logo Sign In

Difference in quality of laserdisc players

Author
Date
Author
Time
Post link
Hey guys,
slightly off topic - but definately relevant to laserdisc preservation. I'm wondering, is there a big different between the output video quality of different laserdisc players? I know there's the X0 project, and it uses the best LD player money can buy - but for more mid/low end players is there a big difference between players? What players to people use and how do they compare to other players they've used?

I'm in the UK and have got a Pioneer S315:
http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/pioneer/pioneer_cld-s315/pioneer_cld-s315.htm

If I bought a 929 or a 515 would I see a big picture difference? I got my S315 cheap on ebay a few years ago and it does the job, but I don't think the picture quality is decent on the discs I have (but I don't know anyone else with a LD play to compare with) and the S315 is really, really loud when playing - this whirring is intense. I don't know if that's just something you have to deal with with LD players but it's detrimental to the enjoyment of watching the discs.

Thanks guys,
Andy

Author
Time
Post link
I don't know much about picture quality difference in LD players but I'm pretty sure they are not supposed to be loud when playing. I have a CLD-2950 and I don't hear it when I play a disc. A DVL-919 I once borrowed was quiet too.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Post link
Hey there - thanks for the reply,
My player doesn't have a S-Video out - but it has a scart, which by all accounts will give a better output than S-vid. I read some of the better Pioneer players have a build in comb-filter, does that make much difference?

I'm wondering if my player has something wrong with the motor that it makes such a loud noise then... That's good to know if I got a better player that would at least be sorted.
Author
Time
Post link
[Moved thread to technical discussion section]

Note that the output quality depends mostly on how good the laserdisc pressing is in the first place; some films had excellent transfers, others were very poor.

You do get a better picture with the higher spec players; it's not vast but the reduction in video noise level and jitter is noticeable.

The video on a laserdisc is stored as an analogue composite waveform. Using the SCART connection will not give you any improvement with a laserdisc player because it's still the same composite video signal that's output through the cable.

You might get an improvement using SCART if you have a player that's been modded to output RGB, or use the s-video output, but even then any improvement is dependent on the comb filter in the player being better than the comb filter in your display or capture device.

My D925 is loud when starting up or changing sides, but not particularly loud during normal playback. It's louder than a DVD player, but that's to be expected due to the sheer size of the disc! I don't know whether the noise of your player is inherent in the cheaper models, or whether it might be due to a a motor fault or misalignment.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
Thanks very much for the reply!

It's a D925 I'm planning on tracking down, now I've decided to up my player model. How do you find the player, is the comb filter decent and and is it the one you use for doing your preservations?

I'm now wondering - what would be the best way to connect my LD player to the TV then..?

I watched part of Thunderball last night, and the transfer looked pretty great - compared with other LDs I've watched on it - so definately the tranfer is a massive factor, however there is a glut of visual noise coming form the player - even on the blue startup screen before the disc plays is horribly noisy.

Thanks again for getting back to me!
Author
Time
Post link
The D925 and the earlier 2950 were the best players on the PAL market, but they were only midrange when compared to the top NTSC players like the CLD-97. Do you need to have the facility to play PAL discs?

Yes my D925 was used in my Star Wars transfers. The comb filter is outdated by today's standards, and unfortunately cannot be bypassed (as the D925's composite output is just the "recombined" s-video). Here's a really old thread with screenshots comparing the difference between s-video and composite connections.

What kind of TV do you have? An LCD display will show up noise more than a CRT.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
Hey there. Well I'm in the UK, so playing PAL laserdiscs is a must - also importing a player from the US would be a bit crazy now they've done away with surface mail and I'd likely need a step-down power converter.

Cool - thanks for that link with the comparisons! So do you reckon S-video is the best way to go with the pioneers..?

Right now my TV is a 28" CRT (with the flat screen front), although I'd like to go for a LCD in the near future, but am concerned laserdiscs will look worse on it... Is there a way to make a LD player look better on a LCD?

Yet another question - is there much difference in RF Demodulators for getting the DD/AC3 to work with my 5.1 amp?

Many thanks for answering all my questions - I can't thank you enough, as this is info I've been trying to find out for a long time to little or no avail.
Author
Time
Post link
The PAL laserdisc market was miniscule - the vast majority of discs you will find will be NTSC - but I can understand you not wanting to import a player from the US.

S-video seems to be the way to go with the D925, other players might give different results. This is where we miss Laserman's experience - I remember him mentioning an industrial player that had a very clean composite signal, but can't find the post now.

