Sign In

Did Lucas forget that Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars ? — Page 2

Author
Time
 (Edited)

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time

Stardust1138 said:

They’re used for goofy humour in the Original Trilogy too. R2-D2’s saw gag, R2-D2 shocking the Ewok, C-3PO setting up the Ewoks to attack the stormtroopers, Salacious Crumb poking out C-3PO’s eye, and even before this with C-3PO’s body gag at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and moments in A New Hope. They’ve always been used for goofiness to defuse the tension of moments. It’s sort of needed for kids in Attack of the Clones especially as Jango getting his head cut off is pretty grim stuff. Same really with the ending of The Empire Strikes Back.

I get that the droids have always been comic relief, but I feel like the arena body-swap gag took it way too far. It doesn’t really feel like the OT’s style of humor, more like something out of a cartoon. I’m fine with comic relief, but the prequels’ style of comic relief has always rubbed me the wrong way.

C-3PO during Geonosis and general also has a lot of symbolism with Anakin. At the start Anakin builds C-3PO to help his mom through well intentions. This reflects back onto Anakin as he’s very selfless but there’s also a very independent streak in him at the same time. C-3PO has this too but is more neurotic. Then you get to the Battle of Geonosis both are at a crossroads. C-3PO’s body swap represents Anakin being torn between his desires and his duty. Just as Anakin represents C-3PO’s imbalance and alliances being blurred on a galactic scale. These things are also interchangeable. They eventually go their separate ways but not really as this leads to further symbolic meaning with Luke and friends later on.

Sorry, but this feels like an insane stretch. If you have any quote where Lucas actually says this was his intention with the body swap, I’d love to see it. But I didn’t see any sort of commentary about desires and duty, it just felt like something George thought would be funny when he was planning out the factory scene. And I wouldn’t have a problem with that, if it was actually funny.

There’s no coincidence if you watch the films I-VI as George intended. I don’t mean this to be rude to anyone who prefers watching them IV-VI, I-III as I know these things are subjective but so many of the problems some have with the Prequels I find tend to be from watching them as the second trilogy instead of the first. So many things work better in watching and understanding the story through the gaze of how George intended them to be viewed instead of watching them backwards as so many of the perceived plot holes aren’t actually plot holes. The story is also much more clear and you can see how seeds are being planted to eventually eclipse the entire universe.

I also don’t mean to be rude, but I just don’t see how chronological order works at all. You say it makes the story clearer, but I’ve always thought it just made it more confusing. In the OT, we learn info along with our main protagonist Luke, creating a human element that makes the universe much more engaging. In the prequels, however, important info just appears with little-to-no explanation, and the dry, clinical style makes it hard for the audience to latch on to anything.

And also, how does the coincidence of the droids showing up disappear if you watch in chronological order? No matter which way you watch it, the droids land on a vast planet in search of Obi-Wan, only to conveniently be sold to a random farm boy who just happens to know Obi-Wan and is also the son of the second-most-powerful man in the galaxy. If anything, watching the prequels first makes that even more ridiculous.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

Author
Time

The mistreatment of C-3PO in the prequels gave us Auralnauts’ Creepio, so I guess it worked out in the end.

YOU PROMISED ME FLESH!

Author
Time
 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

I get that the droids have always been comic relief, but I feel like the arena body-swap gag took it way too far. It doesn’t really feel like the OT’s style of humor, more like something out of a cartoon. I’m fine with comic relief, but the prequels’ style of comic relief has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Sorry, but this feels like an insane stretch. If you have any quote where Lucas actually says this was his intention with the body swap, I’d love to see it. But I didn’t see any sort of commentary about desires and duty, it just felt like something George thought would be funny when he was planning out the factory scene. And I wouldn’t have a problem with that, if it was actually funny.

I also don’t mean to be rude, but I just don’t see how chronological order works at all. You say it makes the story clearer, but I’ve always thought it just made it more confusing. In the OT, we learn info along with our main protagonist Luke, creating a human element that makes the universe much more engaging. In the prequels, however, important info just appears with little-to-no explanation, and the dry, clinical style makes it hard for the audience to latch on to anything.

