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Episode II has the best story of the prequels. Discuss.

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 (Edited)

So, I got into a discussion on my FB page about which of the prequels is the least terrible and I said that to me Ep3 is probably the most painful to watch - for Episode 1 I still have certain nostalgia, because I saw it as a kid and Ep2 is so bad it’s funny - kind of like Plan 9 From Outer Space. Ep3 is just sad - Anakin’s turn to the dark side is totally unrealistic and lame, the fights are so long and over-choreographed that they are boring and it ruins Darth Vader.

Then someone made the argument that at least Episode III is the only one that has a coherent story. But I disagree. As far as story coherence, I’d say Ep2 is actually the best (well, least terrible). It’s a story that can be retold as a coherent narrative most easily - let me try here:

After an assassination attempt on a galactic senator a young Jedi is tasked with protecting her, while his master follows the trail of the assassins only to discover a conspiracy of galactic proportions and get captured. Meanwhile the senator and her Jedi protector go into hiding and fall in love but when the young Jedi discovers that his master has been captured he flies to his aid and our heroes are rejoined for an epic final battle.

Written out like this, it actually sounds pretty great, too bad it was so poorly executed. But what I’m trying to show there is that there is an actual plot to episode II (change the Jedi in that outline I wrote up there into private investigators and it would make for a pretty good film noir), whereas the other two movies are basically just a series of events.

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The existentially horrific possibility is You may actually be right.

I think I’m going to crawl into a corner and suck my thumb until I fall into an uneasy sleep, now.

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I almost agree. In its current form I actually think AOTC is probably the worst of the bunch, but the story is pretty solid, perhaps more so than the other two.

The only issue is the assassination itself. If Padme is fighting for peace in the Senate and opposing the creation of a Republic army, why would the Separatists want her dead? The film offers the explanation that Gunray wants he dead out of revenge, which is pretty weak. The other interpretation is that Dooku and Palpatine want her dead because they need the clones to kill the Jedi. But if this is the case, shouldn’t the Jedi catch on? Shouldn’t they be suspicious about the assassination and the clone order?

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 (Edited)

It is a terrible movie without a doubt - I was just pointing out that when I thought about it from the point of having a coherent story, I came to the conclusion that the basic outline of the plot is much stronger in Episode II than the other two prequels. The things you mention are totally true but that’s all part of how badly this pretty solid story-line was executed.

This also shows that Lucas has always been a great idea-man - he had a lot of help writing the script for Star Wars and for the other two he only wrote the story outline and had someone else write the actual script and direct and if he did the same with Episode 2, it could have been a great film.

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Episode 1 is stupid, I STILL have no clue what happened in that movie, it’s just a series of colourful moving images. But JW’s score is wonderful.

Episode 3 is horrible. Everything about it is horrible. The effects, the acting, the story, the editing… I have no idea how can anybody say it’s the best one, but I accept that people have different tastes. I mean I know quite intelligent people who like JJTrek and the Transformers movies 😃

Episode 2 is pretty dumb too, but to be honest it was the only prequel I enjoyed when I’ve seen it for the first time. It had some really great action ( I STILL love the arena sequence - at least before the other Jedi come there), but the story is not very well thought out and poorly executed. The Padme / Anakin storyline is just a wasted opportunity. Wouldn’t it be so much better if Lucas did something similar as Cameron did with his Kyle Reese / Sarah Connor storyline? The story is basically the same - a crazy killer wants to kill the hot chick, the soldier protects her and falls in love with her.

Anyway, all 3 movies are stupid, but Episode 2 has probably the best story.

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For all intents and purposes, Revenge of the Sith SHOULD have the better story, since so many important things are supposed to happen in it. However, Attack of the Clones might be better focused on what it’s trying to do.

“After a time, you may find that having, is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.” - Spock

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Harmy said:
This also shows that Lucas has always been a great idea-man - he had a lot of help writing the script for Star Wars and for the other two he only wrote the story outline and had someone else write the actual script and direct and if he did the same with Episode 2, it could have been a great film.

I agree that AOTC had overall a good storyline. I think it could have been a very enjoyable film if the main character was a decent person. However Anakin was written as an extremely annoying jerk. That, combined with whiny and teen-rage acting, made the film unbearable.

Harmy said:
This also shows that Lucas has always been a great idea-man - he had a lot of help writing the script for Star Wars and for the other two he only wrote the story outline and had someone else write the actual script and direct and if he did the same with Episode 2, it could have been a great film.

I must point out that in AOTC Lucas actually had a screenwriter helping him. In addition, Lucas was involved in writing the screenplay of ESB and ROTJ.

