Sign In

Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 149

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Hal 9000 said:

I haven’t heard this come up, but if the Sith could muster “the largest fleet the galaxy has ever known” with full compliment seemingly from the resources of their own little planet, then why didn’t they do that pre-TPM? Why did the Sith need to carefully infiltrate the existing government and pull strings to secure an army? Couldn’t they have just taken over the galaxy by military force as TLJ implies the First Order was in the process of doing before Palpatine appeared and declared the First Order basically pointless?

I was confused about this as well. According to the visual dictionary for TROS, the Sith fleet was manufactured by Kuat shipyards. Apparently some of the Sith cultists worked at Kuat engineering and smuggled parts to Exegol. This kinda makes sense, though I don’t get why the fleet can’t navigate from Exegol despite all these ships going back and forth for 35 years, delivering parts.

Author
Time

It just doesn’t make any sense.

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

Author
Time

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

Author
Time

If only the Force Dyad was essential to the plot and Palpatine’s scheme. Then the long wait in the evil lair would have been leading up to Rey and Kylo showing up fully trained, to service him in whatever way. That’s the frustrating part of all the ST; a logical script doctor would solve much of this.

Yub Nub for life

Author
Time

You know, thinking about it, the “Snoke is a literal puppet of Palpatine” isn’t really supported by the text of the film. Palpatine says “Snoke trained you well” and “I made Snoke.” If Palpatine was just puppeting Snoke, he would have said something like “You were trained well” and “I am Snoke.” I think were supposed to believe he was pulling the strings, but not to a literal degree.

Author
Time

That is true, but I think what supports the puppet Snoke idea is that Papa Palpy says he’s been every voice inside his head, including Snoke’s.

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

That is true, but I think what supports the puppet Snoke idea is that Papa Palpy says he’s been every voice inside his head, including Snoke’s.

Sure, but again he’s only saying the voices inside his head. That’s a key distinction I think. Coupled with the other two lines I find it hard to buy that Snoke was a literal puppet, especially when you consider that’s not something we’ve ever really seen in the films - besides arguably TROS where Palpatine is seemingly puppeting his own corpse. But in that case, why would Palpatine need to puppet someone like Snoke? It seems more likely that sort of control is beyond his power, and Snoke was merely a pawn, rather than a puppet.

Author
Time

Snoke was CGI.

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

I don’t think that’s even close to being this film’s biggest problem.

Author
Time

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified. The bad storytelling of the prequels and sequels have desensitized people to what Star Wars used to be.

And also, if the emotional heights of TROS are Chewie getting a medal and “Rey Skywalker,” then I prefer the story to at least make sense.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I know Star Wars has always been about the emotion, the themes, the archetypes, and world building has been secondary. However, this new story seems aggressively stupid when it comes to setting itself up.

Bad guy re-emerges via mysterious means. Already mysteriously has even bigger evil forces. Seemingly could
have done so before the time of Episode I.

This is supposed to be the final chapter. If it were episode 57 out of what would eventually be known to be 628, having bad guy show up out of nowhere in order to prompt an interesting character thing might work. Doctor Who does it well. But to pull this kind of thing in what is supposed to be episode 9/9 when everything about Palpatine save for his legacy already felt totally final, and not to give any sort of story credence to him or his infinite fleet while implying the First Order (which were comically overpowered in the previous movie) he set up by proxy was a pointless preamble he didn’t need is insulting to whatever sense of integrity the overall story had in terms of content.

Hey, maybe the content never mattered. But one thing the OT offered was a sense of sincerity about archetypes playing themselves out in stylized and weird ways. It invited you to take it earnestly. Here in TROS in particular, it is impossible to do so.

The best answer is what I’ve heard a clear consensus of: don’t think about these absolute basic problems (which only arise when reckoning based on prior Star Wars, aside from any outside sense of logic or expectation), just shove popcorn in your face and enjoy the jokes and flashing lights. It doesn’t need to make sense, and it’s good they didn’t try to do anything. Just pretend you’re at Disneyland riding Star Tours. And, hey, you were foolish to get excited by what was promised: a conclusion to the 9-part Skywalker story. All you should have wanted was animated window dressing that made you feel amused during the movie’s runtime.