And also, how does the coincidence of the droids showing up disappear if you watch in chronological order? No matter which way you watch it, the droids land on a vast planet in search of Obi-Wan, only to conveniently be sold to a random farm boy who just happens to know Obi-Wan and is also the son of the second-most-powerful man in the galaxy. If anything, watching the prequels first makes that even more ridiculous.

It’s all subjective and the Original Trilogy has its share of comic relief that’s just like the Prequels. I don’t want to assume but it probably doesn’t bother you or isn’t as noticable because you saw the Originals first. Your view on what Star Wars should be is informed by your experiences seeing it before you saw the Prequels. You had time to decide what you feel Star Wars should be. There’s nothing wrong with that either as I’m like this with the Sequels we ended up with but it explains why certain things may fly and other aspects not so much. I’m fortunate to have grown up with both of George’s Trilogies at the same time. So my view of Star Wars is informed by all six. It’s all generational in a lot of ways. Plus at the end of the day these films are for children as George always said. I may not be a big fan of Jar Jar’s potty humour now that I’m older but I can still get a giggle out of it. I don’t really view Star Wars through adult eyes except when analysing the layers within it.

There’s no quotes that I know of and it’s my personal view of things. Anakin has desire to protect and be with Padme, just as C-3PO has a desire to stay aboard Padme’s starship and doing as he’s told. Duty comes in play with Anakin’s commitment to the Jedi and C-3PO’s staying loyal to Anakin. The droid factory in itself is symbolic and full of foreshadowing. In a way it’s a blazing hellish place as Ben Snow, visual effects supervisor, more or less called it. It foreshadows Mustafar. Anakin also gets his arm stuck in a machine foreshadowing it getting chopped off later by Count Dooku and his transformation in the suit. The biggest thing though for me is that the Droid Factory and Clone Factory on Kamino are both manufacturing what will bring about repression and the Empire. It’s a play on THX 1138 and Metropolis as you can see when syncing up the imagery of the films. I made a post awhile back showing the lines with THX 1138 if you wanted to go through my posts. I’m sure you’ll see it. I also included American Graffiti.

I don’t want to be rude but that’s your own personal view of things. It wasn’t difficult for myself or others. It all depends on when you’re exposed to the films I think. The Prequels are just as much of a personal story to me as the Originals. They just have a more complicated plot as the nuances have to be weaved to show where we get to in the Original Trilogy and later if George’s Sequels had been followed. I don’t find them to be dry at all but done more in the styles of 40’s cinema before method acting became a thing and a Saturday matinee serial. Watching the films chronologically allows you to see Anakin’s journey to becoming Darth Vader and that he’s a slave to making the wrong choices as he makes a pact with the devil who we see slowly across the trilogy exploit a fragile senate and complacent Jedi Order. Anakin ulimately loses his free will after gaining it in the podrace. He’s only redeemed through the love of his children, namely Luke. You see the Empire begin to fall in the first film of the next trilogy with A New Hope and Anakin/Darth Vader sensing something strong in Luke during the Trench Run. Only to go on a personal quest to find him in the next film. You see Anakin and Luke go through the same lessons and core issues in each film of their trilogy but ulimately make different choices to finally fully intertwine aboard the Death Star II in the final film of the trilogy. It’s Anakin’s story but is also a family space opera. The story works better I-VI as the stories play off of one another with the poetic links becoming clearer and obvious. You also see the different choices made across generations. You see how Leia takes more after Anakin while Luke takes more after Padme in terms of personality but they also have their own sense of self. You don’t get these things and much, much more viewing things IV-VI, I-III. Sure you kind of do by going back but not to the same effect as you’re already influenced by preconceived beliefs on what something must be like instead of just taking the story at face value as you have nothing to compare it with.

You’ll hate what I’m going to say but … the Force. As Qui-Gon says to Anakin, “Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident.” The Force works in mysterious ways. We have free will but it has some control over our destinies. George planned to explore this very question in his Sequels. It’s all a symbiosis ecology and a major part of Star Wars. I find this also becomes clearer watching things I-VI. The greater circles within more circles through duality and balance that runs through the films gets bigger and bigger as the story goes along to eventually where George planned to eclipse the entire universe. George has spoken of this himself. So it’s not just my own personal view of things.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time

The droids didn’t randomly land in the planet Obi-Wan was in, and didn’t randomly land close to his home either. That’s all text for the original film. They knew Obi-Wan lived somewhere around there, R2 I think even knew exactly where. “Secret mission, what are you talking about?!” (as R2 heads in a particular direction). He also escapes at night and has a specific place he wants to get to, which curiously (obviously!) is closer to Obi-Wan’s home since he shows up.