You might be able to improve the look of laserdisc on an LCD screen by using a separate video processor/scaler. Or you could capture the disc, process the video digitally, encode to MPEG-2 and burn a DVD.

I don't know much about demodulators. In theory, as the AC3 is digital, there should be no quality difference, the only differences being in connections or features like autoswitching. I might look into getting one at some point but they don't turn up very often on eBay. Going back to your first point, only NTSC laserdiscs can have AC3 tracks, PAL discs are PCM or analogue only.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
Thanks again for the info! I have a horrible feeling my current TV doesn't actually have a S-Video input thinking about it... I will try put the composite though and see if it looks better than scart. I'm definately going for a D925, you've sold me on that, am trying on ebay right now for one.

Are separate video processor/scaler's incredibly expensive..? How much worse do you think laserdiscs look on a LCD screen?

Thanks again!
Andy
Author
Time
Post link
Hey guys, I have a question about the CLD-925 and though I'd stick it here. I got a 925 a few months ago and am very happy with it - it's a fantastic player! Annoyingly though the seller said he would send a manual and didn't and I'm still chasing him up about this, and I'm a bit confused about the optical out on the player. Does anyone know what this is used for? I assumed digital stereo tracks could come out of it, but when I have tried I get nothing - seems they can only come out via the RCA stereo outs. What is the opitical out used for? I'm hoping mine isn't broken...

Thanks in advance!
Author
Time
Post link
I think I have the manual for mine somewhere.

IIRC, the optical connection should output digital stereo PCM; however, if you select the analogue track during playback, then there will be no output.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
Thanks for the quick reply!

Hmm... I cycled through the different audio tracks on a LD last night with the optical connection and got no sound, and the disc had digital stereo... This doesn't bode well...
Author
Time
Post link
I think the optical output is for all digital audio output (not just digital PCM but also DTS and DD).

Is your optical out still showing red light?

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Post link
I have a feeling there may have been no red light... Shit, I will check when I get home from work tonight and post when I'm back on Monday. I really hope it's not broken...
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Arnie.d
I think the optical output is for all digital audio output (not just digital PCM but also DTS and DD).
PCM and DTS are output through the optical output, but Dolby Digital (AC-3) is stored in an analogue channel on the disc and is output throught the RF coaxial output (on the 925 - the 2950 doesn't have an AC-3 output).

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
OK, so a massive schoolboy error on my part - the optical out was working fine, but the cable had come loose at the back of the amp, which is inside a cabinet. Ugh. It's all working fine now - However, I did find something curious out. I was playing my Assault On Precinct 13 LD and it (according to the back cover) contains an isolated score and a commentary track on the analogue channels. Now, cycling through the audio channels when coming out of the optical out there is always sound on the channels, even when on analogue, but never the commentary or isolated score. This leads me to believe it does not actually output the analogue channels through the digital out - it just plays the digital stereo. Unfortunately I had to remove my RCA connection to my LD as I can out of inputs on my amp, but I will test this soon to verify this.

Thanks again for your help guys!
Author
Time
Post link
I tried it also, you can only play the digital PCM when using the optical out.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Post link
I got my RCA hooked up againc also, and yeh - you can only get the analogue channels through that, not the optical out.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Moth3r
...
S-video seems to be the way to go with the D925, other players might give different results. This is where we miss Laserman's experience - I remember him mentioning an industrial player that had a very clean composite signal, but can't find the post now.
...


I'm pretty sure it's the Pioneer LD-V8000 (or the V800, a version with IIRC BNC input).

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Arnie.d
I don't know much about picture quality difference in LD players but I'm pretty sure they are not supposed to be loud when playing. I have a CLD-2950 and I don't hear it when I play a disc. A DVL-919 I once borrowed was quiet too.


I have a Pioneer CLD-1750 that is in current use and Pioneer CLD-2950 that needs a small part to attach to the top of the spindle motor where the centre hole of the disc is supported a piece of rubber or rubber ring that sticks to the spindle.

The Pioneer CLD-1750 can a bit noisy due to start up and the acceleration of the discs speed tends to be a little off putting that is until the film starts and as the laser is tracking thou the disc the speed is gradually slowing down and getting quieter as well, I never gave it much thought to take an average SPL db read to see how loud the player is.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/saberwalker.gif
Only the originals from the 70mm six-track Dolby stereo Dolby format 42 will sound better on DVD.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: charliesheen
Hey there - thanks for the reply,
My player doesn't have a S-Video out - but it has a scart, which by all accounts will give a better output than S-vid. I read some of the better Pioneer players have a build in comb-filter, does that make much difference?

