http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24371
Ludwig, on 30 Apr 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:I just recently purchased a copy of the book The Making of Star Wars, and it gives evidence that busts, or at least seriously questions, some of the persistent beliefs about the soundtrack to the original Star Wars film. And yet, at the same time, the detail isn't quite enough to completely wipe out these beliefs are pure myths. Not quite. Here are three that certainly deserve discussion here, amongst we JWFans.
1) The conversation in which Williams supposedly convinced Lucas to use an original score rather than a compilation of classical works a la 2001: A Space Odyssey. This one is especially suspicious. On p. 99, the book's author J.W. Rinzler quotes Lucas saying
QuoteI really knew the kind of sound I wanted. I knew I wanted an old-fashioned, romantic movie score, and I knew he was very good with large orchestras.
Rinzler also says that when Lucas was dropping in regularly on post-production of Jaws,
Quoteunusually for most directors, but standard to Lucas, he had already been thinking about the soundtrack for The Star Wars, and was leaning toward a classical, romantic one. Spielberg suggested the fellow who had just finished composing the soundtrack for Jaws; Lucas got to hear some of it and was impressed.
So it seems that Lucas was never interested in a compilation score. That said, Audissino in his new book on Williams on p. 71 claims that
Quote[Lucas] resolved that [Star Wars] should have an extensive musical coverage and, according to various sources, planned to have the music track made of preexisting symphonic selections, or at least to use preexisting themes arranged as leitmotivs for the film.
He backs this up with several sources in a footnote, as he says. But in that same footnote, he says
QuoteBut on the other hand, when interviewed by Leonard Maltin, Lucas said that he had always had the idea of having an original score--The Empire Strikes Back, VHS, Fox, 1995. However, 2001 was an influential model and Lucas had already used a compilation score for American Graffiti; in the liner notes for the 1977 album Williams wrote that Lucas originally wanted repertoire music, and Lucas, being the album producer, accepted at that time Williams's statement as true. So, it seems quite probable that Lucas's original idea was to use repertoire music as the film's main themes. [Boldface added]
While I greatly admire Audissino's book, on this point, I'd respectfully disagree. It's not impossible that Lucas is rewriting history by changing what he originally said, but considering his very early search for a composer who could write in a more classical manner, it seems very unlikely. As for the conversation between Williams and Lucas that supposedly changed the latter's mind, here is what Williams said (quoted on p. 265 of The Making of Star Wars:
QuoteI didn't want to hear a piece of Dvo?ák here, a piece of Tchaikovsky there. What I wanted to hear was something to do with Ben Kenobi more developed here, something to do with his death over there. What we needed were themes or our own, which one could put through all the permutations of a dramatic situation. This was my discussion and my dialogue with George--that I felt we needed our own themes, which could be made into a solid dramaturgical glue from start to finish. To whatever extent we have succeeded, that is what I tried to do.
Though this may seem to confirm that Lucas wanted a compilation and Williams talked him out of it, there is another possibility for interpreting this conversation that no one ever mentions. It's true that Lucas had a temp track made up largely of several classical pieces that he selected himself. That's beyond dispute. But it's possible, and to my mind very likely, that what he instead had in mind was an original score that drew heavily on these classical works--even more heavily than in the final film, to the extent that the themes would be recognizable as classically-based recompositions rather than new themes altogether. That would be a sort of combination of existing and original music, a grey area that, as I say, no one has considered.
That would fit the facts far better than saying that Lucas simply wanted a 2001-like compilation score. Why else would he be looking for a classically-trained film composer so well before any of the film was made? Why else would he say that he always had an original score in mind? And the combination-type score I mention would also not make total nonsense of Williams' conversation with Lucas. Everything just fits better from that angle.
2) The contents of the temp track.
Yes, it has been discussed here before, but it's been confusing to sort out what was, was not, and was likely or likely not, on that temp track. The Making of Star Wars clearly states that the temp track included Rózsa's Ivanhoe for the main title, Benny Goodman for the cantina band, Liszt's Les Préludes for the jail break scene, and Bruckner's Ninth Symphony for Luke's theme. I had heard of the first two of these before, but had never seen it confirmed anywhere. And the last two are brand new for me. Interesting that the main title and Luke's theme were considered different pieces of music in the temp track. In any case, the Luke's theme's resemblance to Korngold's Kings Row seems not due to the temp track.
3) The Psycho motif. Paul Hirsch, a film editor on Star Wars, added the famous three-note motif from Herrmann's Psycho where the rebels pop out of a secret hatch on the Millennium Falcon. Yes, we all know this motif is still there, but I did not know it was on the temp track before. So it wasn't some kind of challenge put to Williams by others to somehow include that motif, it was always there on the temp track.
Discuss!
John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/
Well, even if you "always had the idea" of using classical music for your movie it would be a bit silly to not ask a great composer like Williams what he thinks about it and what he could do instead. I mean, I guess that when you're making a movie you never rule out anything that can make your project better. There's no "myth" here, IMO. It's just a simple evolution of the original concept.
fishmanlee said:
Ludwig
the book's author J.W. Rinzler quotes Lucas saying....
