but only because their name is more ambiguous.

The OT doesn’t need as much explanation though, because the story is relatively simple. An evil empire rules the entire galaxy, and a brave group of rebels has to stop them. With the sequels, you need more backstory to explain where this mysterious First Order came from, how much influence it has, and why the Resistance is a separate group from the Republic, none of which is explained by the movies. You need to read the EU to find out the basic plot of the sequels, which isn’t a good approach to storytelling.

Right. It’s obvious that Abrams was trying to do something simpler, eschewing the politics of the prequels. In his mind, I bet the story made as much sense as the OT. But the ST is a continuing story, the First Order is not the Empire and at least a bit more (not much) explanation was definitely warranted.

I think the issue is that the situation was originally written to be rather different than the OT ‘rebels vs. empire,’ but overtime they cut out all the political stuff that they thought people might find confusing/boring, and just kept it the simple ‘rebels vs. empire.’ The problem is this was done after the fact so you can tell it’s more complicated than the film suggests, but they don’t explain it. I doubt Abrams thought worked perfectly, and he seemed to try to rectify this sort of confusion in TROS by having a conference room scene that tried to clearly delineate the dynamics of the different factions.

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pleasehello said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”. I agree it’s less clear what the scope of the First Order’s power is, but only because their name is more ambiguous.

The OT doesn’t need as much explanation though, because the story is relatively simple. An evil empire rules the entire galaxy, and a brave group of rebels has to stop them. With the sequels, you need more backstory to explain where this mysterious First Order came from, how much influence it has, and why the Resistance is a separate group from the Republic, none of which is explained by the movies. You need to read the EU to find out the basic plot of the sequels, which isn’t a good approach to storytelling.

I know this has been said ad nauseum, but I’ll take the confusing galactic status of the ST over the political minutia of the prequels any day of the week. It’s still too bad a middle road wasn’t taken.

I actually preferred the boring politics of the prequels, because at least that made sense. JJ was so afraid of reminding people of the prequels that he removed the few exposition scenes of the movie in post, creating an overly confusing mess.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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It’s a such a small aspect of the film, I don’t really care that it’s confusing. I’ll take the ST. The politics in the PT were not only boring, they often didn’t make sense and they didn’t add much to the story.

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pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”.

This is simply not true. We see the Empire terrorize the citizens of Tatooine and Bespin, having spies and mercenaries everywhere, shattering the residues of the old Republic with the dissolution of Senate and destruction of Alderaan, which itself is supposed to be a clear message towards potentially dissenting systems.

Sure, the First Order somehow built the SKB, but that was supposedly a one-off device with no clear follow-up and nobody really reacts to the obliteration of several systems. My point still stands.

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DominicCobb said:

It’s a such a small aspect of the film, I don’t really care that it’s confusing. I’ll take the ST. The politics in the PT were not only boring, they often didn’t make sense and they didn’t add much to the story.

I’ve never really understood this complaint. There are only two “political” scenes in the PT, one for TPM and one for AOTC. In TPM, the entire point of the story so far is to get to Coruscant to reveal what the Trade Federation is up to to the Senate, so the Republic can save the day. But we learn here that the Trade Federation has a significant hold over the Senate, which leads to a vote of no confidence which is super important for Palpatine (and the probably the most dynamic event that can happen in politics). Nevertheless, the heroes must handle the problem with the Senate’s help.

Similarly, the only political scene in AOTC is pivotal to the plot. Should the Republic war with the Separatists? This is built up throughout the story and once it happens is very quick and to the point: Jar Jar says let’s get the Chancellor supreme powers, and the other Senators vote yes.

And then what? Palpatine declaring the Republic now an Empire? That barely counts as politics. The PT’s politics aren’t epic by any means, but they also aren’t the evil people tend to blame them as. The real issue with those movies was its characters and weird plot structure.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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I don’t just consider scenes set in the Senate chambers to be political scenes. There are a lot of moments in all three films that would qualify. And when I talk about politics being boring, I’m not just talking about specific scenes. I’m also talking about the specific political conflicts themselves.

Anyway, it’s hardly the worst aspect of the prequels. But it’s not very good either.

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DominicCobb said:

It’s a such a small aspect of the film, I don’t really care that it’s confusing.

What do you mean, “small aspect?” The First Order vs Resistance conflict was the main story of the sequels, and it wasn’t handled well at all. If you want to reset the galactic situation to Brave Rebels vs Evil Empire, at least give a satisfying explanation.

The politics in the PT were not only boring, they often didn’t make sense and they didn’t add much to the story.