I'm wondering if my player has something wrong with the motor that it makes such a loud noise then... That's good to know if I got a better player that would at least be sorted.


My old SONY TV monitor had issues with laserdiscs, they always looked rough and noisy in the image. And here’s an odd thing I have this Toshiba that I picked up for free and thou it gives a slightly better image like that (rainbow colour) effect that you often get, I’m sure there’s a (comb filter) built into the Toshiba.

But here’s that thing? The image on the composite signal looks as if the tuning of the signal is marginal off a bit, and since I don’t know which internal part to look at on the Toshiba I’m a little confused, or eluded?
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/saberwalker.gif
Only the originals from the 70mm six-track Dolby stereo Dolby format 42 will sound better on DVD.
Author
Time
Post link
Does anyone know if the Pioneer LD-V4400 is a worthy player for video/audio capture?

FE<3OT

Author
Time
Post link
Reave, the LD-V4400 is an industrial player that looks similar to the LD-V8000 that Laserman recommended (NTSC-only, single side play, BNC connector).

So, together with a decent comb filter, I would expect it to be capable of good results (but bear in mind I'm no expert, so I'd advise getting a second opinion before purchasing).

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link
Moth3r said:

Reave, the LD-V4400 is an industrial player that looks similar to the LD-V8000 that Laserman recommended (NTSC-only, single side play, BNC connector).

So, together with a decent comb filter, I would expect it to be capable of good results (but bear in mind I'm no expert, so I'd advise getting a second opinion before purchasing).



Do you mean it looks similar in the sense that it has similar specs? The only info I can find about the player is that it has a rock-solid spindle motor, and these specs:

Video Signal
Output Level - 1volt p-p ±10% (75 ohms terminated)
Horizontal Resolution - 425 lines
Signal to Noise Ratio - 50 dB (unweighted EIAJ)

Video Output - (1) RCA jack (75 ohms terminated), BNC composite sync/loop thru

Audio Output (1-set) RCA jacks (auto digital) (2-sets) RCA jacks (auto digital) (1-set) RCA jacks (auto digital)
Digital RS-232C Serial I/F, D-sub 15pin,1.2k/2.4k/4.8k/9.6k (bps)

Pick Up Mechanism - 780 nono-meter Laser Diode

DIGITAL AUDIO (LD & CD)
Output Level -200mVolts ±15%; 1kHz at -20dB
Frequency Response - 4Hz - 20kHz ± 0.5dB
Signal to Noise Ratio - better than 102 dB


Obviously I know what the different outputs are, but the video signal numbers mean nothing to me. Can somebody translate?

Here is the info I could find about the highly regarded LD-V8000, if that helps:

Video output

Level 1 Vp-p nominal, sync negative
Impedance terminated 75 ohm unbalanced
Terminal Pin jack

Audio Output
AUTO/DIGITAL 2 channels (1/L, 2/R)
ANALOG ONLY 2 channels (3/L, 4/R)
Level 500 mV nominal (1 kHz 100% modulation,
50 k-ohm terminated)
Terminal Two RCA jacks
External Sync
Composite Sync
Level MIN: +2 -2 V, MAX: +2 -4 V
Impedance 75-ohm
Terminal
Input BNC jack (2)
Output BNC jack (1)


I already own the unit, I picked it up at a garage sale on a whim because it was mint in a sealed box, and only $20. But if it's not going to put out a preservation-worthy picture, I'll sell it and find a LD-V8000.

Also, about the comb filter. If that is not something that is on board the LD player, do I buy a comb filter unit, or is that a software thing? Excuse my ignorance in this matter :), and thanks for your help!

FE<3OT

Author
Time
Post link
reave said:

Do you mean it looks similar in the sense that it has similar specs?

I mean from the photographs I've seen on laserdiscarchive.co.uk, the actual design of the players looks to be very similar. The main difference is that the LD-V4400 has fewer connectors on the back.

I'm no more knowledgeable than you on the actual specifications.

reave said:

I already own the unit, I picked it up at a garage sale on a whim because it was mint in a sealed box, and only $20.

Sounds like a bargain. Well done!

reave said:

Also, about the comb filter. If that is not something that is on board the LD player, do I buy a comb filter unit, or is that a software thing? Excuse my ignorance in this matter :), and thanks for your help!

Simply put, composite video on a laserdisc is a combination of a luma and a chroma signal. To display the video, or capture into your computer, a comb filter is required to split these signals. Comb filters can be found in TVs, DVD recorders and of course capture devices. Quality varies, poor filters result in "dot crawl". Best results may be obtained with external filters, for example: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280215009270

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here