Hopefully it becomes obvious that R2 programmed the pod to land there, near Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan lived next to Luke on purpose. I really, really fail to see a coincidence. And I’ve tried.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Omni said:

The droids didn’t randomly land in the planet Obi-Wan was in, and didn’t randomly land close to his home either. That’s all text for the original film. They knew Obi-Wan lived somewhere around there, R2 I think even knew exactly where. “Secret mission, what are you talking about?!” (as R2 heads in a particular direction). He also escapes at night and has a specific place he wants to get to, which curiously (obviously!) is closer to Obi-Wan’s home since he shows up.

Hopefully it becomes obvious that R2 programmed the pod to land there, near Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan lived next to Luke on purpose. I really, really fail to see a coincidence. And I’ve tried.

There’s that too. R2 remembers everything and far more than he let’s on. He’s been to Tatooine before and for all we know he could’ve been given instructions by Leia to where Obi-Wan lives. I don’t think she’d randomly give him the mission to complete without any help on where to go. So it’s not out of the realm of possibility he knows where to go through experience and help from Leia.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time

Stardust1138 said:

It’s all subjective and the Original Trilogy has its share of comic relief that’s just like the Prequels. I don’t want to assume but it probably doesn’t bother you or isn’t as noticable because you saw the Originals first. Your view on what Star Wars should be is informed by your experiences seeing it before you saw the Prequels. You had time to decide what you feel Star Wars should be. There’s nothing wrong with that either as I’m like this with the Sequels we ended up with but it explains why certain things may fly and other aspects not so much. I’m fortunate to have grown up with both of George’s Trilogies at the same time. So my view of Star Wars is informed by all six. It’s all generational in a lot of ways. Plus at the end of the day these films are for children as George always said. I may not be a big fan of Jar Jar’s potty humour now that I’m older but I can still get a giggle out of it. I don’t really view Star Wars through adult eyes except when analysing the layers within it.

I’m not going to try and rebut any of your arguments: You have your opinions, I have mine, and no amount of argument is going to change that.

However, I do feel the need to clarify something: I didn’t actually grow up with the OT, as you seem to assume. I’m part of the prequel generation, just like you are. However, just because I grew up with the prequels as a part of “my Star Wars” doesn’t mean that I like them. I did like the prequels as a kid, mainly because of the cool action scenes (although I still hated Jar-Jar and the romance even back then). But the more I rewatched them as I grew older, the more I started to notice their flaws; flaws that (in my opinion) seriously hampered my ability to enjoy those movies. Whereas the OT only got better the more I rewatched it, the prequels only got worse.

But again, this is my opinion, and I’m not going to try and change yours. I just hope you understand where I’m coming from here.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

Author
Time
 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

Stardust1138 said:

It’s all subjective and the Original Trilogy has its share of comic relief that’s just like the Prequels. I don’t want to assume but it probably doesn’t bother you or isn’t as noticable because you saw the Originals first. Your view on what Star Wars should be is informed by your experiences seeing it before you saw the Prequels. You had time to decide what you feel Star Wars should be. There’s nothing wrong with that either as I’m like this with the Sequels we ended up with but it explains why certain things may fly and other aspects not so much. I’m fortunate to have grown up with both of George’s Trilogies at the same time. So my view of Star Wars is informed by all six. It’s all generational in a lot of ways. Plus at the end of the day these films are for children as George always said. I may not be a big fan of Jar Jar’s potty humour now that I’m older but I can still get a giggle out of it. I don’t really view Star Wars through adult eyes except when analysing the layers within it.

I’m not going to try and rebut any of your arguments: You have your opinions, I have mine, and no amount of argument is going to change that.