Honestly, what hasn't Lucas been quoted saying? Dude has told so many fucking truths and facts about the history of the franchise that it's impossible to make sense of them all. 1 film, 3 films, 6 films, 9 films, 12 films, brother\sister, not related, thought it up on the fly, Original Vision, adventures of Luke, tragedy of Vader, shot first, shot second, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam.
To paraphrase from Apocalypse Now; With Lucas, the bullshit piles up so fast, you need wings to stay above it.
I've said it before, I'll say it again; When he gives an interview, Lucas should just burp the alphabet.
Anchorhead said:
Honestly, what hasn't Lucas been quoted saying? Dude has told so many fucking truths and facts about the history of the franchise that it's impossible to make sense of them all. 1 film, 3 films, 6 films, 9 films, 12 films, brother\sister, not related, thought it up on the fly, Original Vision, adventures of Luke, tragedy of Vader, shot first, shot second, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam.
Well at least it makes his interviews interesting. I kinda hate it when some people repeat same old crap in every interview. :D
真実
It's sad. The man should be such an inspiration, to hear him talk would be to learn from a master... yet anything he says about the creative process I automatically assume is not true.
It's kind of funny, but mostly sad, that many here have become so accustomed to bashing and disbelieving anything George has to say that they'll make dispirited remarks about him even when the topic doesn't warrant it. I don't see what any of this has to do with disproving 'lies' he has supposedly told about the music of the film. It seems much more to do with the evolving nature of how one thinks about a project and how time may obscure certain details that were once clearer. There's no coverup or self-aggrandizing going on here.
For my part, I would never seek to belittle or negate the importance of his contributions to the landmark film he directed. Whatever may have happened later, there's no doubt he had some truly genius ideas and did a lot of really great work on it back then. I would urge that none of us here ever forget that, regardless of what we think of anything else he may have done or said.
TheBoost and hairy_hen are both very correct.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
(It hasn’t happened yet)
This is the great thing about about the Sequel Trilogy, is that stuff like the PT and George Lucas quotes are secondary to the anticipation of Episode 7. Trust me, I used to get obsessed over every Lucas quote, but the guy sold to Disney so I am kinda of over it now.
hairy_hen said:
...many here have become so accustomed to bashing and disbelieving anything George has to say that they'll make dispirited remarks about him even when the topic doesn't warrant it.
The article is about the difficulty of finding out the truth about how the score was either chosen or evolved. It references quotes Lucas made on the subject. Considering the 30+ years a great many of us have watched Lucas tell wildly different versions of nearly every aspect of the film, discussion of his dishonesty is warranted.
Well if we are honest, Lucas was not the only person from the production crew who made stuff up.
For example at the peak of Lucas hating era, Kurtz tried to exploit it to make himself look good. In an interview he went on about how he left Star Wars because he didn't like Ewoks and the direction Lucas was going with ROTJ. While in fact he was removed by Lucas during ESB production and replaced by Kazanjian.
Another example, in his interviews Kershner always told this story about "I love you" "I know". He stated that they were repeating "I love you too" over and over again and that he didn't like it and then Ford just said the new line at some point. While apparently Ford was the one who didn't like it when reading the script and came to Kershner before they shot the scene with "I know" suggestion and then they did it.
真実
imperialscum said:
Another example, in his interviews Kershner always told this story about "I love you" "I know". He stated that they were repeating "I love you too" over and over again and that he didn't like it and then Ford just said the new line at some point. While apparently Ford was the one who didn't like it when reading the script and came to Kershner before they shot the scene with "I know" suggestion and then they did it.
He credited Ford with that in some, apparently.
The version of the story I heard from him is that they did a take with the original line, then Kershner said he didn't like the line, and Ford came up with it in the next take. It could just be a memory thing, and not outright lying. He could have just remembered his dislike of the line, and forgotten whether or not he or Ford brought it up first.
imperialscum said:
Well if we are honest, Lucas was not the only person from the production crew who made stuff up.
For stuff that old, I'm sure a lot of half-forgotten details get fudged or moved around. Everyone's the big hero of their own personal life story, and details that run counter to that narrative sometimes just get automatically thrown out or altered if for nothing else but to make remembering the big picture easier. Not necessarily in some self-aggrandizing way, either. Just a matter of "I made a hell of a lot of dialogue updates. Here is one dialogue update in Empire. There's a memory gap of who made the update, but what the hell chances are I did it." And the rest is (revisionist) history.
I think the misstatements by Lucas fit this mold, but they seem a little more jarring than some others because it's often not merely a matter of switching around a few dates, actions, or cause and effect, so much as creating a whole parallel universe of pseudo-facts to support the narrative of the genius director working outside the Hollywood system, producing a few promising proto-films in the seventies and eighties, and then really coming into his form and making several wildly-critically-acclaimed indie films in the nineties and beyond.