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

Author
Time

Hal 9000 said:

The best answer is what I’ve heard a clear consensus of: don’t think about these absolute basic problems (which only arise when reckoning based on prior Star Wars, aside from any outside sense of logic or expectation), just shove popcorn in your face and enjoy the jokes and flashing lights. It doesn’t need to make sense, and it’s good they didn’t try to do anything. Just pretend you’re at Disneyland riding Star Tours. And, hey, you were foolish to get excited by what was promised: a conclusion to the 9-part Skywalker story. All you should have wanted was animated window dressing that made you feel amused during the movie’s runtime.

Sadly, that’s exactly what some people expect us to do. Like I said, people are so desensitized by the prequels and sequels that they’ve forgotten that Star Wars used to be good.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Divergent Universes
Dreams of a Randy Git-Fiend

Author
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight.

That’s all real life stuff. I couldn’t care less about the movies being “unrealistic.” But when a story breaks its own rules, that’s when I draw the line.

Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

People have different tastes. I don’t hold it against him.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

My interpretation of the Final Order was that this was something Palpatine wasn’t able to start developing until he had the resources of the Empire at his disposal (at least that was what I took the Star Destroyer design to imply). I don’t know what the visual dictionary says so I can’t comment on that. Really the main thing that bothers me is it just feels redundant. Wasn’t the First Order the same idea - a mysterious resurrected Imperial force that had been building power in the unknown regions as part of Palpatine’s contingency?

They didn’t seem to have a solid grasp on the interplay of the two forces, and they could have done something interesting with some friction between them if perhaps Palpatine claimed some ownership of the First Order’s existing fleet and they weren’t necessarily on board. They could have at least made it seem like they were part of the same plan. The First Order comes in to destabilize the galaxy, the Final Order finishes the job (but Kylo becoming Supreme Leader complicated matters).

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

My interpretation of the Final Order was that this was something Palpatine wasn’t able to start developing until he had the resources of the Empire at his disposal (at least that was what I took the Star Destroyer design to imply). I don’t know what the visual dictionary says so I can’t comment on that. Really the main thing that bothers me is it just feels redundant. Wasn’t the First Order the same idea - a mysterious resurrected Imperial force that had been building power in the unknown regions as part of Palpatine’s contingency?

They didn’t seem to have a solid grasp on the interplay of the two forces, and they could have done something interesting with some friction between them if perhaps Palpatine claimed some ownership of the First Order’s existing fleet and they weren’t necessarily on board. They could have at least made it seem like they were part of the same plan. The First Order comes in to destabilize the galaxy, the Final Order finishes the job (but Kylo becoming Supreme Leader complicated matters).

I think it would have been interesting, if the Resistance, and First Order were forced to work together to defeat the Final Order. The arrival of the good guy fleet felt just a little too convenient for me. I think it would have been far more interesting, if rather than being a one note bad guy, general Pryde actually cares about his troops, and the fate of the galaxy, and has the FO come to the aid of the Resistance in their hour of greatest need.

Author
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

There’s a difference between a movie having a sci-fi/fantasy vibe where the science isn’t very accurate, and a movie being incomprehensible.

Author
Time

Cthulhunicron said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

There’s a difference between a movie having a sci-fi/fantasy vibe where the science isn’t very accurate, and a movie being incomprehensible.

EXACTLY. I don’t understand why people don’t get this. There’s a difference between a story bending reality to achieve a point, and a story sacrificing logic because it looks cool.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Cthulhunicron said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

Need I answer every question? Ok…

  1. Palpatine has a Sith Cult caring for him. I would imagine this same cult brought him from the Death Star (which we can see survived in part).

  2. Palpatine has the Empire’s resources while he as building the fleet. Probably with the intention of using them for the Empire before it died. The First Order was the remnants of Imperial Officers in the unknown regions, they didn’t have the same resources.

  3. The fleet might be big but it has a skeleton crew. Hence the need to leave by transmitter. This wasn’t a problem when there weren’t x-wings attacking.

  4. Physics has never mattered before: the Death Star can explode in any which way it wants.

  5. The dagger seems to have been a route for Ochi to reach Exogel. This makes sense because how else would be reach the hidden planet. Stuff like this shouldn’t be explained in flashbacks. It diminishes the story’s focus.

