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4K restoration on Star Wars — Page 45

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MaximRecoil said:

 I don't disagree with any of that, but none of that makes the GOUT "terrible" or "horrible". If we place the GOUT on the "horrible" scale, then all of the LaserDisc releases were what? "Extra horrible"? And all of the LaserDisc transfers (TR47, Moth3r, Dr. Gonzo, etc.) were what? Extra extra horrible? And all of the VHS releases? Extra, extra, extra horrible?
Video standards change over time and fans doing what they can with limited resources is substantially different to a release from a multibillion dollar company with every resource at it's disposal. You're removing the context of the releases and comparing them as though they were done under the same conditions.


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Really don't see how anyone can defend the GOUT.

It's the best officially released source we have yes, but it's still unwatchable.

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Pretty sad that 'better than anything else officially available' still has to mean 'full of aliasing, DVNR smearing, excessive gate weave, badly faded colors, and general low resolution'.

It is only used as a source for the Despecialized Edition because it has to be.  Once there are 35mm sources for all the missing pieces, those sections will be replaced.

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twister111 said:

MaximRecoil said:

 I don't disagree with any of that, but none of that makes the GOUT "terrible" or "horrible". If we place the GOUT on the "horrible" scale, then all of the LaserDisc releases were what? "Extra horrible"? And all of the LaserDisc transfers (TR47, Moth3r, Dr. Gonzo, etc.) were what? Extra extra horrible? And all of the VHS releases? Extra, extra, extra horrible?

Video standards change over time and fans doing what they can with limited resources is substantially different to a release from a multibillion dollar company with every resource at it's disposal. You're removing the context of the releases and comparing them as though they were done under the same conditions.


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 Saying that something is "terrible" or "horrible" has no context, thus I couldn't have possibly removed the context. If you add context such as: "The GOUT is horrible compared to such and such", then that is something else entirely.

People were gushing over the Cowclops/TR47 v.2 release (link), and that was right around the time of the release of the GOUT (see post 706). People don't gush over things they think are simply "horrible" or "terrible", no matter who released it. With the GOUT (way better than the things people were gushing over), people are confusing their disappointment with an objective assessment of quality.

Gogogadget said:

Really don't see how anyone can defend the GOUT.

It's the best officially released source we have yes, but it's still unwatchable.

"Unwatchable"? More hyperbole. "Unwatchable" is a good word for those VCD encodes of theater bootlegs shot with a low-end camcorder that were circulating on the internet in the late '90s and early '00s. It is funny that this site thrived for years on copies of the OUT that were inferior to the "unwatchable" GOUT. I guess no one was actually watching their LDs or LD-to-DVD transfers back then, you know, because if the GOUT is "unwatchable", the LDs were "extra unwatchable" and the LD-to-DVD transfers were "extra, extra unwatchable".

Maybe you should try a TV for which 4:3 DVDs were intended.

hairy_hen said:

Pretty sad that 'better than anything else officially available' still has to mean 'full of aliasing, DVNR smearing, excessive gate weave, badly faded colors, and general low resolution'.

It is only used as a source for the Despecialized Edition because it has to be.  Once there are 35mm sources for all the missing pieces, those sections will be replaced.

That's not the point. The fact that the GOUT has enough quality to be used at all in that project is the point. If the GOUT were truly "terrible", "horrible", or "unwatchable", it obviously couldn't have been used with good results in that project (and by most accounts, the results were good).

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You are really over thinking this. The point is that we were given a sub-par release of these films. It was no where near the quality of DVDs of the time, and holds up less well today because we're used to high definition.

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MaximRecoil said:

 Saying that something is "terrible" or "horrible" has no context, thus I couldn't have possibly removed the context. If you add context such as: "The GOUT is horrible compared to such and such", then that is something else entirely.

People were gushing over the Cowclops/TR47 v.2 release (<a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Cowclops-Transfers-a-k-a-the-PCM-audio-DVDs-Row47-set-Info-and-Feedback-Thread/topic/1364/" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Cowclops-Transfers-a-k-a-the-PCM-audio-DVDs-Row47-set-Info-and-Feedback-Thread/topic/1364/">link</a>), and that was right around the time of the release of the GOUT (see post <a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Cowclops-Transfers-a-k-a-the-PCM-audio-DVDs-Row47-set-Info-and-Feedback-Thread/post/206268/#TopicPost206268" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Cowclops-Transfers-a-k-a-the-PCM-audio-DVDs-Row47-set-Info-and-Feedback-Thread/post/206268/#TopicPost206268">706</a>). People don't gush over things they think are simply "horrible" or "terrible", no matter who released it. With the GOUT (way better than the things people were gushing over), people are confusing their disappointment with an objective assessment of quality.
Dude you're entering lawyer-like territory. Context is inherent to communication in general. It's usually only questioned when people are confused or lawyers are trying to get some loophole in a contract. People aren't drawing up contracts here needing to specify the meaning of every word.

