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Info Wanted: Is there 5.1 surround sound on the Despecialized Editions?

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 (Edited)

Hi peepz,

Just wondering about the sound on the Despecialized editions… I don’t get the correct surround output from those MKV files… they seem to have AC3 format which should be right for my Pioneer AV receiver… but still I am not getting the correct usage from the back speakers… and the voices are not in the center speaker… but spill out into the other speakers as well…

I know most receivers dont handle AAC…which gives only a stereo output… but the Specialized versions are in AC3 right? Am I missing something here or are those released in 2.0 sound only?

Any info on this would be much appreciated 😉

peace,

Rebelscum
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The 2.5 version of Star Wars has DTS-HD

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No problem with the audio here. What are you using to play these files?

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I'm using a WD TV Live player which goes through my Pioneer AV receiver via HDMI... I have no problems with any of the files I'm using... either AC3 or DTS... but somehow I'm not getting the right sound layout from these MKV's...

The files are close to 7GB's each (from Piratebay)

Maybe somebody messed with those files before uploading them on there...hmmm

peace,

Rebelscum
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Rebelscum said:

I'm using a WD TV Live player which goes through my Pioneer AV receiver via HDMI... I have no problems with any of the files I'm using... either AC3 or DTS... but somehow I'm not getting the right sound layout from these MKV's...

The files are close to 7GB's each (from Piratebay)

Maybe somebody messed with those files before uploading them on there...hmmm

Your best bet is probably downloading the 2.5 MKV from Myspleen. Got a login or do you need a invite?

Currently enjoying Disney Infinity 3.0

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And make sure you read the first post, so you don't feel like you should PM me. :p

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Just ran the Harmy Star Wars 2.5 mkv (19.21GB) on my WD TV Live through my Pioneer AV receiver and I don't get the correct surround imaging... the center channel spills out into the front speakers... I dont get the proper foley effects... 

I don't understand this... this seems to be DTS-HD-MA sound files... but are not encoded properly by my receiver, which I have had no problems with on any other files that contain surround information, like DTS and AC3.

Is no one else experiencing problems getting the proper surround sound from these files?

peace,

Rebelscum
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 (Edited)

Nope.  Sounds fine here.

EDIT: Waitasec... are you expecting the dialogue to be EXCLUSIVELY on the center channel?!?

Nope, you're hearing it right.  This is an upmix from Dolby surround encoded stereo.  There's no way you're getting that sort of bleed-free channel separation.  It's unlikely it was that way theatrically either.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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I'm comparing the 2.5 MKV with the sound on my 2004 DVD's... and the MKV is just missing too much surround information... like for example all the panning from the back speakers to the front speakers when ships zoom away or from the screen... I get none of those effects. 

Also for example the scene at the beginning when we first see C-3PO and R2 onboad the Tantive IV... on my DVD's you can clearly hear the background explosions on the rear speakers... but on the MKV that separation is lost and the explosions are heard in the front speakers. 

And also you can hear much more of the music spill out into the rear speakers on the DVD's... on the 2.5 MKV things are silent most of the time. I can also hear the dialogue in the rear speakers. Strange. And when I switch right back to another movie on the WD TD Live it all sound perfect.  

peace,

Rebelscum
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 (Edited)

Rebelscum said:

I'm comparing the 2.5 MKV with the sound on my 2004 DVD's... and the MKV is just missing too much surround information... like for example all the panning from the back speakers to the front speakers when ships zoom away or from the screen... I get none of those effects. 

Also for example the scene at the beginning when we first see C-3PO and R2 onboad the Tantive IV... on my DVD's you can clearly hear the background explosions on the rear speakers... but on the MKV that separation is lost and the explosions are heard in the front speakers. 

And also you can hear much more of the music spill out into the rear speakers on the DVD's... on the 2.5 MKV things are silent most of the time. I can also hear the dialogue in the rear speakers. Strange. And when I switch right back to another movie on the WD TD Live it all sound perfect.  

