BioShock!!! (1, 2 and Infinite and SPOILERS)

Reappropriated thread:

A place for C3PX and me (and anyone else (probably pictures of ice cream from Frink)) to discuss BioShock.  Plenty of SPOILERS to abound.

Old thread:

This is an idea I am excited about and I don't know whom else to tell about it, so it's going here.  This will really only be of interest to fans of BioShock (and even then it might not be that interesting) and it only contains mild spoilers for BS1.

I've heard that they wanted 5 or 6 sequels to BioShock.  I loved BS1, and I also loved BS2 (that's for another post!) but I have a hard time thinking it all won't be played out before BS3 is done.  I had that same worry going into BS2, but I actually really liked it, so maybe my scepticism isn't paying off.

I love the world of Rapture and I thought one of the only ways I'd be really interested in returning there a third time is if it's Rapture BTF (before the fall).  This is what BS2 Multiplayer is supposed to be, but it's also very light in the story department.  No, I want to see Rapture before the fall, and not after and not during.  But that might not make a very good action game.  :(  So, I started thinking that maybe it didn't have to be an action game!  Sure, it could have action in it... just like BS1/2 have other things besides just action...  But that the story or the mystery would be centre place, and the action would be far behind.  So, what kind of game is that?  An Adventure game!  Better yet, A First Persion Private Investigator - Solve the Mystery Adventure Game. 

Or an "FPPIStMAG".  Probably the first of its kind! 

Well, it's not when I thought more about it, I realized that it would actually be like a modernized Tex Murphy sequel.

What do you think about that?

That would actually be kind of cool. I am not much into modern adventure games (though back in the Lucas Arts days I was a big fan), but I would play this one just because I like the world of Bioshock so much.

However, I think you could have a Bioshock prequel with a lot of action. Through audio diaries we learn of all sorts of crazy stuff going on in Rapture. CIA were sending spies, smuggling was running rampant, citizens were attacking small girls in order to get a symbiotic seas slug out of their stomachs, freaky mutant in diving suits were made in order to guard the little girls. Then of course there was the civil war. Yeah, the multiplayer used this period for its setting, but an actual game set at that time could be cool.

I really loved the first Bioshock, and unfortunately have been too busy to beat the second one, but really enjoyed what I have played of it. But I am weary of it getting too popular and destroying its self. The release of the second one made me feel confident that they could keep a good thing going, but I am still cautious.

I actually think putting you in the role of a CIA agent during the early days of Rapture could be pretty cool. You could be sent to find out as much about the place as possible. For enemies you could have local Rapture law enforcement, Fontain's mob, and even Subject Delta could make an appearance as a boss enemy.

Something I never had time for, but was still very intrigued by was the Something in the Sea web game. It made Rapture sound just as interesting from the outside looking in, as from the inside. I'd almost like to see a game take that angle. Or stretch it even further and take things beyond Rapture. Maybe some citizens of Rapture left right when things started to get ugly and began their own city, full of many of the same innovations as Rapture on some remote island someplace. Your character could shipwreck on this island and begin trying to figure out the mysteries of the strange technology he find everywhere while trying to survive against hoards of madmen. Or maybe the Splicers on the surface found ways not to go insane or oversplice and remain normal, but are still opposed to outsiders and intend to eliminate you.

I'd actually like to see something like that above all else. Audio diaries could explain how they foresaw the fall of Rapture and took their families and left. As pretty as Rapture is, we have seen it, and I'd love to see what they could do in a different setting. Fighting a Big Daddy in the jungle, with trees burning from the garnade he just lobbed is something that would get me excited. Seeing a Big Daddy walking along a sunny beach hand in hand with a Little Sister is something that would get me as excited as when I played Bioshock for the first time. Maybe the guys on this island figured out another way to get ADAM without using small girls as hosts to the sea slugs. Honestly, with a world as interesting as that of Bioshock, the possibilities are endless. Unfortunately, imagination is often lost when a franchise outgrows itself. I hope that is not the case with BS.

As much as I like BS 2, I am not sure I would want to play a third game unless they do something really different.

Don't think LucasArts adventure games too hard.  Something more along the lines of Elder Scrolls or Fallout 3 or maybe even Mass Effect.  But all of those have "random action encounters" in the "wilderness"and the BioShock Detective game probably wouldn't have that, or have a "wilderness" area where that could take place.  Rather it would have specific action setpieces at specific times... but more "quest" or "story" or "mystery" focused like those games I just listed than the "go into an area, shoot everything that moves, then find the switch that opens the door to the next area, repeat" kind of action-story mix that the current BS games offer.  Though I do love the audio journals.