However, I do feel the need to clarify something: I didn’t actually grow up with the OT, as you seem to assume. I’m part of the prequel generation, just like you are. However, just because I grew up with the prequels as a part of “my Star Wars” doesn’t mean that I like them. I did like the prequels as a kid, mainly because of the cool action scenes (although I still hated Jar-Jar and the romance even back then). But the more I rewatched them as I grew older, the more I started to notice their flaws; flaws that (in my opinion) seriously hampered my ability to enjoy those movies. Whereas the OT only got better the more I rewatched it, the prequels only got worse.

But again, this is my opinion, and I’m not going to try and change yours. I just hope you understand where I’m coming from here.

I do of course. My apologies for my assumption. Star Wars works in different ways for everyone. It truly doesn’t matter what generation of fan you are as it’s subjective to each viewer and creator alike. Just as how the Sequels we ended up with may not be what I or the original creator wanted I will never try to take them away from the fans that love them. It would be very selfish to do so. I’m glad we have differing opinions and views. It makes for more interesting conversations and discusses. It’s all about finding common ground. Thankfully we both love Star Wars and that’s enough for me. I wish you could see the things I see but I can’t force you and I wouldn’t want to.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

That’s a really insane stretch man

Death of the Author

Author
Time
 (Edited)

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

That’s a really insane stretch man

Not really. It could be any number of things including PTSD or being of two mindsets. Like me with the Sequels. I don’t like them necessarily as continuations and as a conclusion to the first six films but I can still enjoy them to a degree as mindless escapism. You can hold two opinions at the same time. Just as Obi-Wan couldn’t care less for remembering ever owning a droid or their names. Life can be a contradiction and not always fully set in stone. The more we know, the less we know. I know less as I get older.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time

JadedSkywalker said:

Did Lucas forget that Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars ?

I don’t think this plot line mentioned in the originals was revisited.

It would appear Lucas did indeed forget, or didn’t care. But given the large number of discrepancies between the two trilogies onscreen at the time it is one that is often overlooked.

I do love the deep mental gymnastics by some to try and align the discrepancies, and some of the excuses and justifications are pretty good and thoughtful, yet often fall apart in the overall scheme of things. It would be interesting to see such efforts put into explaining George why he didn’t simply write a more coherent Prequel Trilogy for his Saga. Or why he didn’t address the many discrepancies in the drafts or re-writes before filming began.

The Secret History of Star Wars | Star Wars Visual Comparisons | George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time-Travelling Revisionist

Author
Time
 (Edited)

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

That’s a really insane stretch man

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

Author
Time

The answer to this question is yes he probably forgot, but is it a huge problem that ruins my enjoyment of the films? No, not for me at least, I do agree that there are inconsistencies between what is said in the original trilogy and what is shown in the prequel trilogy, but that’s just what happens when you go to create prequels and sequels to something you made 20 years ago. I don’t think it’s a big problem though as I’m able to just realize it’s inconsistent and move on. But then there’s a bunch of stuff that a lot of fans seem to hate or dislike that I just don’t really care too much about, and this is one of those things. I just personally don’t think it’s a big deal but it’s fine if others do.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Emre1601 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

That’s a really insane stretch man

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

Or you know trying to understand why George made the choices he did. Sometimes it could be perceived as stretching with certain issues like Obi-Wan possibly experiencing PTSD but it’s only because we don’t know exactly what he was thinking with x and y sometimes. Star Wars is just as much participation of the audience as it is George’s answers. It’s part of the experience with Star Wars that you can have your own explanation of the way things are until George gives concrete details that adds to the mythos he already created with say the Whills and Midi-Chlorians connection to the Force. It’s almost certainly all been there in some shape or form from the very beginning but it took time for the story to develop and evolved a lot in the span of nearly forty years. He always did what served the story first. It’s like The Clone Wars eventually giving a probable definitive answer to why Obi-Wan doesn’t really remember ever owning a droid. He had a low opinion of them. It’s probably not what fans envisioned or some wanted the answer to be but that’s his explanation and at the end of the day that’s where fan explanation stops and you understand author’s intention. You should ask how and why instead of what. Episodes I-VI, The Clone Wars series, and his Sequel Trilogy treatments are the definitive final word in what is and isn’t Star Wars. Anything that comes afterwards is fanfiction. We can’t be spoon fed every little detail or even know everything. Some things must remain a mystery for audience and creative alike. There’s no fun in knowing everything and he recongised that as all the greats do. These are his stories and at the end of the day that’s Star Wars for better or worse depending on who you ask. Now it’s run though by a corporation who pays fanfiction writers. Some of it might actually be good but it’s unlikely it will ever be consistently good or in line with George’s values.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

