Did they really need Carbon freezing scene in ESB? — Page 3

imperialscum said:

luckydube56 said:

Not only do they not need the Carbon Freezing scene.

I am not sure whether this is directed at me. The carbon freezing scene itself is necessary. Its main purpose is to show Han being frozen and sent to Jabba. What I was saying is that the (secondary) romance part was not essential. In fact, it greatly diminished Han and Liea character potential for ROTJ while adding very little to ESB. I know some of you adore the "I love you", "I know" moment brought up by Ford... but what I said is true.

 Well that's a matter of opinion.  The romantic tension was initiated in the early part of the film and the question of whether or not the two characters loved each other was answere at the end.  The movie itself ends with a sense of uncertainty about some things and I think this was Lucas and Kadan's way of tying up at least a couple of loose ends.  Some questions, some answers and some revelations.  

I personally dont adore the "I know" moment brought up by Ford.  Many do and for them, its one of the many reasons they love ESB above all others.  In fact, I actually like the first Star Wars film above all but that's neither here nor there.  Whether some of that should have been saved for the next film is inconsequential.  If ROTJ is viewed as a failure or not meeting its potential, then it failed on its own merits; not because ESB didnt leave enough for it.  

In fact, ROTJ began with a reunion and that's the potential emotional impact that wasn't properly seized upon.  Notice how tragic the breaking up of the old gang felt at the end of ESB?  Notice how there was no price paid to get the gang back together in ROTJ?  That's a disconnect.  You can say ESB took too much material away from ROTJ but in actuality, ROTJ washed away the heartbreak of ESB by making the reunion seem easy.

imperialscum said:

As much as I love ESB, it is actually refreshing to see some deviation from the usual "ESB is perfect" attitude.

 It's just my opinion and I am not stating it as fact, but IMO, it a perfect film for its genre. 

I guess what I am trying to say is all movies that I rank at the top of my favorites of all-time are perfect, IMO.  If they were flawed movies or had some flaws, then I wouldn't revisit them so many times and they wouldn't be my favorites.

Movies like Star Wars, Empire, Jaws, Raiders, The Godfather, Field of Dreams, Hoosiers, Rocky, Back to the Future are all perfect movies, IMO, as they are at the top of my list of all-time favorites.  Honestly, whenever I watch them, I really can't find a flaw that really takes me out of the movie or makes me shake my head.

Again, I am not trying to sway someone's opinion about the movie, as I respect if you see flaws in it.  The only movie I truly love and is at the top of my all-time favorites that has a flaw is Superman: The Movie, as I was always very suspect of him turning the earth backwards as that felt like a cop out as he could do anytime after that.

imperialscum said:

Well don't get me wrong. I think ROTJ is fine as it is (same goes for ESB).

Just curious about the "reunion" stuff. What kind of reunion do you have in mind. I hope not the kind they did in LOTR:ROTK that made me want to leave the theatre. :D

 LOL.  Me too.  Frankly I dont have any ideas.  Just critiques.  My ideas are most unwelcome anyways.  If I had good ideas, I wouldnt be some keyboard jockey.

LexX said:

Mavericks said:

imperialscum said:

As much as I love ESB, it is actually refreshing to see some deviation from the usual "ESB is perfect" attitude.

 Exactly. Nothing's perfect.

I don't think anyone here has said otherwise. I don't think it's perfect either, but it still is my favorite movie and I'd still give it a 10/10 as it is.

 I guess you've never heard the phrase "a perfect 10."

Mielr said:

Mavericks said:


And one more thing: why "I love you - I know" was "a comic relief"? There wasn't any "laugh-out-loud" feeling about the whole scene.

Really???

Yeah.

I'm not saying this applies to you, but sometimes, people for whom English is not their first language have also expressed their confusion as to why the line is considered funny (and trust me, I'm not the only person who thinks it's funny...at least I don't think I am!)