真実

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Two Jedi attempt to resolve a brewing conflict between a peaceful planet and an aggressive interplanetary corporation, but soon see signs that sinister forces may be at work. After a long and ultimately futile journey across the galaxy to garner support for their cause, a final showdown defeats both the corporation’s military and their shadowy master’s powerful henchman. But the identity of the mastermind of these events and his true purpose remains mysterious…

Unfortunately, “long and ultimately futile journey” is a bit of an understatement.

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To collect the synopses in one place:

Episode 1:
Two Jedi attempt to resolve a brewing conflict between a peaceful planet and an aggressive interplanetary corporation, but soon see signs that sinister forces may be at work. After a long and ultimately futile journey across the galaxy to garner support for their cause, a final showdown defeats both the corporation’s military and their shadowy master’s powerful henchman. But the identity of the mastermind of these events and his true purpose remains mysterious…

Episode 2:
After an assassination attempt on a galactic senator a young Jedi is tasked with protecting her, while his master follows the trail of the assassins only to discover a conspiracy of galactic proportions and gets captured. Meanwhile the senator and her Jedi protector go into hiding and fall in love but when the young Jedi discovers that his master has been captured he flies to his aid and our heroes are rejoined for an epic final battle.

Episode 3:
Two Jedi accomplish a daring rescue of the leader of the Galactic Republic, but at the cost of the young Jedi’s conscience. As his master fights to end the galactic war, the young Jedi succumbs to the temptations of the galactic leader, who lures him into a Faustian bargain with the promise of power. The leader then reveals himself as the mastermind of the entire war, thus ending it and turning the Republic into an Empire. In the final battle, the villains are revealed, and the heroes flee.

I think the contractual survival of Yoda and Obi-wan is the worst thing about Episode 3, even more than Anakin’s confusing fall, since it paints them as stupid and cowardly. True Heroism and villainy don’t exist in this film since the characters are so muddled.

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 (Edited)

Harmy said:

So, I got into a discussion on my FB page about which of the prequels is the least terrible and I said that to me Ep3 is probably the most painful to watch - for Episode 1 I still have certain nostalgia, because I saw it as a kid and Ep2 is so bad it’s funny - kind of like Plan 9 From Outer Space. Ep3 is just sad - Anakin’s turn to the dark side is totally unrealistic and lame, the fights are so long and over-choreographed that they are boring and it ruins Darth Vader.

Then someone made the argument that at least Episode III is the only one that has a coherent story. But I disagree. As far as story coherence, I’d say Ep2 is actually the best (well, least terrible). It’s a story that can be retold as a coherent narrative most easily - let me try here:

After an assassination attempt on a galactic senator a young Jedi is tasked with protecting her, while his master follows the trail of the assassins only to discover a conspiracy of galactic proportions and get captured. Meanwhile the senator and her Jedi protector go into hiding and fall in love but when the young Jedi discovers that his master has been captured he flies to his aid and our heroes are rejoined for an epic final battle.

Written out like this, it actually sounds pretty great, too bad it was so poorly executed. But what I’m trying to show there is that there is an actual plot to episode II (change the Jedi in that outline I wrote up there into private investigators and it would make for a pretty good film noir), whereas the other two movies are basically just a series of events.

How can someone who’s done such great work recognized by the entire fandom, have such incredibly stupid opinions? Unbelievable. So much stupid in this thread, in fact all of it probably…

Can’t believe I used to hold similar views a couple years ago. (Not quite as bad, but that’s no excuse is it.)

You know I’m sorta angry cause I was having debates elsewhere, anyway, take ker byyyee!

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OmitWandKenopf said:

Harmy said:

So, I got into a discussion on my FB page about which of the prequels is the least terrible and I said that to me Ep3 is probably the most painful to watch - for Episode 1 I still have certain nostalgia, because I saw it as a kid and Ep2 is so bad it’s funny - kind of like Plan 9 From Outer Space. Ep3 is just sad - Anakin’s turn to the dark side is totally unrealistic and lame, the fights are so long and over-choreographed that they are boring and it ruins Darth Vader.

Then someone made the argument that at least Episode III is the only one that has a coherent story. But I disagree. As far as story coherence, I’d say Ep2 is actually the best (well, least terrible). It’s a story that can be retold as a coherent narrative most easily - let me try here:

After an assassination attempt on a galactic senator a young Jedi is tasked with protecting her, while his master follows the trail of the assassins only to discover a conspiracy of galactic proportions and get captured. Meanwhile the senator and her Jedi protector go into hiding and fall in love but when the young Jedi discovers that his master has been captured he flies to his aid and our heroes are rejoined for an epic final battle.

Written out like this, it actually sounds pretty great, too bad it was so poorly executed. But what I’m trying to show there is that there is an actual plot to episode II (change the Jedi in that outline I wrote up there into private investigators and it would make for a pretty good film noir), whereas the other two movies are basically just a series of events.

