Doctor Who — Page 31

Bingowings said:

Look Who's back... He is such a fibber (mini-episode time).

wow,  we now know how the 8th doctor "died".   Now what we need is John Hurt regenerating to Christopher Ecceston.

incorrect now.   Hurt is 9, Ecceston is now 10.

One thing I just noticed about the mini-episode.   When the 8th Doctor is lists his companions,  he doesn't list Dr. Grace Holloway.

These were obviously meant to be previous lives of the Time Lord called the Doctor.

And yet Susan's grandfather calls himself the First Doctor and the cricket player calls himself the Fifth.

This chap is the same Time Lord but calls himself the Valeyard.

It's a very clever retcon because it puts back some of the lost mystery of the character.

Grace never really traveled with the Doctor, if you include her you have to include Jackie Tyler as a companion.

I'm impressed by the BBC's ability to keep their surprise Doctor Who projects under wraps. The lost episode rumors weren't specific or credible until about a week before the official announcement. And this just came out of bloody nowhere. Hope there are more surprises like this... Would really have loved to see Matt Smith regenerate completely unexpectedly, I guess they can do that when it's Peter Capaldi's turn.

They've done Night, and they're going to release Day: I hope they do Dawn of the Doctor :)

Going by the last few weeks I wouldn't be surprised if Peter Capaldi is Doctor for five minutes and becomes a chinese old woman with a beard for the rest of the episode.

They are clearly meant to be the same Time Lord as the Doctor and not Morbius.

The Doctor is loosing the duel, he is regressing through his incarnations and the images come after he has regressed to Hartnell so they are previous incarnations of the same man.

Morbius asks with surprise how many lives the Doctor has had.

If they had come when the Doctor began to win it would make narrative sense that they are Morbius.

It can't be a coincidence that the War Doctor is born in the same place.

Don't forget this is also meant to be the same person :

Sure is or The Watcher as he was referred to (Doctor 4.5).

I think so.

Bingowings said:

These were obviously meant to be previous lives of the Time Lord called the Doctor.

And yet Susan's grandfather calls himself the First Doctor and the cricket player calls himself the Fifth.

I don't think you can say for certain that those guys are previous lives of Doctor from before Hartnell.   I think from the way Hartnell's self(aren't all of them Susan's grandfather?)  and Davidson's self talk in "The Five Doctors", it is pretty certain that Hartnell is the first doctor "The original you might say" and Davidson is the fifth "regeneration?  fourth.  So there are five of me now"  

And if so guys are doctors, why didn't Borusa pick them up as well with the time scoop?

As for the Valeyard, he comes in between the Doctor's 12th and 13th self.

As for the guy that helped Tom Baker's self regenerate, I don't he is meant to be considered one of the doctor's lives. 

And what are you saying was reconned?

Warbler said:

Bingowings said:

These were obviously meant to be previous lives of the Time Lord called the Doctor.

And yet Susan's grandfather calls himself the First Doctor and the cricket player calls himself the Fifth.

I don't think you can say for certain that those guys are previous lives of Doctor from before Hartnell.   I think from the way Hartnell's self(aren't all of them Susan's grandfather?)  and Davidson's self talk in "The Five Doctors", it is pretty certain that Hartnell is the first doctor "The original you might say" and Davidson is the fifth "regeneration?  fourth.  So there are five of me now"  

And if so guys are doctors, why didn't Borusa pick them up as well with the time scoop?

As for the Valeyard, he comes in between the Doctor's 12th and 13th self.

As for the guy that helped Tom Baker's self regenerate, I don't he is meant to be considered one of the doctor's lives. 

And what are you saying was reconned?

The implication from the mini-episode and the line in the trailer is The Doctor is doesn't always tell people about all of his incarnations and not all of them are called the Doctor.

So Hartnell/Hurndall play the first Doctor but not necessarily that Time Lord's first incarnation (he may have had many lives before where he wasn't called the Doctor).

In The Brain Of Morbius it's pretty obvious those were meant to be earlier incarnations of the Doctor but Robert Holmes chose to forget or plain forgot this when he wrote The Deadly Assassin (creating the 13 incarnations rule).

I find it hard to imagine he just forgot as Robert Holmes actually played one of the Morbius Doctors (he is the third on the bottom row wearing a tricorn).

The Watcher is the Doctor but he is an interstitial incarnation (Doctor 4.5).

Why didn't Borusa pick up the sixth Doctor or the 13th (the Valeyard proves this would be possible)?

Maybe he thought that earlier or later incarnations might seek to steal the prize of immortality for themselves (he only chose one living Master, if they were all there the Masters would certainly doublecross Borusa and probably succeed) where as the five Doctor incarnations he chose had already demonstrated a disregard for the concept of immortality.

By having the Warrior incarnation not call himself Doctor it allows for the Morbius Doctors to be the same man as the Doctor without all that messing around with Doctor numbers.

Matt Smith is still the 11th Doctor not the 12th or the 20th.