C3PX, have you played Assassin's Creed II yet?  (I could just look at your xbox.com profile.  And I probably will... but I'm too busy typing just now)  In the game you find these "clues" for lack of better term and you have to solve them.  In the game they are encrypted computer files and you have to solve the "encryption scheme" to open them.  The schemes themselves, though, are pretty interesting.  There are 20 total in the game and I've spent a lof of time anxiously waiting to find the next one because they are truly intiguing.  They are part brain teaser, part logic puzzle, part story based enigma.  There's a slight air of them being similar to 7th Guest Chess puzzles or, shock!, BioShock's Pipedream mini-game for hacking... (mini games that have nothing, really, to do with the story, and are reinterpretations of simple games) but they actually seem to really work within the narrative of ACII and I think something like that would really work well in this BioShock Detective game I'm dreaming about.  It's also vaguely similar to Mass Effect using the Tower of Hanoi mini game to restart an AI interface, but less "shoehorned in".  I guess, it's a very well done version of the puzzles in, tada! Tex Murphy.

I guess I just want new Tex Murphy games, darnit.

Awkward segue!

I'm thinking about your Jungle Island game, and I think that would actually (excuse my bluntness) feel more like a souless cash-in.  It seems it would be like a repeat of the first game, but with the setting changed.  Like Die Hard on a Bus.  Or Speed in a Skyscraper or something.  Although the imagery of a Big Daddy tearing through a tropical island jungle does give me chills!

But your CIA comment- That's more along the lines of what I was thinking.  What I was actually thinking was this: (I had to write some of this down, because I was pretty excited about it!)

I thought it would be really great to start the game in San Fransisco in 1949.  According to: http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Chronological_Timeline the major founders of Rapture disappeared during the summer of 1946 and the city was finished later that same year.  Also, you could mirror some of the "beginning of a new decade" rumination that occured in the first BioShock.  The story would start when a case is brought to our seasoned private eye.  Probably a missing persons case.  A wife, whose tycoon husband has died, but the circumstances were very superstitious.  She thinks he had a mistress and she's concerned that perhaps his death was more than what it appeared to be and that perhaps the mistress has some of her money or something (maybe she received the inheritance, but that there is a large portion of it missing).  Of course, to jump to the end point, this guy's not really dead, he's run away to Rapture.  And there was a mistress, but he was cheating in bigger ways.  He and his wife didn't see eye-to-eye philosophically or politically.  They were young when they got married, and they realized how different they were over the years, but they stayed together for financial and "keeping up appearances" reasons (it was the 40s).  When he was invited to move to Rapture (bizarre invitation!) he saw it as an opportunity to leave her behind as well. ---

The 40's setting in the "surface" world would be an exciting way of showing the gamer the socio-political landscape Ryan was in when he left to found Rapture.  As the PI investigates the circumstances of this guy's death, he learns all about the political pieces that motivated this guy in particular to move to Rapture.  PI undercovers the fake companies, and the similar disappearances of the other people who have left for Rapture.

Eventually the PI is on the trail of Rapture and Ryan and not so much the missing husband.  This leads him all over the country and then all over the world and eventually to an access point to Rapture.  Once in Rapture, he does track down the guy.  He meets Ryan and perhaps some of the other Rapture leaders.  This seems like pretty much a full game, but we just got to Rapture, so either you have to do it in 2 halves, a Surface and a Rapture segment and make them somewhat equal time length wise.  Or you go ahead and sign yourself up to do 2 games.  The story I just described, and then a sequel which shows you this PI still in Rapture several years later.  Perhaps someone is looking for him, and perhaps not.  In either case, he can investigate something in Rapture itself just as it's starting to burst at the seams.  Maybe make this 1958 or something.  He can be instrumental in uncovering the Ryan/Fontaine struggle right as it's all coming apart.

And, of course, work in the CIA and KGB trying to infiltrate Rapture.  And a dame.  It has to have a dame.

It would certainly be a genre change.  Sort of like Mario Bros -> Super Mario Bros -> Mario 64.  Or Halo -> Halo Wars.  Or Star Craft -> Star Craft Ghost, etc...  Not only would there be far less gunplay, but I don't think I would want to retread the Plasmid/Tonic/Eve/Adam mechanic that the first two gaves have had.  Maybe some very limited plasmid use, but very different.