  6. Hux dislikes Ren. He wants him to lose power so he can take over. This is clearly established throughout the trilogy.

The point of this isn’t to answer random plot holes but to show the story is logical, it just requires a great deal of thinking and filling in blanks afterwards. The pacing is rushed to tell the full narrative. This fine by me if it means telling a more engaging story. No one wants to suddenly dive into a wookiepedia article as Palpatine explains all his friends on Kuat Drive Yards, which then have no relevance to the plot. What matters is he’s back and the galaxy needs to stop him.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

Author
Time

Maybe we can get a Disney+ series about Rose and R2-D2 on that base during most of the movie. A series of little vignettes.

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

Author
Time

OutboundFlight said:

Cthulhunicron said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

  1. Palpatine has a Sith Cult caring for him. I would imagine this same cult brought him from the Death Star (which we can see survived in part).

Possibly, but it isn’t established in the movie. That’s the main problem with this trilogy, the over-reliance on EU books to tell the story the movies should have told.

  1. The fleet might be big but it has a skeleton crew. Hence the need to leave by transmitter. This wasn’t a problem when there weren’t x-wings attacking.

The fleet doesn’t have a skeleton crew. The movie very clearly showed people manning the Star Destroyers, so that argument is invalid.

  1. Physics has never mattered before: the Death Star can explode in any which way it wants.

It isn’t a problem with physics, it’s a problem with continuity. ROTJ very clearly showed the Death Star exploding into a huge fireball, you can’t retcon that.

  1. The dagger seems to have been a route for Ochi to reach Exogel. This makes sense because how else would be reach the hidden planet. Stuff like this shouldn’t be explained in flashbacks. It diminishes the story’s focus.

You’d think Ochi would know the route to Exogol because he’s friends with Palpatine, not because of some dumb hint that makes him look like the Riddler.

  1. Hux dislikes Ren. He wants him to lose power so he can take over. This is clearly established throughout the trilogy.

Yes, but that still doesn’t justify actively helping the Resistance. You’d think he’d start a sub-faction in the First Order, not help the heroes win.

The point of this isn’t to answer random plot holes but to show the story is logical, it just requires a great deal of thinking and filling in blanks afterwards. The pacing is rushed to tell the full narrative. This fine by me if it means telling a more engaging story. No one wants to suddenly dive into a wookiepedia article as Palpatine explains all his friends on Kuat Drive Yards, which then have no relevance to the plot. What matters is he’s back and the galaxy needs to stop him.

We don’t want a highly detailed explanation, you’re making a straw-man. We just want a simple explanation. A few throwaway lines, or a flashback scene. Something, ANYTHING to allow this movie to make sense.

You can like this movie, I’m not trying to say you can’t, but don’t pretend the movie makes sense when it clearly doesn’t.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

OutboundFlight said:

Cthulhunicron said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

Need I answer every question? Ok…

  1. Palpatine has a Sith Cult caring for him. I would imagine this same cult brought him from the Death Star (which we can see survived in part).

  2. Palpatine has the Empire’s resources while he as building the fleet. Probably with the intention of using them for the Empire before it died. The First Order was the remnants of Imperial Officers in the unknown regions, they didn’t have the same resources.

  3. The fleet might be big but it has a skeleton crew. Hence the need to leave by transmitter. This wasn’t a problem when there weren’t x-wings attacking.

  4. Physics has never mattered before: the Death Star can explode in any which way it wants.

  5. The dagger seems to have been a route for Ochi to reach Exogel. This makes sense because how else would be reach the hidden planet. Stuff like this shouldn’t be explained in flashbacks. It diminishes the story’s focus.

  6. Hux dislikes Ren. He wants him to lose power so he can take over. This is clearly established throughout the trilogy.

The point of this isn’t to answer random plot holes but to show the story is logical, it just requires a great deal of thinking and filling in blanks afterwards. The pacing is rushed to tell the full narrative. This fine by me if it means telling a more engaging story. No one wants to suddenly dive into a wookiepedia article as Palpatine explains all his friends on Kuat Drive Yards, which then have no relevance to the plot. What matters is he’s back and the galaxy needs to stop him.

  1. Every person I talk to about this movie has a different head canon regarding how he was brought back. I’m not saying it can’t be explained, I’m saying the movie doesn’t give an explanation. I’ve heard other people say that they thought the ROTJ emperor was a clone. I’ve heard other people theorize that all the Palpatines we’ve seen so far are clones, and the Exegol Palpatine has been pulling the strings the whole time.