It has wider implications as in more than one occasion he has mentioned his BBC books companions in adventures with the named companions.

Indeed comic book companions and villains like Frobisher and the Meep have appeared in Big Finish too.

It sort of confirms (without making it legally specific) that the policy of 'everything is canon' as canon.

So Bernice Summerfield and Iris Wildthyme and even Lawrence Miles Faction Paradox are as real as the Slitheen.

Indeed Jean Luc Picard is now canon and Dr Who is a character in a film played by Peter Cushing (inspired by Barbara Wright and Ian 'Chesterfield's' adventures).

Bingowings said:

Warbler said:

Bingowings said:

These were obviously meant to be previous lives of the Time Lord called the Doctor.

And yet Susan's grandfather calls himself the First Doctor and the cricket player calls himself the Fifth.

I don't think you can say for certain that those guys are previous lives of Doctor from before Hartnell.   I think from the way Hartnell's self(aren't all of them Susan's grandfather?)  and Davidson's self talk in "The Five Doctors", it is pretty certain that Hartnell is the first doctor "The original you might say" and Davidson is the fifth "regeneration?  fourth.  So there are five of me now"  

And if so guys are doctors, why didn't Borusa pick them up as well with the time scoop?

As for the Valeyard, he comes in between the Doctor's 12th and 13th self.

As for the guy that helped Tom Baker's self regenerate, I don't he is meant to be considered one of the doctor's lives. 

And what are you saying was reconned?

The implication from the mini-episode and the line in the trailer is The Doctor is doesn't always tell people about all of his incarnations and not all of them are called the Doctor.

it is?

Bingowings said:

In The Brain Of Morbius it's pretty obvious those were meant to be earlier incarnations of the Doctor but Robert Holmes chose to forget or plain forgot this when he wrote The Deadly Assassin (creating the 13 incarnations rule).

the 13 rule makes obvious that these incarnations seen in Morbius are not earlier selves of the doctor,  otherwise when the 7th Doctor was shot in the 1996 movie he would have died as that would have been that timelord's 13th self.

Bingowings said:

Why didn't Borusa pick up the sixth Doctor or the 13th (the Valeyard proves this would be possible)?

when/how did the Valeyard do this?     I think one could argue that the time scope could only pick up past incarnations and not future ones.

Bingowings said:

By having the Warrior incarnation not call himself Doctor it allows for the Morbius Doctors to be the same man as the Doctor without all that messing around with Doctor numbers.

but it doesn't explain the problem with a timelord only having 13 lives.  It is made clear that a timelord only has 13 lives via the problems the Master has had regenerating.  If the Morbius incarnations of the same timelord as the Doctor, he died with the 7th Doctor died.

Bingowings said:

Matt Smith is still the 11th Doctor not the 12th or the 20th.

but he is not the 11th life of that timelord, he is at least the 12th.

It is curious that the teasers seem to be saying that the Doctor's enemy in the 50th Anniversary will be himself.   While the War Doctor(Hurt) might be quite different than the other Doctors, he doesn't come off to me as a villain(although he did do something the Doctor wasn't proud of, the Doctor did agree with done "without choice... in the name of peace and sanity").   Could this mean that the Valeyard will make a return? 

Warbler says :

Is it?

I suggest you watch the Brain Of Morbius sequence again to get the actual intention of the scene and listen to the what the Eleventh Doctor says in the trailer.

Doctor 11 : I've had many faces. Many lives. I don't admit to all of them. There's one life I've tried very hard to forget.

Note, not one of them but all of them suggesting that the Warrior isn't the only incarnation that he hasn't told anyone about and doesn't count as The Doctor.

The other incarnations being Morbius is a bit of fanon invented after The Deadly Assassin added the 13 incarnations rule (like Leia remembering Padme through the Force despite being a baby) but it doesn't make sense in the context of the mind battle and what Morbius says to the Doctor while those faces appear.

Morbius : How far Doctor, how long have you lived?

This little scene on the same planet makes sense of it all.

The Doctor isn't just any Time Lord he can and could always regenerate more than 13 times.

Indeed you could argue (with as much validity and more sense than the Morbius Doctors being Morbius) that the need for the Watcher when becoming Peter Davison and the sense of impending final death when becoming Colin Baker could be the Doctor being unsure if he can go beyond body number 13.

Indeed the Master himself who introduced this problem has regenerated at least 14 times even if you exclude all the times he was walking around wearing someone else's corpse.

Warbler said :

when/how did the Valeyard do this?     I think one could argue that the time scope could only pick up past incarnations and not future ones.

The Valeyard didn't do it the Time Lords did when they scooped up the potential future Doctor from the swirl of the future and offered him the Doctor's remaining incarnations.

It proves Borusa could have picked up future incarnations but he didn't (a wise choice when it comes to some incarnations).

Here's fun...

Bingowings said:

The Doctor isn't just any Time Lord he can and could always regenerate more than 13 times.

please explain.