 This is all correct. The 5.1 on Despecialized is a recreation of the original 70mm track (done fantastically by Hairy-Hen), which would be mixed very differently from the 2004 dvd.

The dialogue spills into the rears ocasonally because it's an upmix from a stereo track.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture DE - The Anti-DNR Fanedit
Duel (1971) - The Hybrid Cut
The Phantom of the Opera - 1925 Version Reconstruction - Rare Scores Collection - Roy Budd Score

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Ok I see... I had assumed that the DTS HD MA track was taken from the Blu ray's.. and then modified to eliminate any "special edition" additions.

I really enjoy the sound on the DVD's... with all the surround actitivity...  kinda miss that when watching the exceptional video quality on Harmy's 2.5 MKV.

Maybe there are some plans to include the Blu Ray soundtracks on Harmy's versions? The best of video and the best of audio.  

peace,

Rebelscum
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Well, the thing is, the Special Edition's soundtrack was redone from scratch, IIRC, so it's not technically original, even if you somehow eliminate the SE additions.

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I would recommend listening with Hairy Hen's excellent restoration. The 2004 mix is frankly terrible. It's severely lacking in treble sound, with a low droning bass noise, and a muffled compressed sound. There is no dynamic range except for when the sound effects are cranked up for selected shots, often drowning out the music. In comparison, the 70mm has lots of dynamic range.

Here's a comparison of the two mixes:

http://www.mediafire.com/?avv1d8izol8hy3t

Star Trek: The Motion Picture DE - The Anti-DNR Fanedit
Duel (1971) - The Hybrid Cut
The Phantom of the Opera - 1925 Version Reconstruction - Rare Scores Collection - Roy Budd Score

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Yea I'm all for preserving the original audio… but when it comes to enjoying my home theater setup… the 2004 soundtrack (at least on my setup) is more enjoyable and much more immersing, with all speakers getting some workout. Some of the changes might seem a bit "gimmicky" but on the whole I like the surround sound on those DVD's. 

Wish someone could combine Harmy's great quality work with some more up to date sound… either from the Blu Rays or the DVD's….

peace,

Rebelscum
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Rebelscum said:

Wish someone could combine Harmy's great quality work with some more up to date sound… either from the Blu Rays or the DVD's….

 Why not give it a shot yourself?

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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So . . . the main complaint here is that the Despecialized Edition does not sound anything like the official DVD, despite the fact that the official release was remixed from scratch with no regard to how it was done originally.

The problem here is evident, because as has been stated, the entire mix itself constitutes a massive 'special edition change', so even if it could be edited to remove the more obvious alterations, it still wouldn't wouldn't be anything like what was heard prior to 2004.  Certainly it could never be included in any project claiming to be a restoration of the theatrical release from 1977.

Aesthetic preference for one version over another is entirely up to individual choice.  But I must admit to being dismayed at the dismissal of my work in favor of a remix whose faults—including flattened dynamics, lack of high frequency response, poor balance between background and foreground elements, music cues too low in level or missing altogether, certain effects and dialogue being enormously distorted, incorrect placement of elements within the sound field relative to their position on screen, some effects even being out of synch to the image altogether—are so obvious.

It is important, I think, to keep in mind that films at that time were in some ways mixed quite differently than they are today.  Surround channels were mono and used mainly for ambience, with music and more flashy sounds appearing less often, though always to great effect when they did appear.  The main intention was usually to create a diffuse, wide layer of sound that seemed to emanate from all directions simultaneously, and when a sharper and more noticeable usage was called for, the mixers frequently relied upon a technique known as a '2-4 punch': mixing a loud sound effect into channels 2 and 4 (ie, center and surround) simultaneously.  In a properly calibrated system, this produces a huge, nearly unlocalizable jolt of acoustic energy that fills the room in a startling and satisfying way, and the original mixes of the Star Wars films make great use of it.  Examples include the blockade runner's engine before the ship appears, Leia's cell door slamming shut as Vader begins to interrogate her, Ben's roar to frighten away the sand people, the sound of his lightsaber in the cantina when he defeats the attacking thugs, the landspeeder's entry into Mos Eisley, Luke deflecting the shots of the training remote, the slap-echo of his voice in the Death Star chasm, and Ben distracting the guards at the tractor beam, among others.

