Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 214

For a good portion of the film, I was being a tad critical that I was worried my experience was being a tad tainted. Though I was beyond happy when I could feel that sensation of sitting in front of my tv re-watching the first thre VHS tapes over and over again with unquestionable childlike thrill when Finn and Han went looking for Rey. Granted there are similarities between Force Awakens and A New Hope, I’m glad I was still able to have that moment where I could say “yes, this feels like a Star Wars movie to me”.

Though I’ll emit walking back to my car with my friend, and him starting to stand on his soap box to announce his theories was a tad annoying. I didn’t even get out of the parking lot without having to deal with conspiracies. Why couldn’t I just have that happen when I got on my computer later that night?

Nonetheless, I enjoyed myself, and intend to see it a few more times before it’s out of theaters.

StardustCamellia said:

The fact that you could see SKB’s shot from Takodana bugs me. It shouldn’t, Because Science Fantasy, but it does. It bugs me in a fundamentally wrong way, and is among my chief complaints about the movie. Sound in space I can dismiss, it’s an ‘audible sharpness’ thing. But the Starkiller beam left my brain hurting, to the point where I thought, initially, that Takodana and Hosnian Prime were in the same star system.

File under “how do magnets work?”. Thanks for sharing this image. Very interesting…

Thank the maker someone else feels the same as I do. It is indeed my CHIEF complaint about the movie. Everyone else is complaining about stuff that CAN be explained away, while this is the one thing that cannot. Nearly a week after I saw the movie it’s still bothering me above all else, to the point where I can’t decide if I really like the movie or not. I pray that a talented editor will be able to chop the scene up in a way that makes it sensibly viewable.

FanFiltration said:

😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆

I suspect that “The Force Awakens” will follow the same path as “The Phantom Menace.”

When TPM opened, fans were raving, gushing, ranting about it. Fans were describing it as “awesome,” “amazing,” “sensational.” Some even saying, “Best movie EVER!” Fans everywhere were saying, “I loved it!”

Soon enough, though, the euphoria started to wear off and the fan base started to sober up. Hardened longtime fans had already taken to the Internet to point out the ridiculous nature of TPM’s plot elements: Jar Jar, 8-year-olds accidentally saving the day, midichlorians, the “convenient” coincidences, etc. These early bashers were initially met with ridicule and contempt. Supporters of the movie employed all sorts of logic fallacy to defend the movie: “Obviously you’re WRONG because the movie is making so much money!” When critics pointed out all the silliness, supporters were quick with ridiculous ad hoc reasoning to “explain” weaknesses of the film.

It was all initially fueled by hunger and nostalgia of the fans for more Star Wars movies. Fueled by the hope that Star Wars wasn’t over, that the franchise had a new future. More movies, more merchandise, more excitement, more fun.

But finally the honeymoon ended and the fan base completely came to their senses. They realized TPM is simply an awful movie that largely wrecked the franchise.

And so, rinse and repeat. Here we are today, with an equally bad movie. As critics point out the laughably ridiculous flaws, defenders rush in with contrived ad hoc reasoning to “explain it all away,” and, even better, launch all sorts of ad hominem attacks against the critics.

It’s just movie! The Force made it happen! It’s science fantasy, not science fiction! It’s Star Wars! Blah, blah, blah.

Sigh

TavorX said:

Finally, all these years later, when we see TFA, I couldn’t believe it. He was laughing, tearing up, and genuinely looked like he was having a blast! So I dunno man, for as long as I’ve known my dad, he never bought into that hype of the prequels. Did he recognize the flaws of TFA? Sure. But overall, we were geeking out over the film of how fun it was!

Emphasis added. I suspect your father is in his 40s. That’s when us older guys really start getting overwhelmed by the awareness of our own mortality. Our children are now adults. The fun times of our own childhoods are long gone. Old age is fast approaching us. When we were young, two years seemed like an eternity. Now, we remind ourselves, “I really need to get a new battery for my watch,” and then suddenly realize, “Holy crap! My watch went dead two years ago!”

Your father was suffering the cruel tugs of nostalgia. Nothing more. And that’s what so terribly gratuitous about this movie: It’s nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia.

ZkinandBonez said:

Also, no one, or at least very few people, here on the forum have hailed it as the “best movie ever!” People seem to either say “it had flaws, but I really liked it,” or “it had flaws, therefore I really don’t like it.”

That’s a good point.

I strongly suspect that when the euphoria is over, the fans here and elsewhere will finally come to realize that its “flaws” were actually really, really silly failings. Fans will be able to see the forest for the trees and it will dawn on them – slowly, perhaps – just how bad this movie is.