George Lucas could've kept the originals in great condition and released them to current High Definition home video standards. He didn't simply because he didn't want to. It's not for lack of resources or money he just didn't want to. He wanted to alter films, two of which weren't directed by him, and release his preferred versions in the highest quality. Leaving the theatrical versions in some non-anamorphic laserdisc master state. The other situations you're talking about are entirely different. The context matters.

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What about the anamorphic footage seen in the "Empire of Dreams" documentary back in 2004?  If I remember correctly, the footage presented seemed to be better quality (at least DVD quality) than the GOUT.  If so, would that suggest there was a better quality source available back in 2006 when the GOUT was released? 

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unamochilla2 said:

What about the anamorphic footage seen in the "Empire of Dreams" documentary back in 2004?  If I remember correctly, the footage presented seemed to be better quality (at least DVD quality) than the GOUT.  If so, would that suggest there was a better quality source available back in 2006 when the GOUT was released? 

 Yes I remember that. I vividly recall being stunned when I saw Boba Fett fall into the beakless Sarlac Pit, amongst other things, since I expected some revisionist crap where Lucas would try to make it seem like all his SE garbage was there since the beginning. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think that the original footage, maybe not the OCN but at least the IP, is in much better condition than we all think. I would imagine that they made a duplicate of the OCN before doing the SE, which if that was made around 1995 then it shouldn't be in bad shape now, especially not if it were stored correctly.

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Sure, if a fan posted the GOUT online back in 2006 it would've been great, but it all depends on circumstances. There was no reason for Lucasfilm to go that cheap, and the laserdisc master was pretty much the bottom of the OOT barrel for Lucasfilm. For example, Harmy's Despecialized are the most impressive Star Wars edits I've ever seen. Now, let's imagine that Lucasfilm went in and just covered up/edited out the SE changes with the GOUT, previous SE's, and an assortment of film sources and then released that. It'd be baffling and we'd all be pretty pissed off about it. Not because what they released was "bad" but because they have infinitely better sources at their disposal and could have used that to give us a legitimate DVD and blu ray of the unaltered films.

@MFM: I'm not sure what sources the doc. crew were using, but it definitely shows that Lucas was lying when he said that there were no sources other than the '93 tape. I also don't believe that Lucas has ever intentionally destroyed (or even let rot) any of his Star Wars materials. He's a hoarder, and even if he doesn't want anyone to see his stuff again, he won't destroy it. I'm betting that the restored OOT from the 90's restoration has been sitting on a computer at Lucasfilm Limited since the creation of the SE. 

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twister111 said:

Dude you're entering lawyer-like territory. Context is inherent to communication in general. It's usually only questioned when people are confused or lawyers are trying to get some loophole in a contract. People aren't drawing up contracts here needing to specify the meaning of every word.

I already addressed context, and this paragraph of yours doesn't logically follow from anything I said, much less refute anything I said. So once again, the claims I've replied to have no context of the type you're referring to, i.e., context which would change the meaning from an absolute statement to one of comparison. For example, in my first post about this I said:

"I loved the original "TR47" when I first discovered it in '05. However, I played it side by side with the GOUT the other day on my PC and it was horrible in comparison. Not only is the TR47 less detailed/clear, but the brightness and borders of the letterboxing constantly and rapidly flicker in it as well."

That whole paragraph established the context of a comparison, and even includes the words "in comparison" for good measure. Therefore the TR47 is horrible in a certain context, i.e., in comparison to the GOUT, and not just plain horrible. If it were just plain horrible it never would have become as popular as it did.

George Lucas could've kept the originals in great condition and released them to current High Definition home video standards. He didn't simply because he didn't want to. It's not for lack of resources or money he just didn't want to. He wanted to alter films, two of which weren't directed by him, and release his preferred versions in the highest quality. Leaving the theatrical versions in some non-anamorphic laserdisc master state.


Excellent reasons for disappointment. A disappointing level of quality isn't automatically a "horrendous", "terrible", or "unwatchable" level of quality.