How can someone who’s done such great work recognized by the entire fandom, have such incredibly stupid opinions? Unbelievable. So much stupid in this thread, in fact all of it probably…

Can’t believe I used to hold similar views a couple years ago. (Not quite as bad, but that’s no excuse is it.)

You know I’m sorta angry cause I was having debates elsewhere, anyway, take ker byyyee!

Insulting a valued member of this forum isn’t the best way to start around here.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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OmitWandKenopf said:

Harmy said:

So, I got into a discussion on my FB page about which of the prequels is the least terrible and I said that to me Ep3 is probably the most painful to watch - for Episode 1 I still have certain nostalgia, because I saw it as a kid and Ep2 is so bad it’s funny - kind of like Plan 9 From Outer Space. Ep3 is just sad - Anakin’s turn to the dark side is totally unrealistic and lame, the fights are so long and over-choreographed that they are boring and it ruins Darth Vader.

Then someone made the argument that at least Episode III is the only one that has a coherent story. But I disagree. As far as story coherence, I’d say Ep2 is actually the best (well, least terrible). It’s a story that can be retold as a coherent narrative most easily - let me try here:

After an assassination attempt on a galactic senator a young Jedi is tasked with protecting her, while his master follows the trail of the assassins only to discover a conspiracy of galactic proportions and get captured. Meanwhile the senator and her Jedi protector go into hiding and fall in love but when the young Jedi discovers that his master has been captured he flies to his aid and our heroes are rejoined for an epic final battle.

Written out like this, it actually sounds pretty great, too bad it was so poorly executed. But what I’m trying to show there is that there is an actual plot to episode II (change the Jedi in that outline I wrote up there into private investigators and it would make for a pretty good film noir), whereas the other two movies are basically just a series of events.

How can someone who’s done such great work recognized by the entire fandom, have such incredibly stupid opinions? Unbelievable. So much stupid in this thread, in fact all of it probably…

Can’t believe I used to hold similar views a couple years ago. (Not quite as bad, but that’s no excuse is it.)

You know I’m sorta angry cause I was having debates elsewhere, anyway, take ker byyyee!

Dude… Really?

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Don’t feed the troll. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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LOL, I’m not even sure, if he thinks that I’m stupid because I think the prequels are terrible or because I think the basic story-line of AOTC is good 😄

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    IF YOU DON’T FIND WHAT YOU’RE LOOKING FOR THERE, TRY ASKING IN THE APPROPRIATE THREADS - MOST REGULAR POSTERS KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS AND SOMEONE WILL LIKELY BE ABLE TO HELP YOU.
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Almost definitely the former. He’s just one of those kids who keeps making new accounts to defend the PT.

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Honestly the plots of all three of these movies are relatively straightforward. It’s the execution that muddles them. I kind of differ from a lot of people here in that I think 99% of the problems with the prequels are execution problems, not conceptual ones.

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Octorox said:

Honestly the plots of all three of these movies are relatively straightforward. It’s the execution that muddles them. I kind of differ from a lot of people here in that I think 99% of the problems with the prequels are execution problems, not conceptual ones.

Well Anakin being an annoying jerk instead of good person was a conceptual problem. And him being an annoying jerk is pretty much the only real problem of PT as far as I am concerned. Of course bad acting and bad dialogue concerning his character amplified things, but in the end it was a conceptual problem to begin with.

真実

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imperialscum said:

Octorox said:

Honestly the plots of all three of these movies are relatively straightforward. It’s the execution that muddles them. I kind of differ from a lot of people here in that I think 99% of the problems with the prequels are execution problems, not conceptual ones.

Well Anakin being an annoying jerk instead of good person was a conceptual problem. And him being an annoying jerk is pretty much the only real problem of PT as far as I am concerned. Of course bad acting and bad dialogue concerning his character amplified things, but in the end it was a conceptual problem to begin with.

Lucas’s concept was not to make him an annoying jerk however. He wanted Anakin to be hotheaded, reckless, and a little power hungry - all of which makes sense for the character. He just executed it in such a (poor) way that Anakin came across as an annoying jerk.

I agree for the most part that the concepts worked, but ultimately the execution fails the concepts as a lot of the most interesting stuff is barely touched upon and the structure and characterization is all wrong.

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DominicCobb said:
Lucas’s concept was not to make him an annoying jerk however. He wanted Anakin to be hotheaded, reckless, and a little power hungry - all of which makes sense for the character. He just executed it in such a (poor) way that Anakin came across as an annoying jerk.

Those three things you mentioned are the ingredients of “annoying jerk” cocktail. And you forgot to add “ungrateful” and “jealous” to the mix. All these negative characteristics plays an important role in the storyline of AOTC and ROTS, therefore they are clearly on a conceptual level.

Execution just amplified those things and added whining and teen-rage through acting/dialogue.

真実

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In moderation a character with those traits can still be likable. But I see those qualities as natural for a young Vader.