Smoking Lizard said:

I suspect that “The Force Awakens” will follow the same path as “The Phantom Menace.”

When TPM opened, fans were raving, gushing, ranting about it. Fans were describing it as “awesome,” “amazing,” “sensational.” Some even saying, “Best movie EVER!” Fans everywhere were saying, “I loved it!”

Soon enough, though, the euphoria started to wear off and the fan base started to sober up. Hardened longtime fans had already taken to the Internet to point out the ridiculous nature of TPM’s plot elements: Jar Jar, 8-year-olds accidentally saving the day, midichlorians, the “convenient” coincidences, etc. These early bashers were initially met with ridicule and contempt. Supporters of the movie employed all sorts of logic fallacy to defend the movie: “Obviously you’re WRONG because the movie is making so much money!” When critics pointed out all the silliness, supporters were quick with ridiculous ad hoc reasoning to “explain” weaknesses of the film.

It was all initially fueled by hunger and nostalgia of the fans for more Star Wars movies. Fueled by the hope that Star Wars wasn’t over, that the franchise had a new future. More movies, more merchandise, more excitement, more fun.

But finally the honeymoon ended and the fan base completely came to their senses. They realized TPM is simply an awful movie that largely wrecked the franchise.

And so, rinse and repeat. Here we are today, with an equally bad movie. As critics point out the laughably ridiculous flaws, defenders rush in with contrived ad hoc reasoning to “explain it all away,” and, even better, launch all sorts of ad hominem attacks against the critics.

It’s just movie! The Force made it happen! It’s science fantasy, not science fiction! It’s Star Wars! Blah, blah, blah.

Sigh

You still haven’t seen the film, right? So I can keep ignoring you? This film was absolutely nothing like TPM. Many, MANY of us were critical walking out of TPM. The people you see gushing in the videos after the premiere were selected because of their reactions. And I’ll bet many of them (the adults at least, such as Kevin Smith) still love the prequels today.

I just love the fact that someone who has not seen the movie and therefore cannot have his own opinion on the movie is so dedicated to invalidating other people’s opinions. Critique something you haven’t seen all you want, but quit telling people they don’t know how they feel.

Looks like the second IMAX poster was finally released. There was so much time between them that I honestly forgot this was even going to be a thing.

towne32 said:

You still haven’t seen the film, right? So I can keep ignoring you? This film was absolutely nothing like TPM. Many, MANY of us were critical walking out of TPM. The people you see gushing in the videos after the premiere were selected because of their reactions. And I’ll bet many of them (the adults at least, such as Kevin Smith) still love the prequels today.

Understand, I am not criticizing the acting, the direction, the cinematography, the special effects, the editing, the audio mix, or the score.

I’m criticizing the story. One does not need to see a movie to know and comprehend its story.

The people were selected because of their reactions? Well, sure. That, however, does not belie that TPM made $1.45 billion worldwide in 2015 dollars, more than “Frozen” did in 2013, which was and is a major phenomenon. Clearly people loved it. At the time.

I suspect you may be looking back and judging TPM with a set of “after-the-fact” eyeglasses.

Smoking Lizard said:

towne32 said:

You still haven’t seen the film, right? So I can keep ignoring you? This film was absolutely nothing like TPM. Many, MANY of us were critical walking out of TPM. The people you see gushing in the videos after the premiere were selected because of their reactions. And I’ll bet many of them (the adults at least, such as Kevin Smith) still love the prequels today.

Understand, I am not criticizing the acting, the direction, the cinematography, the special effects, the editing, the audio mix, or the score.

I’m criticizing the story. One does not need to see a movie to know and comprehend its story.

All of these things together make the film what it is. The presentation of the story was nothing like ANH. Many of us wish something besides Starkiller was done. But I had other, more important, plot points in my mind while all that was going down in the film.

Your criticism popped up very early on when you read a bullet point list of steps that are similar to ANH. Yes, when it’s stated like that it sounds awful. But, aside from Starkiller, they felt like polite nods to 1977 while a new story was being told.

I suspect you may be looking back and judging TPM with a set of “after-the-fact” eyeglasses.

Of course? This is the case for every movie I’ve ever seen, though. TPM was disappointing at the time, but there were definitely things I enjoyed about it. If I were a bit younger, perhaps it would have been a ‘classic’ to me and my opinion would degenerate much more over time. In the years to come, I would say I became more critical of everything about the PT. At this point, I can watch them and see the few things that they did really well, and shake my head that it doesn’t matter when the end result is so bad.