The other situations you're talking about are entirely different. The context matters.


See above.

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MaximRecoil said:

Not exactly. LaserDisc = 425 lines of composite video (1 channel), while DVD = 480 lines of component video (3-channel, YPbPr).

Minor nitpick: You're confusing horizontal and vertical resolution. ALL NTSC LDs are 480i; that is, they have 480 visible* rows/scanlines and that's all you can say because LD video is analog and each scanline isn't composed of discretely quantized units such as pixels. For proof of this I suggest you research the design of CAV LDs, among other things.

The 425 value is an approximate of the number of columns per scanline as provided by Pioneer (and other LD manufacturers) in their LD literature. It's a TVL value, not a pixel count, so you'd have to multiply by 4/3 in order to get an approximate pixel count.

Want a real mindfuck? All NTSC VHS tapes are 480i as well. The columns per scanline on the other hand... well... they're a bit shy of the ~425TVL available on LD. :-P

(* The true visible value is somewhere between 483 and 486 depending on how you interpret the various standards related to the NTSC system. The only constant value here is 525 which includes both visible and "invisible" scanlines. This is why NTSC is called a 525-line system.)

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

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Maxim, let me try to clarify.  People consider the GOUT a "horrible RELEASE".  A "release" is a particular packaging of a movie that is officially produced and sold.  Releases are by their very definition embedded in the context of their release date.  Given the release date of the GOUT, "horrible" is an apt description because it doesn't meet baseline standards of releases at that time.  You're right it isn't a "horrible movie" or "horrible video quality", but it is a "horrible release".  That phrase requires no additional clarification of context.

A fan-edit is a completely different sort of "release" and would understandably not be held to the same standards.

I don't necessarily begrudge Lucasfilm using the laserdisc master for what he considered a "bonus disc".  I don't even begrudge the excessive DVNR, etc.  It's the non-anamorphic format that makes it a "horrible" release.   In 2006, the choice between anamorphic and non-anamorphic is akin to simply checking a box in the encoder software.  The fact that it isn't anamorphic was clearly to intentionally lower the quality.  With no extra effort whatsoever, Lucas could have improved the video quality dramatically just by filling in the check box as was the case for virtually every other film release of that time.  It is unfathomable that a producer would intentionally lower the quality of a release so dramatically, to sub-baseline levels, and that's primarily for me what makes the GOUT rise(!) to the level of "horrible release".

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

It's the non-anamorphic format that makes it a "horrible" release.   In 2006, the choice between anamorphic and non-anamorphic is akin to simply checking a box in the encoder software.  The fact that it isn't anamorphic was clearly to intentionally lower the quality.  With no extra effort whatsoever, Lucas could have improved the video quality dramatically just by filling in the check box as was the case for virtually every other film release of that time.

The master used was D-1, no? If so, then making an anamorphic release would require upscaling.

Given the overall quality of the GOUT release, I'm not confident that LFL would have upscaled it well at all.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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TV's Frink said:

Forty. Five. Pages.

smh

45 pages of official stuff.

真実

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Maxim, let me try to clarify.  People consider the GOUT a "horrible RELEASE".  A "release" is a particular packaging of a movie that is officially produced and sold.  Releases are by their very definition embedded in the context of their release date.  Given the release date of the GOUT, "horrible" is an apt description because it doesn't meet baseline standards of releases at that time.  You're right it isn't a "horrible movie" or "horrible video quality", but it is a "horrible release".  That phrase requires no additional clarification of context.

A fan-edit is a completely different sort of "release" and would understandably not be held to the same standards.

I don't necessarily begrudge Lucasfilm using the laserdisc master for what he considered a "bonus disc".  I don't even begrudge the excessive DVNR, etc.  It's the non-anamorphic format that makes it a "horrible" release.   In 2006, the choice between anamorphic and non-anamorphic is akin to simply checking a box in the encoder software.  The fact that it isn't anamorphic was clearly to intentionally lower the quality.  With no extra effort whatsoever, Lucas could have improved the video quality dramatically just by filling in the check box as was the case for virtually every other film release of that time.  It is unfathomable that a producer would intentionally lower the quality of a release so dramatically, to sub-baseline levels, and that's primarily for me what makes the GOUT rise(!) to the level of "horrible release".

I didn't reply to anyone who said it was a "horrible release", I replied to someone who said:

"Regardless of how horrendous the quality was"

I also replied to someone who said it was "unwatchable".