Anyways, that's what's been going through my brain on the subject.  I just want to see and explore the world of Rapture prior to the fall.  Is that so much to ask?

I'm curious to see how LA Noir ends up.  If it's GTA in the 40s, I probably won't care.  But the article about it in GameInformer 6 months ago or so made it seem like it might be more of a detective mystery, which is apparently what I want.

C3PX, I see from your gamertag info that you have not played ACII yet, and futhermore that you tired AC1 for about 20 minutes before quitting forever.  You should give ACII a chance to change your mind.

I was also thinking an interesting angle would be to have someone from the far future timetraveling back to Rapture Before the Fall trying to find an artifact or some technology or something.  It took me until late yesterday evening to realize I was subconsciously cribbing from Assassin's Creed again.  I guess I have that game on the brain too.

Here's the original pitch for BioShock as presented by Ken Levine. http://irrationalgames.com/insider/from-the-vault-june/

Funny, the tropical island from C3PX's post actually makes an appearance here.  Pretty interesting!

It blew my mind.

C3PX, I'm waiting for you to re-enter this thread since you are probably the only other one who cares.  Did I make you mad by dumping on your contributions?

No! Not at all. Just because I think it would be a cool idea doesn't mean you have to agree with me.

I was hoping more people would pitch in. Plenty of members of this forum have played Bioshock, but it doesn't look like they are going to bite. That link you posted was very interesting. I had read the stuff about you originally being a ex-black ops guy who is now a cult deprogrammar and the kidnapped daughter bit. But I don't remember the island.

Now I am almost thinking that they should forget Rapture and go back to this story line for the next game. They could still tie it into Rapture and keep it feeling like a Bioshock game. There was some really cool stuff in there I'd still like to see. I enjoy the whole Island of Doctor Moreau vibe it had going.

So, C3PX... I've had no one to discuss this with and so I'm going to force you (after the Rand'ian fashion) to discuss it with me.

*Ahoy!  Thar be BioShock 1 SPOILERS ahead!* </salty sea pirate>

Did Objectivism fail Andrew Ryan/Rapture or did Andrew Ryan/Rapture fail Objectivism?  Was Adam the X-Factor that Objectivism didn't and couldn't have accounted for which unraveled the whole sociopolitical theory?  Or did Ryan not have the moral fibre to not get jealous of Fontaine and therefore become the godking that he hated so much?

Did Ryan not institute enough personal freedom (religion, contact with the surface, etc.) and that brought about rebellion?  Or, in the context of the story, does Objectivism just not work?  It seems to have worked wonderfully for a period of time (10 years) and then it fell apart.  If you think it's the fault of the people, I find myself asking this: If the people of Rapture couldn't make Objectivism work, can anybody?

How did the game change your perspective on Objectivism?  For myself, though the story might be a cautionary tale against objectivism and Ryan might have been the villain of the piece... I still find myself admiring Ryan and pining for a society like Rapture (pre civil war, pre Adam, of course)

*Mild BioShock 2 SPOILERS ahead*

And what do you make of the sequel where a cult of Altruists are the antithesis to Ryan's Objectivist distopia?  Are the game makers/storytellers saying that Objectivism as an extreme is bad, but that Altruists (forced/compelled Altruism or Socialism) are even worse?  If the 2nd game compares Altruism to Selfish Objectivism... what are the opposing philosophies of the first game?  Is it just about failed objectivism, or is it about chaos vs objectivism?

Finally- I loved the Ryan Amusements Museum/Ride.  I thought that was really well done.

 

And what do you make of the sequel where a cult of Altruists are the antithesis to Ryan's Objectivist distopia?  Are the game makers/storytellers saying that Objectivism as an extreme is bad, but that Altruists (forced/compelled Altruism or Socialism) are even worse?  If the 2nd game compares Altruism to Selfish Objectivism... what are the opposing philosophies of the first game?  Is it just about failed objectivism, or is it about chaos vs objectivism?

Finally- I loved the Ryan Amusements Museum/Ride.  I thought that was really well done.

I actually really like this subject, and will give a more lengthy response when I have the time.

I think the first game was definitely just trying to say outright that Objectivism is bad and a society based on Objectivism like Rapture, is doomed for failure. Being a bit of an idealistic fan of Objectivism, I don't exactly agree with that message, but I concede that it would be extremely hard to create such a society with any sort of success, and that in such a society excluded from the outside world like that, perhaps Rapture isn't too far off the mark. This is the sort of discussion I wanted to have after first playing the game, but never found anyone who had played it that really cared to take much time to consider the social and political aspects of the game's story, rather the deepest they could get was "Holy crap! That "a man acts, a slave obeys" and "would you kindly" stuff was really deep!". So even though this is a few years delayed, it is a very welcome discussion (though I fully predict the enjoyment of it will take a few hits due to an excess amount of nonsensical ice cream jokes).