Have you watched the prequels recently? I don’t think the politics in those movies were as bad as you make it seem. There were only one or two Senate scenes per movie, and the political situation wasn’t confusing at all. I actually liked how we saw the downfall of the corrupt Republic and the seeds of Palpatine’s manipulation. The political scenes were some of the highlights of the prequels in my opinion.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s a such a small aspect of the film, I don’t really care that it’s confusing.

What do you mean, “small aspect?” The First Order vs Resistance conflict was the main story of the sequels, and it wasn’t handled well at all. If you want to reset the galactic situation to Brave Rebels vs Evil Empire, at least give a satisfying explanation.

That’s just the backdrop for the story, not the story itself.

Have you watched the prequels recently? I don’t think the politics in those movies were as bad as you make it seem. There were only one or two Senate scenes per movie, and the political situation wasn’t confusing at all. I actually liked how we saw the downfall of the corrupt Republic and the seeds of Palpatine’s manipulation. The political scenes were some of the highlights of the prequels in my opinion.

I’ve seen them enough to basically have them memorized. I just watched them last month. Yes, I have seen them recently.

DominicCobb said:

I don’t just consider scenes set in the Senate chambers to be political scenes. There are a lot of moments in all three films that would qualify. And when I talk about politics being boring, I’m not just talking about specific scenes. I’m also talking about the specific political conflicts themselves.

Anyway, it’s hardly the worst aspect of the prequels. But it’s not very good either.

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Of course they could have made a much more personal story without the need to flesh out the political state of the Galaxy. It’s just complicated when some of the most prominent characters are a “supreme leader”, a general princess and the last Jedi master. Not calling for six hours of Senate meetings here, just a clear idea about the current state of the Galaxy. But I guess that’s just another mystery box.

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s a such a small aspect of the film, I don’t really care that it’s confusing.

What do you mean, “small aspect?” The First Order vs Resistance conflict was the main story of the sequels, and it wasn’t handled well at all. If you want to reset the galactic situation to Brave Rebels vs Evil Empire, at least give a satisfying explanation.

That’s just the backdrop for the story, not the story itself.

The backdrop for the story is necessary to tell the story. If the backdrop makes no sense, the whole story falls apart.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Wexter said:

Of course they could have made a much more personal story without the need to flesh out the political state of the Galaxy. It’s just complicated when some of the most prominent characters are a “supreme leader”, a general princess and the last Jedi master. Not calling for six hours of Senate meetings here, just a clear idea about the current state of the Galaxy. But I guess that’s just another mystery box.

Exactly. No one is calling out the Mandalorian for not explaining the exact logistics of the Guild, Garrison or New Republic… because they aren’t important to the story. I’d say a movie that picks off right after the old government was toppled should explore what’s next.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s a such a small aspect of the film, I don’t really care that it’s confusing.

What do you mean, “small aspect?” The First Order vs Resistance conflict was the main story of the sequels, and it wasn’t handled well at all. If you want to reset the galactic situation to Brave Rebels vs Evil Empire, at least give a satisfying explanation.

That’s just the backdrop for the story, not the story itself.

The backdrop for the story is necessary to tell the story. If the backdrop makes no sense, the whole story falls apart.

  1. It’s only part of the backdrop
  2. It doesn’t “make no sense,” it’s just confusing because it’s glossed over
  3. TFA is pretty good evidence that the story does not fall apart even if you don’t explain one small aspect

OutboundFlight said:

Wexter said:

Of course they could have made a much more personal story without the need to flesh out the political state of the Galaxy. It’s just complicated when some of the most prominent characters are a “supreme leader”, a general princess and the last Jedi master. Not calling for six hours of Senate meetings here, just a clear idea about the current state of the Galaxy. But I guess that’s just another mystery box.

Exactly. No one is calling out the Mandalorian for not explaining the exact logistics of the Guild, Garrison or New Republic… because they aren’t important to the story. I’d say a movie that picks off right after the old government was toppled should explore what’s next.

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

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Wexter said:

pleasehello said:

Wexter said:

The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.

Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.

You kind of just described the OT. We never really see the effect of the Empire on the galaxy at large. Only how it relates to the rebellion and our main characters. The only reason we know of the Empire’s reach is because it’s called “the Empire”.

This is simply not true. We see the Empire terrorize the citizens of Tatooine and Bespin, having spies and mercenaries everywhere, shattering the residues of the old Republic with the dissolution of Senate and destruction of Alderaan, which itself is supposed to be a clear message towards potentially dissenting systems.

Sure, the First Order somehow built the SKB, but that was supposedly a one-off device with no clear follow-up and nobody really reacts to the obliteration of several systems. My point still stands.

Almost everything you mentioned has a 1:1 counterpart in the sequel trilogy.

Like I said, it doesn’t make the ST galaxy any more comprehensible, but the two are completely comparable.

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DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.