Whereas TPM felt like a let down that ‘oh well, at least it has a few key moments that worked’. This felt like one of the first action adventure films in recent years with actual heart to it, with some definite flaws that could be tightened up. It will probably adjust in people’s rankings (most likely, from ranking right above Jedi to right under), but I suspect that its legacy will not be that it was a major misstep, but rather a return to glory that was just a bit too safe. The long term opinion is going to depend somewhat on what the next two films do, though.

towne32 said:

All of these things together make the film what it is.

Yes. I understand. But to me the story is the foundation of the movie. A house with a bad foundation cannot stand. It’s a bad house. It does not matter what colors you paint the walls, how thick the carpet is, or how fancy the kitchen appliances are – it’s a bad house.

A movie with a bad story is the same. Bad.

Your criticism popped up very early on when you read a bullet point list of steps that are similar to ANH. Yes, when it’s stated like that it sounds awful. But, aside from Starkiller, they felt like polite nods to 1977 while a new story was being told.

No, actually I wrote that bullet point list. And it still holds up. I could add to it all the silly, contrived conveniences in the film, too, which I didn’t bother to do. If you enumerate the very long list of silly conveniences that occur in the story and then evaluate them with an entirely open mind (which is entirely vital), I don’t see how any reasonably intelligent person can’t arrive at the conclusion, “OK, yeah. This is pretty stupid.”

And forget that these conveniences have been explained. That’s another logic trap that people keep falling into. Just because a movie “explains” something doesn’t mean the explanation makes sense or is, you know, good. Any amateur writer can slap together an “explanation.”

Whereas TPM felt like a let down that ‘oh well, at least it has a few key moments that worked’. This felt like one of the first action adventure films in recent years with actual heart to it, with some definite flaws that could be tightened up. It will probably adjust in people’s rankings (most likely, from ranking right above Jedi to right under), but I suspect that its legacy will not be that it was a major misstep, but rather a return to glory that was just a bit too safe. The long term opinion is going to depend somewhat on what the next two films do, though.

Time will tell. I’m convinced that as more open discussion comes out, people’s attitudes will change. We have to get through all the euphoria, zealotry, and logic fallacy defenses first, though.

Story and plot are two different things. And anyway, if the plot of TFA is just the same as ANH (which it isn’t) then it’s not a bad plot at all.

Bottom line though, if you haven’t seen the film, criticizing the options of those who have is simply ridiculous. I have no time for your bullshit. Move along.

DominicCobb said:

Story and plot are two different things. And anyway, if the plot of TFA is just the same as ANH (which it isn’t) then it’s not a bad plot at all.

No disrespect, but I really don’t think you understand this concept.

Bottom line though, if you haven’t seen the film, criticizing the options of those who have is simply ridiculous. I have no time for your bullshit. Move along.

Fair enough. It’s a discussion board. About movies. Not politics, philosophy, social justice, or religion.

It’s entertainment. For fun…you know? But certainly, you’re not required to contribute to the discussion if you don’t want to.

Smoking Lizard said:

DominicCobb said:

Story and plot are two different things. And anyway, if the plot of TFA is just the same as ANH (which it isn’t) then it’s not a bad plot at all.

No disrespect, but I really don’t think you understand this concept.

And you do? Clearly not if you think they’re the same.

Bottom line though, if you haven’t seen the film, criticizing the options of those who have is simply ridiculous. I have no time for your bullshit. Move along.

Fair enough. It’s a discussion board. About movies. Not politics, philosophy, social justice, or religion.

It’s entertainment. For fun…you know? But certainly, you’re not required to contribute to the discussion if you don’t want to.

Exactly my point! You can know a candidate’s worth just by reading a list of their policies on paper. You don’t have to meet them. Whether or not they’re fun in person doesn’t matter. But a movie is all about entertainment, fun… you know? You cannot POSSIBLY know how much fun a movie is without seeing it.

DominicCobb said:

Exactly my point! You can know a candidate’s worth just by reading a list of their policies on paper. You don’t have to meet them. Whether or not they’re fun in person doesn’t matter. But a movie is all about entertainment, fun… you know? You cannot POSSIBLY know how much fun a movie is without seeing it.

I suppose it all boils down to how one judges a movie…what makes a movie good or bad. To me, a movie is made or broken by its story, as I mentioned above. If the story is bad, in my mind, the movie is bad – no matter what else the filmmaker does. That’s just me, of course. I remember once telling someone that I thought Michael Bay’s Transformer movies were bad because I felt the stories were silly. He told me that story didn’t matter to him; to him it was all about “robot carnage.”

To each his own, I suppose.