I found it both strange and cool that the sequel took the opposite direction with the altruistic (almost communist) cult. I will give more indepth thoughts on all of this later.

Still not done with the second game, but I have been making progress over the last few days, as you saw for yourself. I am realizing that it is a whole lot more diffucult than the first. The first one I played through on the hardest and never found anything too frustrating, this one I am playing on normal and on several occasions have been tempted to turn the difficulty down. Funny that my old methods from the first game for effortlessly felling Big Daddies still works flawlessly, but when I find myself fighting two or more splicers at a time I find my med packs disappearing one after the other.

And yeah, Ryan Amusments was extremely cool. I spent a while admiring the anamatronic Andrew Ryan, then moved on and actually missed the 9-Irony achievement. So I have to start a new game and go back and snag that one sometime. :(

C3PX said: 

I actually really like this subject, and will give a more lengthy response when I have the time.

YOU HAD BETTER!

I think the first game was definitely just trying to say outright that Objectivism is bad and a society based on Objectivism like Rapture, is doomed for failure.

I get a similar sense, but it brings me back to this question: Why would Ken Levine or other people spend so much of their time lovingly crafting an Objectivist paradise if their opinion of it was that it was bad and doomed for failure.  Therefore, my conclusion is somewhat nearer the one I make for Harrison Ford's character Allie Fox in Peter Weir's (and Paul Theroux's) Mosquito Coast.  Mosquito Coast is a movie that breaks my heart because I believe and think like Fox does to certain degree.  And I sometimes fantasize about trying what he tries... but I realize that there's truthfully about zero practicality to it.  To return to Rapture- it seems to me that Levine wouldn't have bothered with Objectivism if he wasn't an admirer, but that he believes that an attempt to set it up would only be met with disaster.

Being a bit of an idealistic fan of Objectivism, I don't exactly agree with that message, but I concede that it would be extremely hard to create such a society with any sort of success, and that in such a society excluded from the outside world like that, perhaps Rapture isn't too far off the mark.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say just above.

This is the sort of discussion I wanted to have after first playing the game, but never found anyone who had played it that really cared to take much time to consider the social and political aspects of the game's story,

I bought and sent a copy of the game to a friend of mine with whom I have these conversations occaisonaly.  That was 2 years ago... he still hasn't killed Dr. Steinman.  So I've given up waiting for him.  I tried to get my wife to play it, but she can't get past the gore... though she would love the philosophy.  And then I popped over to the 2K forums (from the Cult of Rapture website) after posting what I posted here a month ago... and it seems all of those guys have already had these conversations, and they don't want to have them again...  So I came back here.

 rather the deepest they could get was "Holy crap! That "a man acts, a slave obeys" and "would you kindly" stuff was really deep!".

Yes, some of the blokes at the 2K forum thought that Rapture was a socialist experiment.  Where're Frink's facepalming GIFs when you need them.

I found it both strange and cool that the sequel took the opposite direction with the altruistic (almost communist) cult. I will give more indepth thoughts on all of this later.

Excellent!

Still not done with the second game, but I have been making progress over the last few days, as you saw for yourself. I am realizing that it is a whole lot more diffucult than the first.

Nothing was as hard for me as the finale to BS1.  I actually really appreciated the free flow of the "reaping" segments of the game.  You could really plan those out and set up traps and strategy ahead of time.  The first game had "boss battles" but I felt that the reaping mechanic in this game was really its own thing.  Your abilities and the situations of the reaping change so much over the course of the game, that I never felt that they were too repetitive.  Though, I do remember counting them down near the end of the game.

Funny that my old methods from the first game for effortlessly felling Big Daddies still works flawlessly,

Do tell!

but when I find myself fighting two or more splicers at a time I find my med packs disappearing one after the other.

Hmm... I can't say I remember having particular trouble with splicers.  I favored the rivet gun and the shotgun, and the ice and electrical plasmids  But I did let roving turrets do a lot of my dirty work.

And yeah, Ryan Amusments was extremely cool. I spent a while admiring the anamatronic Andrew Ryan, then moved on and actually missed the 9-Irony achievement. So I have to start a new game and go back and snag that one sometime. :(

Luckily I had a save I was able to load on that level.  I did appreciate that the club was there near his desk on my first play through... I just didn't think to pick it up and club him with it.