 Though English isn't my first language I'm knacky enough in mastering it, it being almost my 2nd native and to the degree when I'm able to understand slightest nuances of its idiomaticity (although the lack of live practice is disturbing). Don't forget that in most cases both thinking and logic are similar among many nations of Europe and America, so it's absolutely possible for any Russian, Lithuanian, German, Serbian, French, Italian, Bulgarian,Spaniard, Latino etc etc etc to figure out what sub-context the English-speaker imports . In this sense the reaction to "I love you - I know" being affective and not laughable is a matter not of nationality dimming the inner essence  but of individual perception. I think this is what appears to be near the reality otherwise there wouldn't be so many fans of the line not only in US/UK but also outside. And on the other side I know that many non-English speaking people had the same type of reaction as you did.

The humor doesn't translate because it's funny not in a literal sense, but because it's not expected. The obvious reply would have been "I love you too". But when he replies "I know" he's basically saying "of course you love me! I'm totally irresistible!", showing his narcissism. It's also funny because he's possibly about to die...but his huge ego still won't allow him to admit he loves Leia

Again, this is a personal preference. Obvious reply could be that  but it would be a commonplace. This classic echoing is an established tradition, cliche that doesn't always work  (sometimes it's necessary though depending on the plot, development and so on). I personally don't like such "obvious" things. To have him say "I know" was smth extraordinary, not seen before. One doesn't have to mirror other's "I love you" to express his/her feelings. Han showed us enough  what his feelings towards Leia were (his anger she didn't acknowledged her sympathy to him resulted in their quarrel on Hoth, the Falcon kiss scene, his awe when he saw her in Bespin just before the trap dressed in conformity with the fashion he had never seen her doing anytime earlier). For me it was obvious that Han loved Leia as well as the opposite. Han was "an old soldier", a SMUGGLER who never spoke the words of love, he perhaps felt it like exposing his "weakness" . So when Ford decided to play with it he demonstrated full understanding of his character.

As for the line itself consider the novelization by D. Gluth who obviously was given the version of the draft that reflected some stage (one of the latest ones) of its readjustment. Here Han says: "Just don't forget this when I come back". Then he became serious and gently kissed her forehead. She dashed away tears and Han without ruffle of excitement turned back and stepped into the platform. Sorry if this isn't exact quote as I'm doing translation on my own from my native language in which it was published in the place where I live ) 

I always saw the line as meaning all of those things at once, Mielr and Anchorhead. That's why it's such a great line - it works on so many levels.

And for what it's worth, whenever I respond to "I love you" with "I know," it usually gets laughs (and not from people who would know that's a reference).

Anchorhead said:

From the first time I sat in the theater, I've always read that scene differently.  I felt the "I know" was his way of telling her that if he didn't make it, he wanted her to know he understood her feelings.  That they weren't wasted or unappreciated. He would die knowing the truth. 

 That's an interesting take, as I never thought of it that way.  I always thought of it as Han Solo being Han Solo, as that is what makes him cool around women that most guys don't have.  Most guys wouldn't have the confidence to say that to a female in fear of them taking it the wrong way.  But Solo is the ultimate cool guy who has the confidence that regardless of his response, Leia will still love him.

Mavericks said:

Indeed, THIS did tessellate. Well, of course it should have been so obvious earlier. But here one moment of questionable participance of Harrison in ROTJ appears: after they turned Han's body into the piece of Carbonized Ice, Lando squatted down and after a brief revision of life gauges, stated that "he's alive". So, if Han survived wasn't it somehow connected to the fact that Ford was viewed as a member of the cast on ROTJ set?

 No, the reason Lando declared that Han was alive still is simply to leave the possibility open of having Harrison Ford return to the role. If Harrison Ford declined to appear in the third movie, he was basically already written out of the picture, and if he did decide to return, they could write him back into the story without having to resort to a retcon. 

imperialscum said:

Nothing personal, but why are there so many people misspelling Kershner's name.

 What I want to know is why no one's misspelt it as "Cershner" ;-)

I'm surprised this thread made it to -- from my perspective -- eight pages. I expected interest to peter out after the second or third page.