The D1 masters were 4:3 letterboxed, 720x486 (or 720x480, depending on the version of D1 tape used) the same as the GOUT that came from them. To make it 16:9 anamorphic you have to increase the vertical resolution of the picture content (and crop the excess letterboxing so that picture + letterboxing still adds up to 480 pixels). In other words, they would have had to "upscale" it in order to make it 16:9 anamorphic, which isn't typically done when authoring retail DVDs.

Normally with retail DVDs of feature films, the master is much higher resolution than DVD (rather than being the same resolution like D1 tape), so making a 16:9 anamorphic DVD is no problem.

This is one way that will give you 16:9 anamorphic for the GOUT:

crop(0, 104, -0, -104)
Lanczos4Resize(720,366)
AddBorders(0,57,0,57)

That will make this ...

... become this:

Then set a PAR of 40/33 when you encode it and your DVD player will display it like this ...

... instead of like this:

And that is the same result as if Lucasfilm had done it, except for an extra generation of loss (which can be ~imperceptible if done right) due to re-encoding it; or you could encode with a lossless codec if you don't mind a much larger file size and it no longer being in DVD format.

So no, it is not just a matter of checking a box; the raw image has to be prepared properly first, and in the case of the D1 master, this preparation involves "upscaling" the vertical resolution of the picture content and cropping some of the letterboxing (or cropping all of the letterboxing and adding new letterboxing, like my AVS script above would do).

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Ah - I didn't know that the master was already compressed to letterbox dimensions.  I retract some of what I stated.

Question - would a properly upscaled master released anamorphically exhibit better playback on modern DVD players?  Just curious.

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Question - would a properly upscaled master released anamorphically exhibit better playback on modern DVD players?  Just curious.

It isn't the DVD player that matters, i.e., they will all playback either 4:3 or 16:9 DVDs without issue. It is the TV that matters. For a 4:3 TV, 16:9 DVDs are of no benefit whatsoever (nor do they do any harm). They will display exactly like a 4:3 DVD, with the exception being that only part of the letterboxing will be hard-coded into the video stream, while the remaining letterboxing will be generated by the DVD player (as opposed to all of the letterboxing being hard-coded into the video stream on a 4:3 DVD).

If you have a 16:9 TV, then a 16:9 DVD will fill the screen properly as-is, and you will get whatever benefits come from increased vertical resolution in the picture area (which is no benefit at all in the case of converting the GOUT or its masters to 16:9, because the increased vertical resolution in the picture area would just be artificial upscaling). The only possible benefit in terms of picture quality would be if you used a resizing filter during the re-encode that you know gives better resizing results than the results of your DVD player's and/or TV's zoom function.

The main benefit is convenience however, i.e., as I said, it will fill the screen properly as-is, like so:

While a 4:3 DVD will get "windowboxed" as-is, like so:

And you have to zoom in to get it to fill the screen properly.

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imperialscum said:

TV's Frink said:

Forty. Five. Pages.

smh

45 pages of official stuff.

 This thread is officially a horrible quality release.

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TV's Frink said:

imperialscum said:

TV's Frink said:

Forty. Five. Pages.

smh

45 pages of official stuff.

 This thread is officially a horrible quality release.

 The first ten pages or so were exciting

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Fortune and glory, kid.  Fortune and glory...

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Gogogadget said:

Really don't see how anyone can defend the GOUT.

It's the best officially released source we have yes, but it's still unwatchable.

"Unwatchable"? More hyperbole. "Unwatchable" is a good word for those VCD encodes of theater bootlegs shot with a low-end camcorder that were circulating on the internet in the late '90s and early '00s. It is funny that this site thrived for years on copies of the OUT that were inferior to the "unwatchable" GOUT. I guess no one was actually watching their LDs or LD-to-DVD transfers back then, you know, because if the GOUT is "unwatchable", the LDs were "extra unwatchable" and the LD-to-DVD transfers were "extra, extra unwatchable".

Maybe you should try a TV for which 4:3 DVDs were intended.

I had the original Star Wars on VHS in the 90s as a young kid, I had a small portable TV in my bedroom and it was perfect, at least so I really thought.

The GOUT was released well after everyone already adopted 16:9 TVs, hell, the other disc in the set was Anamorphic 16:9 and this was at a time when HDTVs were becoming more of a household item and less home-theatre enthusiast too.

If you seriously think the GOUT was acceptable in the mid 00s, then I don't really know what to tell you, because it was shit then and it's worse now.