Speaking of which, I missed the ability to backtrack, but I understand they couldn't do that AND the flooding mechanic and that it works better for this game to be more linear like that... but I still missed it.

I liked the morality of being able to execute some of the NPCs for their alleged crimes against humanity, Rapture, or yourself... but didn't need to repeat the "save or harvest" mechanic from the first game.

I think the "morality" in my imaginary BioShock 0 Detective game would be more along the lines of getting to say what you really feel about the Objectivist society.  Not that it necessarily changes much... but as opposed to "do you want to be good or bad?" the game would say "do you think this idea is a good one or a bad one" and let the player speak his own mind.

xhonzi said:

Funny that my old methods from the first game for effortlessly felling Big Daddies still works flawlessly,

Do tell!

Sadly, it worked at the beginning of BS2 before I got more powerful, later in the game all it took was holding the trigger on my drill down in their face for a few seconds. Disappointing. I was happy to see the Rumblers appear in this game, after having seen them in concept art for the first game, but they were way too easy to take out, and they were the only BD's appearing in later levels, usually you want things like that to get harder, not easier. Not sure where they were going with that one. Guess they decided getting the Little Sisters should be fairly easy since you have so much else to deal with, but it killed a lot of the fun for me.

My method in the first game, since you asked, was to plasmid a BD, toss some lead at him, dodge his charge, run away, turn around, plasmid, lead, dodge, run, repeat. That was for Bouncers. Rosies were always a lot harder for me, Circling while shooting, dodging, and taking cover and utilizing turrets and cameras when I could was the best way I found to handle them. 

Hmm... I can't say I remember having particular trouble with splicers.  I favored the rivet gun and the shotgun, and the ice and electrical plasmids  But I did let roving turrets do a lot of my dirty work.

After writing my last post, I found that gene tonic that significantly slows down your EVE consumption but makes it so that you can only use the drill, camera, and hack tool. I decided to go for it, fell in love with it, and never went back for the rest of the game. I discovered the mini-turrets around that time too, they made the Little Sister gathering events much more manageable.

Over all, I found the game to be much more simple than the first and most definitely not on par with it. Not a worthy sequel, but a fun side quest. It was fun to revisit Rapture and to take on the role of a Big Daddy. Protecting the Little Sisters was fun and very different from anything in the first. I absolutely loved the part where you play as the Little Sister and see Rapture and the Splicers (live and dead) through her eyes.The Big Sister fights were okay, but nothing like the thrill I got from facing a Big Daddy in BS1.

Really annoying, I beat it without using a single vita-chamber, turned the things off right after I started the game, and for some reason it didn't give me the achievements. Oh well.

C3PX said:

I absolutely loved the part where you play as the Little Sister and see Rapture and the Splicers (live and dead) through her eyes. 

That was the moment when I most wanted to play a whole game set in the glory days of Rapture.

Im intrigued by Bioshock if theres a pc version thats not too demanding on the computer I might have a look, but im all for a decent story in a game and like the 1950's style look that ive heard is used in the game.

maybe someone could take the game footage and make a movie of it :)

Just play it on your 360!

Oh...

Wait...

(Yes, there is a PC version, no there's not a PSP version, and I don't know if your PC will run it well...  But the game does take some 'stick-to-it-ive-ness' that I'm now not sure you've got...

C3PX said:

Really annoying, I beat it without using a single vita-chamber, turned the things off right after I started the game, and for some reason it didn't give me the achievements. Oh well.

 

I see you have this achievment now... did you have to go through some shenanigans, or did you not notice when it unlocked originally?

Just loaded up a save and had another go at the very end and it gave it to me, I knew I hadn't accidentally used a single vita-chamber. Not sure why it didn't take the first time. Some sort of glitch I guess.

Since I had no takers here on meeting up and playing over the weekend, but still felt like playing something and yet not wanting to start anything new, I decided to load up an audiobook on my iPod (now that I am not worried about missing story details) and set out to mindlessly beat BS2 on hard. Already in Siren's Alley. Since it is the lone single player achievement I don't have for the game, it seems a shame just to let it be. Especially when I was complaining about some aspects of the game being too easy on normal (Big Daddies and Big Sisters are still cake, but groups of Splicers are a nightmare). I would have sought the challenge of getting every achievement for the game, but there are all those stupid multi-player ones. I gave the multi-player an honest chance, but never could get myself to enjoy it.

Which audio book?