That’s a really insane stretch man

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

Or you know trying to understand why George made the choices he did. Sometimes it could be perceived as stretching with certain issues like Obi-Wan possibly experiencing PTSD but it’s only because we don’t know exactly what he was thinking with x and y sometimes. Star Wars is just as much participation of the audience as it is George’s answers. It’s part of the experience with Star Wars that you can have your own explanation of the way things are until George gives concrete details that adds to the mythos he already created with say the Whills and Midi-Chlorians connection to the Force. It’s almost certainly all been there in some shape or form from the very beginning but it took time for the story to develop and evolved a lot in the span of nearly forty years. He always did what served the story first. It’s like The Clone Wars eventually giving a probable definitive answer to why Obi-Wan doesn’t really remember ever owning a droid. He had a low opinion of them. It’s probably not what fans envisioned or some wanted the answer to be but that’s his explanation and at the end of the day that’s where fan explanation stops and you understand author’s intention. You should ask how and why instead of what. Episodes I-VI, The Clone Wars series, and his Sequel Trilogy treatments are the definitive final word in what is and isn’t Star Wars. Anything that comes afterwards is fanfiction. We can’t be spoon fed every little detail or even know everything. Some things must remain a mystery for audience and creative alike. There’s no fun in knowing everything and he recongised that as all the greats do. These are his stories and at the end of the day that’s Star Wars for better or worse depending on who you ask. Now it’s run though by a corporation who pays fanfiction writers. Some of it might actually be good but it’s unlikely it will ever be consistently good or in line with George’s values.

That is a lot of words attempting to justify mental gymnastics and stretches, that somehow veers off into something else which has nothing to do with what I posted. Like many other fans I am only interested in what happens on screen, and this is the subject of the Opening Post of thread between the Original and Prequel Trilogies.

I am not interested in George’s thoughts, his intentions, or what happened outside the two trilogies many years later. Or what you think is his definitive Sequel Trilogy treatments are. Nor your thoughts on modern-era Star Wars or other grandstanding in your post. Just what happened onscreen. I know you do not like or agree with this because of your posts to the last person who stated a similar viewpoint (in the Prequel Trilogy thread) resulted in you apologising for insulting them when they were only interested in what occurred on screen.

Your writing style and prowse are very good, interesting to read and you are obviously passionate about what you believe. I enjoy your posts, even the twists and interpretations you put into them after others here prove you are mistaken with facts.

Yet many people are only interested what happens on screen. If many fans find some of the attempts to explain the discrepancies between the two Trilogies onscreen to be an insane stretch, or to be yet more of the mental gymnastics provided for other discrepancies between the two trilogies, then it likely means they are still waiting or looking for a better answer for these discrepancies than has been provided so far.

Being pointed to looking at George’s intentions, additional materials and video content, or grandstanding on the “definitive final word in what is and isn’t Star Wars”, or “George’s values” just doesn’t cut it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

That’s a really insane stretch man

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

Or you know trying to understand why George made the choices he did. Sometimes it could be perceived as stretching with certain issues like Obi-Wan possibly experiencing PTSD but it’s only because we don’t know exactly what he was thinking with x and y sometimes. Star Wars is just as much participation of the audience as it is George’s answers. It’s part of the experience with Star Wars that you can have your own explanation of the way things are until George gives concrete details that adds to the mythos he already created with say the Whills and Midi-Chlorians connection to the Force. It’s almost certainly all been there in some shape or form from the very beginning but it took time for the story to develop and evolved a lot in the span of nearly forty years. He always did what served the story first. It’s like The Clone Wars eventually giving a probable definitive answer to why Obi-Wan doesn’t really remember ever owning a droid. He had a low opinion of them. It’s probably not what fans envisioned or some wanted the answer to be but that’s his explanation and at the end of the day that’s where fan explanation stops and you understand author’s intention. You should ask how and why instead of what. Episodes I-VI, The Clone Wars series, and his Sequel Trilogy treatments are the definitive final word in what is and isn’t Star Wars. Anything that comes afterwards is fanfiction. We can’t be spoon fed every little detail or even know everything. Some things must remain a mystery for audience and creative alike. There’s no fun in knowing everything and he recongised that as all the greats do. These are his stories and at the end of the day that’s Star Wars for better or worse depending on who you ask. Now it’s run though by a corporation who pays fanfiction writers. Some of it might actually be good but it’s unlikely it will ever be consistently good or in line with George’s values.