2 & 3. Again, it’s vague and sloppy, and everybody seems to have different interpretations because none of it is clear. You’re saying they had the resources of the entire empire to build the fleet. Other people seem to think they only have the resources of one planet. My thinking is that they can’t have all the resources of the empire, since the empire was defeated in ROTJ. The visual dictionary offers a somewhat logical explanation about ships secretly delivering parts, but if that’s true, I don’t see why the fleet would be reliant on a navigational beacon to leave the planet. They can build hundreds of Death Star lasers, but they can’t put navigation computers on the ships? Clearly all the transports bringing supplies had the capability to navigate all the cosmic hazards surrounding Exegol, so it seems like it would be easy to transfer that capability to the Star destroyers. Rey sends the data from the holochron to the rebels and they send it to all the ships that show up at the end. They all leave the planet with no issues. Since the Sith eternal already have this navigation data, by the movie’s own rules, it should be super easy to just enter it into the computers on the ships.

I also don’t get the point of all the secrecy. The First Order rose from empire loyalists who were already loyal to Palpatine. Ben Solo was a Vader fanboy, you think he’d be overjoyed to find out he was serving Palpatine.

  1. The explosion was so huge, it looked like the largest pieces would be the size of city blocks. The piece we see in the ocean is so huge, the equatorial trench and part of the dish are still intact. We literally saw the dish while it exploded, and none of the pieces flying off were big enough to match the piece we see in the ocean.

  2. So you think Palpatine made the dagger? I thought Ochi went to Exegol to speak to Palpatine before killing Rey’s parents? Why wouldn’t he have the holochron with him? Wouldn’t he need it on his ship to get to Exegol? Still doesn’t explain why the dagger is shaped to match the skyline of the wreckage. Wreckage which is probably shifting over time. Why doesn’t Palpatine just say “find my throne room in the wreckage. The holochron’s in there.” Why even bother with the dagger?

  3. Hux doesn’t need to save Poe and Finn. He can let them be killed and he can continue to send info to the resistance. It’s just there to be a cheap twist and a way for the heroes to escape, but it doesn’t really make sense when you think about it.

I remembered a few more: Rey flies the X-wing despite it being submerged underwater for years. Palpatine’s force lightning is now powerful enough to take out an entire fleet. Why does he even need Star Destroyers? Why does he tell Kylo to kill Rey if he was planning on taking her body? How does Rey hear the voices of all those Jedi if, canonically, the only Jedis who could become Force ghosts are Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luke, Yoda, and Leia? Why does Rey remember seeing Ochi’s ship leave Jakku? I thought the ship in the flashback was leaving her behind. Did Ochi put her on Jakku? I thought Ochi was supposed to kill her.

Author
Time

Again, the big problem with devoting so much time and energy to a lot of these little fiddly details in the plotting is that even if those questions were answered satisfactorily within the narrative - it still wouldn’t be a good movie, would it?

If I put together a 1000 piece puzzle perfectly, but the picture I assemble with no missing pieces is of a broken mirror reflecting a junk-strewn yard… does it matter that all these fiddly details are there and accounted for?

the only notion I want to push back a little on in this ongoing discussion is that there are somehow ironclad “Star Wars Specific” rules that got broken here, and there aren’t, really. There are plenty of storytelling and filmmaking mistakes, and the normal sorts of things that happen to make ANY movie mediocre and uninteresting to sit through, but I don’t think most of The Rise of Skywalkers’ sins are specifically Star Wars related, and I don’t think if many of these grievances had been fixed prior to release, the reception would have been markedly different.

Star Wars tends to break its own “rules” with every movie anyway, and that’s good, honestly. They’re completely made up in the first place. So long as you can cleverly break them, with satisfactorily emotional results (even if the result is as surface level as “whoa, cool!”) then breaking “Star Wars” rules isn’t a big problem at all. Nobody’s going to Star Wars movies to see its rules upheld. They’re going to Star Wars to be emotionally engaged by the story being told. And that’s not really happening with Rise of Skywalker for a fair amount of its viewers.

Author
Time

Broom Kid said:
Nobody’s going to Star Wars movies to see its rules upheld. They’re going to Star Wars to be emotionally engaged by the story being told. And that’s not really happening with Rise of Skywalker for a fair amount of its viewers.

Indeed. I understand why some people say Star Wars is emotional, not logical. But at least the OT actually had emotional scenes. With TROS, the entire movie is focused on the plot, so the plot should at least make sense. But the plot of TROS doesn’t make any sense, either as a Star Wars movie or as a regular movie.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.