It is worth noting that none of these surround usages appear in the 2004 mix at all; they are all much lower in level and confined to the front channels only.  Despite being flashy, the remix pays no attention whatsoever to the original sound design and does not even come close to replicating its vastly powerful dynamic range.

Also, to be fair, the real 70mm mix had discrete channels while my recreation does not; the only publicly available authentic source was a matrixed stereo downmix from laserdisc, which had to be upmixed in software in order to combine it with the custom LFE channel.  It is delivered in 5.1 format for the sake of compatibility with home theater systems (the six-track mix on 70mm prints was actually a '4.2' format, meaning left, right, center, surround, plus two bass channels).  The real thing would have superior imaging, though mine approximates it quite nicely, particularly in version 2.5 where the channel separation is improved.  So while it isn't quite ideal in every respect, it's the closest anyone could get to hearing what the film is supposed to sound like without access to the actual master tapes.

I urge you to keep an open mind and listen to the mix again, this time without preconceived bias in favor of something that bears no resemblance to the intentions of the mixers at the time the movie was made.  You may find it more satisfying, both as an example of the evolving history of film sound and in its own right.  In any event, its sound quality is so far superior to the remix that I would be very happy never to hear the latter again, and would certainly not participate in a version of the movie that included it.  If after this (and perhaps a check to make sure the sound system is properly calibrated) it still fails to impress, then I really don't know what else to say.

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I have not dvelved as deep into the soundtracks as some of you have... my experience is based of the simple fact that I like really immersive soundtracks... maybe the 70mm mix is richer in sound and more enjoyable in some ways... I am not disputing that... infact I will have to listen to it more to form my final opinion on that. Be that as it may... like I said... since purchasing my home theater setup a year back or so... I really enjoy soundtracks which take advantage of the whole spectrum of my 5.1 setup. Things like sounds moving from the front channels to the back and vice versa... and just overalll wide sound imaging. I like that. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the 70mm mix or other perservations mixes... those are made by passionate people who really care about the original sound recordings. It's good to have both actually... 

It's really simple... I just want to enjoy the Original Trilogy in the best way possible... and so far for me that is Harmy's awesome picture quality and a more aggressive surround soundtrack that has features from both the redone 2004 mix and the originals.

I haven't even listened to the Blu ray soundtracks... as I haven't bought those infernal things... but are they better than the DVD soundtracks in any way? 

peace,

Rebelscum
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They are at a higher bitrate. They restore the fanfare at the beginning of “The Last Battle” and unswitch the music in the rear channels of Star Wars… other than that, they're mostly just more and more revisions (“Nooooooo!”).

You seem to be valuing the bling over the content. Yes, it's nice to hear stuff zing around your home theater, but if a movie wasn't mixed that way in the first place, it wasn't mixed that way in the first place. There are so many problems with the balances and dynamic range on the DVD and Blu-ray tracks (I am particularly sensitive to what's happened to the music) that I am quite content to listen to hairy_hen's outstanding restoration of the original theatrical 70 millimeter six-track Dolby Stereo mix. I also happen to have a warm place in my heart for the 1985 Dolby Surround mix.

I stand by what I said. If you're not satisfied with that sound mix why don't you try building your own? Everybody who is working on a project here started somewhere.

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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There are pros and cons to both the mixes…. some of it I like on the DVD's… for example the back to front zooming… yes… I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. I also like the music spread out across the front and rears… and I really like it when the dialogue is center channel only.  But...I'm gonna take more time to listen to the Hairy Hen track on the 2.5 MKV. I agree that there are some areas where it outshines the tracks on the DVD's. 