That is a lot of words attempting to justify mental gymnastics and stretches, that somehow veers off into something else which has nothing to do with what I posted. Like many other fans I am only interested in what happens on screen, and this is the subject of the Opening Post of thread between the Original and Prequel Trilogies.

I am not interested in George’s thoughts, his intentions, or what happened outside the two trilogies many years later. Or what you think is his definitive Sequel Trilogy treatments are. Nor your thoughts on modern-era Star Wars or other grandstanding in your post. Just what happened onscreen. I know you do not like or agree with this because of your posts to the last person who stated a similar viewpoint resulted in you apologising for insulting them when they were only interested in what occurred on screen.

Your writing style and prowse are very good, interesting to read and you are obviously passionate about what you believe. I enjoy your posts, even the twists and interpretations you put into them after others here prove you are mistaken with facts.

Yet many people are only interested what happens on screen. If many fans find some of the attempts to explain the discrepancies between the two Trilogies onscreen to be an insane stretch, or to be yet more of the mental gymnastics provided for other discrepancies between the two trilogies, then it likely means they are still waiting or looking for a better answer for these discrepancies than has been provided so far.

Being pointed to looking at George’s intentions, additional materials and content, or grandstanding on the “definitive final word in what is and isn’t Star Wars”, or “George’s values” just doesn’t cut it.

It’s all right there on the screen and not just what I’ve learned years later. Everything that is essential to understanding the films is within them. The problem I find is the unwillingness of some outright refusing to look pass their own personal viewpoints and attachments to the series. Isn’t it just as good to challenge ourselves than merely looking at things only how we want to see it? I don’t find there’s as many plotholes between the two trilogies as many want to claim there to be. Just as I think there’s things the audience can think are important but aren’t actually in the grand scheme of things to being needed to understand the greater whole. There’s plenty of things that can happen off screen. I don’t blame people themselves despite how I may have come across but more so how they’re taught. A very important skill I find is visual literacy but it’s not taught in our culture. The most glaring example where this is an issue that I can think of within Star Wars is the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Some fans will complain it runs too long, it’s all spectacle and no substance, and that Obi-Wan never backups later claims that he once thought as Luke did. The thing is it’s not about runtime as if a sequence is meant to go on, let it. Secondly when we see the volcano erupt it represents Anakin’s inner turmoil erupting and equally when we see him and Obi-Wan swinging with the ropes it could be seen as representing the blurring reality of the situation as not long after Obi-Wan says he has failed Anakin. Most importantly Obi-Wan fights nearly the entire fight in defence. He’s looking to protect and bring Anakin back the entire time. Unfortunately many tend to miss these nuances because they’re not taught to look out for them. Ironic people claim George can’t tell his stories without some melodramatic dialogue but here he is illustrating his skills and prose as a visual filmmaker and communicator.

I understand perfectly well we all have differing views on what Star Wars is but everything we truly need to know is within the films themselves. There’s some minor things that get addressed in The Clone Wars like the premise of the thread but we don’t neccessary need to see it as the films show us the beginning and ending of the war. Not the part where Obi-Wan served Bail.

I’m merely providing the skills to help people gain a greater understanding and appreciation to the details that are often overlooked because they’re not always verbally spoken.

If people want to view these films as space wizard movies for kids that’s their choice because they are. However they equally have something deeply meaningful to juxtaposition that very thing. There’s always a bigger fish.

His stories grew and evolved throughout the years. Plus as he always said the Sequels were never as fleshed out and detailed as what he had for the Prequels. So it only makes sense his story for it would take the turns it did.

Thank you for your kind words about my posts. I enjoy yours as well. We may not agree on what Star Wars means to us necessarily on a personal level but that’s okay as that’s the case for everyone. At the end of the day we both love the series. Isn’t that what it’s all about?

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

BedeHistory731 said:

If you want some good videos about the deeper meaning of the PT, I’d suggest the writings of Harold S. Plinkett.

It’s Mike, Jay, and Rich’s opus, just ignore the live-action bits.

You mean the videos that are reinforcing opinions people have on the surface instead of being factual and trying to understand the films for what they really are? They spill out so many lies about George and the Prequels. It’s not even funny anymore how much videos like these gain traction over thoughtful analyses that truly address the actual films George made versus the ones the viewer wanted him to make. I mean if people need hooker jokes to get a point across I think that’s pretty bad taste in of itself versus actually trying to understand things for what they are. That’s just me though.

If you want a thoughtful prospective that actually makes an effort to understand Star Wars beyond opinion I’d recommend Rick Worley’s videos time and time again. He actually shows factual evidence for the things he talks about. You know like Roger Ebert would do and any critic for that matter who actually addresses the films given to them with the tools they have instead of just reinforcing opinions of what must clearly be the consensus to gain popularity.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Rick Worley? Man, that guy spends countless videos trying to trick himself into thinking the PT is Actually Good.

I’d rather listen to what Mike, Jay, and Rich have to say. They aren’t up their own ass about these movies nearly as much. But I guess you and the other prequel fans think they’re “fake news” determined to bring your favorite movies down. Like it or not, the Plinkett reviews are still the definitive retrospective on those movies.

Even though the live-action segments aged badly, the Plinkett reviews are IMHO essential viewing for understand PT hate.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

BedeHistory731 said:

Rick Worley? Man, that guy spends countless videos trying to trick himself into thinking the PT is Actually Good.

I’d rather listen to what Mike, Jay, and Rich have to say. They aren’t up their own ass about these movies nearly as much.

I mean isn’t that exactly what they’re doing by refusing to actually look at the factual evidence and spilling lies? Wouldn’t you prefer having your opinion challenged instead of watching something that reinforces what you already think and believe it to be? Sometimes you have to go after it with what you believe in. You can’t sit and wait for opportunities to share what matters to you or sit still in being who you’re meant to be. Rick is one of those people. I am too.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Rick Worley? Man, that guy spends countless videos trying to trick himself into thinking the PT is Actually Good.

I’d rather listen to what Mike, Jay, and Rich have to say. They aren’t up their own ass about these movies nearly as much.

I mean isn’t that exactly what they’re doing by refusing to actually look at the factual evidence and spilling lies?

No, not really. Also, there you go again in calling the Plinkett reviews “lies.”

Wouldn’t you prefer having your opinion challenged instead of watching something that reinforces what you already think and believe it to be?

Yeah, as I’m engaging with you right now. Still, I know when a guy can be full of shit, as Rick firmly is. That man wants to ascribe deep meaning to toyetic family movies, meaning that simply isn’t there.

Lucas isn’t a Bergman, Varda, Coppola, or even a Von Trier. If anything he’s more a Michael Bay or Hollywood John Woo.

Sometimes you have to go after it with what you believe in. You can’t sit and wait for opportunities to share what matters to you or sit still in being who you’re meant to be. Rick is one of those people. I am too.

Sure, but sometimes you have to step back and say, “Wow, I’m spending countless hours looking for deeper meaning in family space fantasy movies. Maybe I’m no better than the nerds who memorize wikis.”

Author
Time
 (Edited)

It’s not like George never said himself there weren’t deeper meanings or even the people that worked with him doing the same.

Oh wait … they did!

“The interesting thing about Star Wars—and I didn’t ever really push this very far, because it’s not really that important—but there’s a lot going on there that most people haven’t come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it’s a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine.” - George Lucas

“One of the reasons Star Wars is still so popular is because you can read lots of things into it. A lot of things are there and George did tell me that it was his onion so to speak. That’s George Lucas’s onion. I was with him in his writing room, he wasn’t actually writing. While I was there but I was in his writing room I did talk to him about Indiana Jones movie for that book. And I was trying to read stuff into Indiana Jones and George just stopped and said no there’s nothing going on underneath the surface of Indiana Jones but he said Star Wars on the other hand is like an onion. You can peel away one layer there’s another layer and another layer and he said that was all intended. So he did intend for the six films to be interrelated and for there to be deeper meanings.” - Jonathan Rinzler

Factual evidence right here supports there being more going on than being “toyetic family movies”. Can’t they be both? They’re kids movies with deeper layers going on when you peel the movies back one layer at a time.