Unfortunately I have no skills in video/audio editing to complete that big of a task like joining the DVD/blu ray soundtracks with Harmy's version… and editing out all the unwanted gimmicky bits on the soundtracks. Who know.. maybe someone out there will do this… I love my orginals but I also like "some" of the stuff they did to the movies later on, like the surround sound and fixing the black matte's around the ships etc. Most of it I hate of course… but with Harmy's version I think we've reached a really great outcome with the look and the feel of the OT. 

peace,

Rebelscum
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 (Edited)

I can't comment on the 2004 DVD or BD mixes as I've never heard them; I'm a little obsessive about "originality" and would always choose to watch, for example, Jaws or The Terminator with the original mono as opposed to a multi-channel mix. 

I can't see how anyone could not be blown away by the power in hairy_hen's 70mm recreation for Star Wars. You should particularly listen to the dynamic range during sequences such as the Falcon's escape from Mos Eisley, or the section from Ben Kenobi's demise to the dogfight with the sentry ships .

That said, when listening to hairy_hen's purist mix for Harmy's despecialized ROTJ, I noticed a significant amount of bleeding of dialogue from the centre channel into the front left and rights. I say significant because, if I play the 1993 mix through my receiver in Pro Logic II mode, this bleed is much reduced. I thought that the 5.1 mix was created from a Pro Logic II upmix in software, so this is surprising.

My receiver has several settings to customise the sound stage when using Pro Logic II upmixing: "Dimension" (adjusts the soundstage towards either the front or rear), "Center Width" (adjustment of the center image spread across the three front speakers) and "Panorama" (extends the front stereo image to the surround channels). I think these options are fairly standard on DPL II receivers, however, these are only available on my receiver in "music" mode, not in the "cinema" mode which I use to watch films.

Not sure if it is explained elsewhere, but h_h can you expand on the method you used to convert the 2.0 into 5.1? Did you have control over the "centre width" option?

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Possibly found the answer in the main thread:

hairy_hen said:

I guess I never did actually mention it here, having only talked about it sporadically in other threads, but there is indeed a new version of the 70mm mix out there.  The changes from the previous revision are minimal, with the main improvement coming from having used the Dolby Media Decoder application to upmix the laserdisc audio into five channels with Prologic II, which results in greater channel separation and consequently a more believable sound field. 

I'm guessing the audio on ROTJ has not yet been updated with this improved channel separation?

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Moth3r said:

Possibly found the answer in the main thread:

hairy_hen said:

I guess I never did actually mention it here, having only talked about it sporadically in other threads, but there is indeed a new version of the 70mm mix out there.  The changes from the previous revision are minimal, with the main improvement coming from having used the Dolby Media Decoder application to upmix the laserdisc audio into five channels with Prologic II, which results in greater channel separation and consequently a more believable sound field. 

I'm guessing the audio on ROTJ has not yet been updated with this improved channel separation?

 That's correct. Only Star Wars has that.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture DE - The Anti-DNR Fanedit
Duel (1971) - The Hybrid Cut
The Phantom of the Opera - 1925 Version Reconstruction - Rare Scores Collection - Roy Budd Score

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Yep.  Neither has ESB.

Back to the OP, it's just fairly unlikely anyone's going to do this other than yourself, Rebelscum, because the pairing is so odd.  The primary appeal (to me) of the DeEd is that it actually looks like a movie from the late 70's.  Having it sound like a movie from the 90's* while simultaneously looking like a movie from the 70's would seem, at least to me, pretty jarring.

* Except I don't actually think the Blu-ray mix sounds like a movie from the 90's--it sounds like a movie from the 70's that's gone through a weird warping/muddying wringer in a disastrous attempt to make it sound more like a movie from the 90's, but I realize this is subjective and I know some people really like it.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)