He is definitely in the company of Bergman, Varda, Coppola, or even Van Trier. He’s an auteur just as these filmmakers are. He just designed them more for kids versus adults as the ones you listed make/made films for. That’s the only difference separating him between most auteurs. He made films for young people as he saw how important it is to pass on what you know to generations.

The Plinkett reviews are arguably lies. No main protagonist in The Phantom Menace? Oh it’s actually just like A New Hope where Leia is except in this case Padme. The stories are equally told through the eyes of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan just as the original film was told through C-3PO and R2-D2. All according to George. George said “I may have gone too far in a few places”. Oh yes he did but when they were editing and trying to make the ending battle work. George surrounded himself with “yes men”. Jonathan Rinzler just laughed when asked about that. I could go on and on about the false claims they spill over and over and that people cite as truth over the actual facts to the contrary.

Or you know being passionate enough about a subject to want to try sharing the truth instead of what is repeated time and time again? We all need something to feel passionate about that gives us joy. Find what you love and you’ll never be bored again.

People can like whatever they want and choose to view them however they want but if they took another step they may just find a more rewarding experience. Maybe not. However at least they’d have more understanding of George as a filmmaker and person.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Man, the Plinkett videos really set you off, don’t they? Also, I’m surprised you didn’t bite at me comparing Lucas to Michael Bay (albeit sans-jingoism). I’d think that would send you into a rage.

I do get what you’re saying about faith and wanting people to believe in the best intentions of the filmmaker, I really do. Heck, I’ve been in your position when trying to dissect media like Halloween III: Season of the Witch (John Carpenter trying to turn the franchise into a horror anthology series) or Nothing But Trouble (admiring Dan Ackroyd’s raw creative energy). When the rest of the room is dead-set against you, it’s not fun.

Your writing skills and attempts to explain your points are good. However, I still can’t shake the feeling you consider Lucas’ work a sacred cow and you believe that any criticism of the movies is a personal attack on your fandom and by extension you. Sometimes, it’s good to have perspective and know when to back away from a discussion.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Of course I take it personally to a degree as making false claims about anything is never a good way to get people to actually understand something or your point of view. It creates tension and fighting in the long run. Like us right now to a degree. This is never healthy and shouldn’t be encouraged as the Red Light Media reviews penetrate. They’re not film critics but people with opinions on what they think George should have done with his films mind you. Instead it’s like many seem to agree with them without actually forming their own opinions or knowing anything about visual literacy. See how Chris Stuckmann copies and pastes their reviews. Does he not have his own takes first? Just because something is a consensus doesn’t make it right. It’s like me I have an opinion of what certain things mean to me personally but I use factual evidence on the contrary when presented with them. I don’t stay restricted to my thinking of what Star Wars has to be but am encouraged to see it grow and not be nostalgic forever. It is truly personal in some ways but everything you love is and I really love George’s six films. I equally love nearly everything else he ever made that I’ve seen. I’m not so keen on Temple of the Doom for example. I like parts of it but overall it’s in my opinion not as good as Raiders of the Lost Ark or Young Indy for that matter. I’ve not seen the other films yet. I equally love the person he is and find him someone you should aspire to be more like.

I mean he’s not but it’s whatever.

Of course I know the Prequels aren’t perfect but neither are the Originals. No film has ever truly reached perfection or not been without criticism from somebody. However criticism and being objective is different from understanding visual literacy and in general terms why something is the way it is. It’s the difference between spilling your opinion on something versus factual evidence that shows what the filmmaker or whomever intended for us to see. More often than not it’s all opinion when it comes to dissing the Prequels and not actually trying to understand them or George. The same points get made time and time again. Are they valid? Sometimes and I’ll leave it at that.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas