Religion — Page 68

moviefreakedmind said:

RicOlie_2 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Sure, but I was thinking of Hitler himself, who was raised Catholic. I don’t really consider the individual soldiers in the German Army; I’m sure most of them weren’t aware of what they were fighting for. As for most of Hitler’s SS thugs, I don’t know what their religious identities were. The problem I have with your definition of Christianity is that there are sects that elevate the Pope or Joseph Smith, for example, (I hope Ender can elaborate on his views) to the level of near-divinity. The Pope takes the title of “Holy Father”, which is only used in the Bible to refer to God himself.

Joseph Smith is certainly not elevated above humanity in Mormon teaching.

I was thinking that in the Mormon faith Joseph Smith played a role in the final judgement. Apparently it was Brigham Young, his successor and respected Mormon leader, who stated that Joseph Smith was the one who essentially chose who gets to heaven. How much more elevated can you get? Sadly, the LDS website has no clear answers and I honestly don’t have the patience to dig much deeper. Hopefully Ender can shed light on his position.

Brigham Young’s statement is as follows:

“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.”

It is intended to be understood in the same light as Jesus Christ’s own words in Matthew 19:

“27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Note some key phrases. First, Jesus Christ has delegated his authority to judge to his chosen servants, and clearly the original apostles are the primes judges next to Jesus Christ himself. Next, note that Brigham Young specifically stated that Joseph Smith’s judgement will apply to people of this dispensation. We Mormons believe that God has revealed himself multiple times, dispensing knowledge to mankind (a dispensation), and that there has been a falling away each time, and that Joseph Smith is the head of the last dispensation before Jesus Christ comes again. In that position, we believe he too has delegated authority, beneath the original apostles and beneath Jesus Christ, but still relevant to those who have lived in this dispensation.

Make sense?

Lord Haseo said:

darth_ender said:
You’ve clearly assumed it, but whatever, I’m too busy to find examples right now, so let’s just assume you really are giving religious people, myself included, fair consideration as intelligent human beings.

Which is what you should have been assuming this whole time. Funny thing is you’re the only one who seems to notice this intolerance you’re speaking of.

No, I’m not, but I’m also hitting home a point. Do I really care if you’re a bigot? No, not really. You just are. That doesn’t even make you a terrible person. We’re all bigoted in some ways. But you have no shame in your bigotry because you feel you are justified. That’s how many people felt about their anti-homosexuality bigotry until recently. It was just acceptable. Some bigotry is more socially acceptable than others in certain circles, and that of religions, particularly Christianity, is very acceptable among atheists and agnostics these days.

I am not referring to your ignorant generalizations of the Bible, I am referring to the fact that you literally said, “I hate Christianity.”

There are no generalizations. There is good stuff and there is bad stuff. For me the bad outweighs the good because there are other works in which I can learn the same lessons that The Bible teaches. Also “I hate Christianity” =/= “I hate Christians” but then again you already know that.

But remember how I deliberately made a point that hating black culture is racist? If saying, “I hate black culture” = “I’m a bigot against blacks,” then “I hate Christianity” = “I’m a bigot against Christians,” even if it doesn’t mean “I hate Christians.”

I don’t have time for a youtube video. I will simply say that if it was racist of me to say I hate black culture, it is equally hateful of you to hate religion. That was why I used my dramatic example. I have little time to post here, so I wanted to get some attention and draw the parallel that if you hate the chosen culture of a people, you in many ways are hating on the people themselves. Sorry youtube video, and sorry Lord Haseo.

It’s just someone saying “bullshit” but I’m glad I didn’t waste the time to find an informative video…not that it would have helped any.

Then I’m glad I didn’t waste my time watching it.

Also that’s a very poor example you’re using as the line between saying “I hate Black Culture” vs saying “I hate Black people” is very minuscule while hating Religion and being okay with Religious people are completely separate.

Please enlighten me how it’s different. It affects your judgment of me. It affects your judgment of many religious folks. You may be “okay” with them, but you perceive them as unscientific, bigoted, and promoters of hate. Such is not always the case. You allow your judgment to be tainted by your hatred.

Boy, you sure know a lot about me for having interacted with me so little and really not understanding my posting history. Nice assumptions.

You have been more or less the same thing but okay buddy.

I’ve just quoted what you said and made points about it. I didn’t extrapolate any further than that.

Not even sure why you bring this up, honestly. I am calling your hatred of Christianity bigotry. Why did you even say this?

“Hate the sin, love the sinner”

That’s why I brought it up

Which has been called here justification for bigotry.

But here I want to reassure you that I didn’t call you a bigot for hating the Bible. I am calling you a bigot for literally stating, “I hate Christianity.”

Christians are a group (which happen to fall under that umbrella of Christianity, which you hate).

You know what the funny thing about this is? This all started because I said I hate the Bible. I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general. Just some food for thought. Furthermore I believe the only person to outright say “I hate Christianity” was Darth Lucas and he clarified that he meant that he hated the Bible and not those who read it. So basically you’re bitching about absolutely nothing.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/960187

Lord Haseo said:

There’s actually a study that shows that Atheists tend to know more about what’s in Religious texts (primarily the Bible) than actual believers. As someone who used to be a “militant Atheist” a few years back I learned many things about the Bible to fuel my hatred of it and to know what I was talking about when I debated people.

Bravo. I’m not one of those. But that is interesting that you used to be a “militant Atheist.” Very revealing.

Citation please? Just because I call it like I see it doesn’t mean I’m being overly sensitive. I have far harder discussions in real life with atheists. Why would I be too sensitive to handle featherweight arguments on an Internet board with people I will never meet in real life?

Pick any of the posts you’ve made accusing people of being bigots because they don’t like your religion. Also you bring up a good question but I have no idea why you’re crying so much to people you will never interact with face to face.

Am I crying? I thought I was trying to have a (half–mine of course) intelligent discussion with you. And you continue to use much stronger language, indicating a much stronger emotional response and greater sensitivity to what I’ve said.

No, I think any firmly held belief can do that. Including atheism.

See: Lord Haseo 😉

WRONG ATHEIST

I know it deepy affects your worldview, but you are a bigot. DENIAL.

darthrush said:

RicOlie_2 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Sure, but I was thinking of Hitler himself, who was raised Catholic. I don’t really consider the individual soldiers in the German Army; I’m sure most of them weren’t aware of what they were fighting for. As for most of Hitler’s SS thugs, I don’t know what their religious identities were. The problem I have with your definition of Christianity is that there are sects that elevate the Pope or Joseph Smith, for example, (I hope Ender can elaborate on his views) to the level of near-divinity. The Pope takes the title of “Holy Father”, which is only used in the Bible to refer to God himself.

Joseph Smith is certainly not elevated above humanity in Mormon teaching.

“Praise to the mannnnnn who communed with Jehova…” ( sang that many times as a child)

He is quoted as saying he even elevated himself above others. He said not even Jesus could match the work he had done (restoring the church).

Any firsthand citation on this one? Sounds like a secondhand quote from a reliable apostate. Can you point this out in something not called The Godmakers or some equally disreputable source?

Mormons most certainly elevate him, and I would know after 15 years from birth in the church. Active family with father who served as bishop and stake president. All my siblings have gone on missions. Religion breaks apart families. My parents will die thinking they failed me. They’ll die believing that them and my sisters will live on forever but that I’ll be in hell. It’s a sick and despressing reality.

Wow! 15 whole years! I’m 34, born in my church, and now have a fully developed frontal lobe. You will certainly find sources who can stake greater claims to authority, but you sir are not an authority on Mormonism at such a young age having left it. I bet I’ve read more anti-Mormon literature than you, and here I stand (actually I’m sitting on my couch, but still…), firm in my faith.

That’s the one reason I can say I hate religion. It has been the cause of a lot of sadness and pain for me. No matter how far I go in school, how much I help people or how good of a person I try to be each and every day, because I don’t believe Joseph Smith restored the church I will always be seen as the most ultimate failure in my families eyes. Religion cut me deep and I don’t forgive it for doing so.

Well, that’s a shame, because Mormonism promotes a greater moral of forgiveness. I thought atheists had the moral high ground in this discussion.

That said, I can understand how you feel hurt by your departure from the Church and how it’s affected your relationship with your family. You haven’t shared much, but I’m curious how cruel your family has been to you. I suspect they’re actually very accepting and loving towards you, even if you have strayed in their eyes. They may be disappointed, but I doubt you’ve been shunned in any way. If you have, then the fault is the people, not the religion.

darth_ender said:

darthrush said:

Mormons most certainly elevate him, and I would know after 15 years from birth in the church. Active family with father who served as bishop and stake president. All my siblings have gone on missions. Religion breaks apart families. My parents will die thinking they failed me. They’ll die believing that them and my sisters will live on forever but that I’ll be in hell. It’s a sick and despressing reality.

I’m older than you so actually I’m right.

WYSHS

No, I’m just pointing out his lack of authority on the issue. If anything, I have more authority from that standpoint, but I also stated that he could cite more authority.

Jeebus said:

darth_ender said:

Jeebus said:

darth_ender said:

Let me ask you an honest pair of questions. Yes, of course there will be follow-up, though it may be several days before I can spare a few minutes to return to this. Here they are:

Has religion contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Evil things are done in the name of religion, but that does not make them speak for all religion. Nor do all religious or religious people bear the sins of those who have committed evil in their name.

Also, just because crimes are committed by people who are religious does not mean you can ascribe their crime to being religious.

Actually I can, it’s pretty easy to do when terrorists are going around screaming “Allahu akbar” and named their organization the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. Perhaps I misinterpret your point, though.

You do, but the fault is mine, actually, as I did not phrase correctly. Yes, some kill in the name of religion. Yet some religious people kill for other reasons. What I should have said is that you cannot ascribe all crimes committed by religious people to their being religious.

So ultimately, while evil has contributed evil to this world, I caution you not to paint all of religion as evil based on what some have done with it.

Has atheism contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.

Not that I know of, but I assume you’re gonna refer to the Communist regime of Stalin. As far as I know, the actions of Stalin were not committed in the name of atheism, he did it because he wanted power. Stripping people’s religion from them was an effective demoralization tactic, so that’s what he did. And it’s not like communist Russia was a godless society, their god was the state. Bear in mind, I don’t know a whole lot about communist Russia.

Now there are points where I would bring up Communist regimes like the USSR, but I wasn’t planning on doing so yet. Since you brought it up, however, let’s go ahead and address it.

First, it’s always easiest to state that the Soviet Union exercised a religion wherein the state was the object of worship. Really that would be more accurate of Fascism/Nazism, whereas there was more of a personality cult surrounding Lenin and Stalin, and there was an ideology that demanded exclusive devotion. One could not be a member of any political party except the Communist Party, and anything else was seen as disloyal. But such excuses do not pardon the fact that this was a nation that actively fought against belief in God or other organized “traditional” religion. There were no rites, holy books, or prayers. What existed was propaganda, suppression of dissension, and cover-ups of the crimes of the leaders and the Union as a whole. But the nation was, for all intents and purposes, actively atheist.

Which leads to my second point: any ideology can be used for evil. How many atheists have called for the destruction of religion. Look at the likes of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, and others. They cling not only to an ideology, but in fact are so firm in their conviction, so aggressive in their stance, so negative in their rhetoric, so once-sided in their arguments that…one could almost consider them a religion! Sure, they are not as severe as the USSR, but really the same ideological purity exists on a lighter level there. But how tolerant are they of other viewpoints? Do you think they put up with atheist fortune tellers? Atheist Jains, Buddhists, or Confucianists?

I disagree, I’ve never seen an atheist lobbying about the evils of Buddhism. They focus on Islam and Christianity. Islam because it inspires terrorism, and contributes to the oppression of women and gays. Christianity because of the few Christian politicians who try to incorporate their religion into politics. Tennessee tried to get the Bible to be the official state book, but luckily the governor vetoed it. That’s the kind of thing that atheists fight against.

And that’s fine. It’s their right to fight it, and there’s nothing wrong with it. But there are so many who actively oppose religion altogether. I named some names. Remember:

Religion championed the notion enshrined in the American Declaration of Independence that " all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

Abe Lincoln promised God that if He would change the tide of the Civil War, Lincoln would end slavery.

William Wilberforce was converted to Christianity, and then committed his life to ending slavery in the British Empire.

Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. fought for equality among the races.

54% of Christians are supportive of homosexuality in society, as are 74% among other faiths. Interestingly, 17% of non-religious folks are not supportive. Now obviously there is a discrepancy in your favor, but consider that religious folks are not wholly against it, while atheists are not wholly for it.

Most Americans preach tolerance and love. Most Americans are religious. Most progressive ideals throughout our nation’s history were promoted by religious believers.

Religious people are more generous in their donations.

Religious people are happier.

Actively involved religious people are less likely to be involved in drugs or crime.

But to return to my original reason for asking these questions, let’s recap:

Yes, there is evil committed because of religion.

However, as atheism is not an ideology (supposedly), there cannot be any evil because of it.

But then it begs the questions:

What good has religion contributed to the world?

Though I think it’s misguided, it gives people emotional comfort.

It’s done far more than that. See above.

And if atheism is not an ideology and cannot contribute evil, then how can atheism contribute any good?

It can’t, and it doesn’t have to.

Then why advocate for it? Why condemn religion? Much good has come into this world from it. Even in a Utopian Star Trek future where humanity leaves religion behind, only the most ignorant would regard religion as worthless. It has contributed immensely to the benefit of mankind, and a few people who’ve been burned feel some need to pick a few points of disagreement and tear down the whole idea.

More likely in Utah. Believe it or not, I have many loved ones who are Mormon as well! And I also have a loved one who has left the faith, yet has remained very loved by his family.

darth_ender said:

Jeebus said:

darth_ender said:

Jeebus said:

darth_ender said:

Let me ask you an honest pair of questions. Yes, of course there will be follow-up, though it may be several days before I can spare a few minutes to return to this. Here they are:

Has religion contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Evil things are done in the name of religion, but that does not make them speak for all religion. Nor do all religious or religious people bear the sins of those who have committed evil in their name.

Also, just because crimes are committed by people who are religious does not mean you can ascribe their crime to being religious.

Actually I can, it’s pretty easy to do when terrorists are going around screaming “Allahu akbar” and named their organization the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. Perhaps I misinterpret your point, though.

You do, but the fault is mine, actually, as I did not phrase correctly. Yes, some kill in the name of religion. Yet some religious people kill for other reasons. What I should have said is that you cannot ascribe all crimes committed by religious people to their being religious.

I don’t think I have. If anything I said was construed in that way, then know that I do not think that. I don’t think someone committing an unrelated crime who happens to be religious should have their religion blamed for the crime. Maybe the Hitler thing is what you’re referring to, but I admitted I was wrong as much as my ego could allow.

So ultimately, while evil has contributed evil to this world, I caution you not to paint all of religion as evil based on what some have done with it.

Has atheism contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.

Not that I know of, but I assume you’re gonna refer to the Communist regime of Stalin. As far as I know, the actions of Stalin were not committed in the name of atheism, he did it because he wanted power. Stripping people’s religion from them was an effective demoralization tactic, so that’s what he did. And it’s not like communist Russia was a godless society, their god was the state. Bear in mind, I don’t know a whole lot about communist Russia.

Now there are points where I would bring up Communist regimes like the USSR, but I wasn’t planning on doing so yet. Since you brought it up, however, let’s go ahead and address it.

First, it’s always easiest to state that the Soviet Union exercised a religion wherein the state was the object of worship. Really that would be more accurate of Fascism/Nazism, whereas there was more of a personality cult surrounding Lenin and Stalin, and there was an ideology that demanded exclusive devotion. One could not be a member of any political party except the Communist Party, and anything else was seen as disloyal. But such excuses do not pardon the fact that this was a nation that actively fought against belief in God or other organized “traditional” religion. There were no rites, holy books, or prayers. What existed was propaganda, suppression of dissension, and cover-ups of the crimes of the leaders and the Union as a whole. But the nation was, for all intents and purposes, actively atheist.

Which leads to my second point: any ideology can be used for evil. How many atheists have called for the destruction of religion. Look at the likes of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, and others. They cling not only to an ideology, but in fact are so firm in their conviction, so aggressive in their stance, so negative in their rhetoric, so once-sided in their arguments that…one could almost consider them a religion! Sure, they are not as severe as the USSR, but really the same ideological purity exists on a lighter level there. But how tolerant are they of other viewpoints? Do you think they put up with atheist fortune tellers? Atheist Jains, Buddhists, or Confucianists?

I disagree, I’ve never seen an atheist lobbying about the evils of Buddhism. They focus on Islam and Christianity. Islam because it inspires terrorism, and contributes to the oppression of women and gays. Christianity because of the few Christian politicians who try to incorporate their religion into politics. Tennessee tried to get the Bible to be the official state book, but luckily the governor vetoed it. That’s the kind of thing that atheists fight against.

And that’s fine. It’s their right to fight it, and there’s nothing wrong with it. But there are so many who actively oppose religion altogether. I named some names. Remember:

Religion championed the notion enshrined in the American Declaration of Independence that " all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

Abe Lincoln promised God that if He would change the tide of the Civil War, Lincoln would end slavery.

William Wilberforce was converted to Christianity, and then committed his life to ending slavery in the British Empire.

Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. fought for equality among the races.

Much like I don’t think a religious person’s crimes should be blamed on their religion, I don’t think good deeds should be attributed to religion. None of these are people doing things because of their religion, at least it doesn’t appear that way with what you presented.

54% of Christians are supportive of homosexuality in society, as are 74% among other faiths. Interestingly, 17% of non-religious folks are not supportive. Now obviously there is a discrepancy in your favor, but consider that religious folks are not wholly against it, while atheists are not wholly for it.

Most Americans preach tolerance and love. Most Americans are religious.

Most progressive ideals throughout our nation’s history were promoted by religious believers.

As were most pro-slavery and anti-gay ideals. That’s how being the majority works.

Religious people are more generous in their donations.

You had me running around looking at studies for a while with this one. People make it so hard to find the actual source study, but it’s so easy to find articles talking about the study. From what I could gather, 73% of American giving goes to congregations and religiously identified organizations. They’re donating to their own churches and to religious organizations, which I don’t think is the same as donating to a cancer research fund or whatever.

Religious people are happier.

Good for them, I guess.

Actively involved religious people are less likely to be involved in drugs or crime.

After running around for almost an hour trying to find information about donations, I’m just gonna ask you for a citation.

But to return to my original reason for asking these questions, let’s recap:

Yes, there is evil committed because of religion.

However, as atheism is not an ideology (supposedly), there cannot be any evil because of it.

But then it begs the questions:

What good has religion contributed to the world?

Though I think it’s misguided, it gives people emotional comfort.

It’s done far more than that. See above.

And if atheism is not an ideology and cannot contribute evil, then how can atheism contribute any good?

It can’t, and it doesn’t have to.

Then why advocate for it?

Because I think it’s a far more accurate picture of the world around us than religion proposes.

Why condemn religion?

Because I think it’s an incorrect and unsubstantiated world view, and religion often inspires bigotry.

moviefreakedmind said:

I’ve been on a roller-coaster ride of religious confusion since I was 14.

Change “14” to “16”, and that’s my story as well.

Started off as a generic non-trinitarian Sabbatarian, (d)evolved into an Armstrongite who bought into the lies of the false prophet Herbert W. Armstrong, then had a serious crisis of faith which has left me a Christian agnostic (not a very good one, though) who wants to believe that there’s spiritual truth behind most religions.

I was on a roller-coaster ride of religious confusion for about three weeks in 1990.

darth_ender said:

Lord Haseo said:

darth_ender said:
You’ve clearly assumed it, but whatever, I’m too busy to find examples right now, so let’s just assume you really are giving religious people, myself included, fair consideration as intelligent human beings.

Which is what you should have been assuming this whole time. Funny thing is you’re the only one who seems to notice this intolerance you’re speaking of.

No, I’m not, but I’m also hitting home a point.

I don’t remember Dek or Warbler ever saying that they felt they were being treated as if they were intellectually inferior.

Also that’s a very poor example you’re using as the line between saying “I hate Black Culture” vs saying “I hate Black people” is very minuscule while hating Religion and being okay with Religious people are completely separate.

Please enlighten me how it’s different. It affects your judgment of me. It affects your judgment of many religious folks. You may be “okay” with them, but you perceive them as unscientific, bigoted, and promoters of hate. Such is not always the case. You allow your judgment to be tainted by your hatred.

It’s different because black culture effects the way black people act in a much simpler way then being a Christian. There are Christians who don’t believe in hating gays and making women subservient to men and there are Christians who don’t agree on the prerequisites for going to Hell etc. so it’s as clear cut as you’re making it out to be because there are many many types of Christians who practice their Religious beliefs in different ways.

Boy, you sure know a lot about me for having interacted with me so little and really not understanding my posting history. Nice assumptions.

You have been more or less the same thing but okay buddy.

I’ve just quoted what you said and made points about it. I didn’t extrapolate any further than that.

I think using key words in my posts and making statements about them even though you know damn well what I’m talking about counts as extrapolating.

Not even sure why you bring this up, honestly. I am calling your hatred of Christianity bigotry. Why did you even say this?

“Hate the sin, love the sinner”

That’s why I brought it up

Which has been called here justification for bigotry.

And like I said before there’s nothing wrong with being religious. I just don’t like the Religions themselves.
Meaning I don’t like The Bible, The Quran or any other types of holy texts. I may like certain teachings in them but that doesn’t do much in the long run.

But here I want to reassure you that I didn’t call you a bigot for hating the Bible. I am calling you a bigot for literally stating, “I hate Christianity.”

Christians are a group (which happen to fall under that umbrella of Christianity, which you hate).

You know what the funny thing about this is? This all started because I said I hate the Bible. I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general. Just some food for thought. Furthermore I believe the only person to outright say “I hate Christianity” was Darth Lucas and he clarified that he meant that he hated the Bible and not those who read it. So basically you’re bitching about absolutely nothing.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/960187

And what is the center of Christianity? I’ll give you a hint; it’s the thing I said I hated that started all of this.

Lord Haseo said:

There’s actually a study that shows that Atheists tend to know more about what’s in Religious texts (primarily the Bible) than actual believers. As someone who used to be a “militant Atheist” a few years back I learned many things about the Bible to fuel my hatred of it and to know what I was talking about when I debated people.

But that is interesting that you used to be a “militant Atheist.” Very revealing.

I hated religion far more than I do now but never did I ever say that I hated Christians. That’s even more telling

Citation please? Just because I call it like I see it doesn’t mean I’m being overly sensitive. I have far harder discussions in real life with atheists. Why would I be too sensitive to handle featherweight arguments on an Internet board with people I will never meet in real life?

Pick any of the posts you’ve made accusing people of being bigots because they don’t like your religion. Also you bring up a good question but I have no idea why you’re crying so much to people you will never interact with face to face.

Am I crying?

Probably

I thought I was trying to have a (half–mine of course) intelligent discussion with you. And you continue to use much stronger language, indicating a much stronger emotional response and greater sensitivity to what I’ve said.

At least my response wasn’t predicated on putting words in your mouth and trying to tell you what you said isn’t really what you said. Aside from you shooting baseless accusations it takes a special kind of arrogance to tell someone what they really said and feel.

No, I think any firmly held belief can do that. Including atheism.

See: Lord Haseo 😉

WRONG ATHEIST

I know it deepy affects your worldview, but you are a bigot. DENIAL.

In your skewed worldview? Yes. In the worldview most people know to be true? No.

moviefreakedmind said:

darth_ender said:

More likely in Utah. Believe it or not, I have many loved ones who are Mormon as well! And I also have a loved one who has left the faith, yet has remained very loved by his family.

Maybe, but it is a problem that seems more prevalent in Mormonism than nondenominational Christianity. I’ve noticed that Mormonism demands (what I would call) unhealthy devotion to the church. Particularly with how they send youth, often inexperienced, on missions in communities completely unknown to them.

What exactly is unhealthy devotion? Most statistics indicate higher levels of functionality among members of my church than others, and largely in part to our devotion to our ideals.

http://religionnews.com/2015/07/02/5-reasons-why-mormons-are-happier-says-researcher/

http://www.patheos.com/Mormon/Why-Mormons-Good-Neighbors-Larry-Wilson-07-02-2012

I mean, there is the point where people become fundamentalist and demand that others accept their religious ideals, leading to intolerance. But that is not the message of my faith, and most Mormons are better off than the average American.

I’ve served a mission and I have no regrets.

What would a healthier level of devotion be?

Dek Rollins said:

I’d like to give my general opinion on religion. I can be terrible at explaining things well, so bare with me 😛.
(Also note that I have minimal knowledge on religions other than Christianity, and that I will be referring to Christianity specifically.)

I am a Christian. I believe that Christ is true. That the man named Yeshua (we call him Jesus, the Christ), whose life is documented in the Bible, is the son of God. To me, these things are truth. Not merely thoughts that I exercise as possibilities. Not something I just tell people “I believe it is true.” The Lord God almighty reigns over the Heavens and the Earth. Christ Jesus is the truth, the way and the life.

Having stated that, I would like to continue in saying that I really kinda hate religion. Now, I realize that Christianity is a religion/religious belief by definition. That is not what I’m referring to. I’m talking about the religiousness that blinds people from the truth.

Religion is just rules. It’s not about truth, and love, and relationships. It’s about following the rules, and asking for forgiveness when you break one; and by doing so you buy your eternal life. As long as you follow God’s ten commandments throughout the rest of your life (and be forgiven when you fail), you’re good to go.

It’s also generally held under heavy organization. I’m specifically referencing the Catholic Church, though I’m sure there must be organized religion on a similar level somewhere.

It was the religious men who crucified Jesus on the cross.

I’m not really sure where else I’m goin’ with this, so I’ll just leave it at that.

I’ve noticed a lot of criticism of the Catholic Church lately. I actually really love and respect that institution. Sure, it utilizes more than the Bible as a source, but I assure you, so does Protestantism, even when they pretend not to.

Lord Haseo said:

darth_ender said:

Lord Haseo said:

darth_ender said:
You’ve clearly assumed it, but whatever, I’m too busy to find examples right now, so let’s just assume you really are giving religious people, myself included, fair consideration as intelligent human beings.

Which is what you should have been assuming this whole time. Funny thing is you’re the only one who seems to notice this intolerance you’re speaking of.

No, I’m not, but I’m also hitting home a point.

I don’t remember Dek or Warbler ever saying that they felt they were being treated as if they were intellectually inferior.

I don’t think anyone in particular feels you were calling them that. I don’t feel like you were insulting me personally. Just religion in general.

Look, I was indeed criticizing you harshly, deliberately being insulting for my amusement. I am trying to tone it down because I do want you to know I’m a rational human being and I don’t want to taint your view of my arguments anymore. I want you to consider them, even if you ultimately disagree. But I still am blunt when I feel it is appropriate. I don’t think you have been terribly insulting, but that is in part because I feel your arguments have been weak. I feel you do have a generalized view of religious persons that indicates a belief in their inferior reasoning. You’ve made statements that essentially state religion prevents critical thinking, use of empirical evidence, and leads to prejudice. Your phrasing wasn’t gentle, and if I’d felt you were some threat to my point of view, I might have been more insulted. I’m just saying you do come off as a bit arrogant in how you portray your POV.

Also that’s a very poor example you’re using as the line between saying “I hate Black Culture” vs saying “I hate Black people” is very minuscule while hating Religion and being okay with Religious people are completely separate.

Please enlighten me how it’s different. It affects your judgment of me. It affects your judgment of many religious folks. You may be “okay” with them, but you perceive them as unscientific, bigoted, and promoters of hate. Such is not always the case. You allow your judgment to be tainted by your hatred.

It’s different because black culture effects the way black people act in a much simpler way then being a Christian. There are Christians who don’t believe in hating gays and making women subservient to men and there are Christians who don’t agree on the prerequisites for going to Hell etc. so it’s as clear cut as you’re making it out to be because there are many many types of Christians who practice their Religious beliefs in different ways.

I fail to see the difference at all and don’t even fully understand your logic here. Black culture is a complex thing, much like religion. Religion really is a culture, or perhaps a sub-culture, but then again, so is black culture, WASP culture, etc., all falling under American culture. All these cultural norms affect our perception of the world, and all of us have prejudice, whether we care to admit it or not. Don’t oversimplify black culture. The analogy is perfect.

Boy, you sure know a lot about me for having interacted with me so little and really not understanding my posting history. Nice assumptions.

You have been more or less the same thing but okay buddy.

I’ve just quoted what you said and made points about it. I didn’t extrapolate any further than that.

I think using key words in my posts and making statements about them even though you know damn well what I’m talking about counts as extrapolating.

I actually was quoting exactly what you said.

Not even sure why you bring this up, honestly. I am calling your hatred of Christianity bigotry. Why did you even say this?

“Hate the sin, love the sinner”

That’s why I brought it up

Which has been called here justification for bigotry.

And like I said before there’s nothing wrong with being religious. I just don’t like the Religions themselves.
Meaning I don’t like The Bible, The Quran or any other types of holy texts. I may like certain teachings in them but that doesn’t do much in the long run.

A religion is more than just the Bible, and the Bible is more than just the verse you find offensive. There are good messages in there, and they are ancient texts, ancient guidelines for ancient people. And those teachings have shaped the world you live in. As I pointed out to Jeebus, religion guided the founding of this country and its very liberating ideologies. Religion has promoted equality among humans.

But here I want to reassure you that I didn’t call you a bigot for hating the Bible. I am calling you a bigot for literally stating, “I hate Christianity.”

Christians are a group (which happen to fall under that umbrella of Christianity, which you hate).

You know what the funny thing about this is? This all started because I said I hate the Bible. I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general. Just some food for thought. Furthermore I believe the only person to outright say “I hate Christianity” was Darth Lucas and he clarified that he meant that he hated the Bible and not those who read it. So basically you’re bitching about absolutely nothing.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/960187

And what is the center of Christianity? I’ll give you a hint; it’s the thing I said I hated that started all of this.

You said, “Some of us don’t hate you (as in Christians) just the Religion itself…” and now you’re saying, “I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general.” You are a contradictory man.

Actually the center of Christianity is Christ. And Christ preached a very good message, applicable to today. His standards are so high, no one can truly live by them. But we can aspire to do so.

Lord Haseo said:

There’s actually a study that shows that Atheists tend to know more about what’s in Religious texts (primarily the Bible) than actual believers. As someone who used to be a “militant Atheist” a few years back I learned many things about the Bible to fuel my hatred of it and to know what I was talking about when I debated people.

But that is interesting that you used to be a “militant Atheist.” Very revealing.

I hated religion far more than I do now but never did I ever say that I hated Christians. That’s even more telling

See, again you use the word religion, not the Bible. “I hated religion far more than I do now…” You hate religion. I don’t really care, but it does indicate to me a certain level of bigotry. Such hatred does affect your judgment of those who are religious in a prejudiced way. But as I said above, we are all bigoted to some extent.

Citation please? Just because I call it like I see it doesn’t mean I’m being overly sensitive. I have far harder discussions in real life with atheists. Why would I be too sensitive to handle featherweight arguments on an Internet board with people I will never meet in real life?

Pick any of the posts you’ve made accusing people of being bigots because they don’t like your religion. Also you bring up a good question but I have no idea why you’re crying so much to people you will never interact with face to face.

Am I crying?

Probably

You’re a funny man, but such does nothing to help your argument.

I thought I was trying to have a (half–mine of course) intelligent discussion with you. And you continue to use much stronger language, indicating a much stronger emotional response and greater sensitivity to what I’ve said.

At least my response wasn’t predicated on putting words in your mouth and trying to tell you what you said isn’t really what you said. Aside from you shooting baseless accusations it takes a special kind of arrogance to tell someone what they really said and feel.

What words did I put in your mouth? I have quoted you. I am telling you what such statements mean.

If I said, “I hate black culture but I don’t hate black people,” you would be within your rights to still call me a racist. I could argue, but you didn’t put words in my mouth.

No, I think any firmly held belief can do that. Including atheism.

See: Lord Haseo 😉

WRONG ATHEIST

I know it deepy affects your worldview, but you are a bigot. DENIAL.

In your skewed worldview? Yes. In the worldview most people know to be true? No.

I’m sure you’re a nice guy in real life. But that doesn’t mean you are not or can not be a bigot. I’ll say it again, we all are. You have simply revealed your reasoning here.

darth_ender said:

Lord Haseo said:

darth_ender said:

Lord Haseo said:

darth_ender said:
You’ve clearly assumed it, but whatever, I’m too busy to find examples right now, so let’s just assume you really are giving religious people, myself included, fair consideration as intelligent human beings.

Which is what you should have been assuming this whole time. Funny thing is you’re the only one who seems to notice this intolerance you’re speaking of.

No, I’m not, but I’m also hitting home a point.

I don’t remember Dek or Warbler ever saying that they felt they were being treated as if they were intellectually inferior.

I don’t think anyone in particular feels you were calling them that. I don’t feel like you were insulting me personally. Just religion in general.

So? Given that I adhere to the scientific method and empirical evidence I have every right to believe Religion is stupid. I understand why people gravitate to it (people who were practically forced to believe as a child excluded) but I don’t think the stories and statements about reality in Religions makes any sense.

You’ve made statements that essentially state religion prevents critical thinking

For some people

use of empirical evidence

It does…

and leads to prejudice.

For a lot it does as well. There are millions of people who hate gays because of the passages in the Bible and Quran. I am grateful however that quite a few have forsaken such passages and embrace people for being different than them. And let’s not even get into other groups such as Women, people with other Religions, people who are of the same Religions but are in different sects, Atheists etc.

Your phrasing wasn’t gentle, and if I’d felt you were some threat to my point of view, I might have been more insulted. I’m just saying you do come off as a bit arrogant in how you portray your POV.

In a lot of cases I try not to; but I assure you that this arrogance came after you came at me with contempt.

Also that’s a very poor example you’re using as the line between saying “I hate Black Culture” vs saying “I hate Black people” is very minuscule while hating Religion and being okay with Religious people are completely separate.

Please enlighten me how it’s different. It affects your judgment of me. It affects your judgment of many religious folks. You may be “okay” with them, but you perceive them as unscientific, bigoted, and promoters of hate. Such is not always the case. You allow your judgment to be tainted by your hatred.

It’s different because black culture effects the way black people act in a much simpler way then being a Christian. There are Christians who don’t believe in hating gays and making women subservient to men and there are Christians who don’t agree on the prerequisites for going to Hell etc. so it’s as clear cut as you’re making it out to be because there are many many types of Christians who practice their Religious beliefs in different ways.

I fail to see the difference at all and don’t even fully understand your logic here. Black culture is a complex thing, much like religion. Religion really is a culture, or perhaps a sub-culture, but then again, so is black culture, WASP culture, etc., all falling under American culture. All these cultural norms affect our perception of the world, and all of us have prejudice, whether we care to admit it or not. Don’t oversimplify black culture. The analogy is perfect.

Perhaps I did oversimplify our culture a bit but you vastly oversimplified Christians. I don’t really like doing this but my experience as a mixed man, who has had multiple black friends and even best friends for the entirety of my life and have met many other types of black folk in my days I am telling you that the things that be attributed to black culture exclusively is not as varied as what can be attributed to how different Christians act. Maybe that’s because I haven’t been up North as I should but being Christian (or Religious) is multifaceted in the way that one can adopt the teachings and go about life in adherence to them.

Boy, you sure know a lot about me for having interacted with me so little and really not understanding my posting history. Nice assumptions.

You have been more or less the same thing but okay buddy.

I’ve just quoted what you said and made points about it. I didn’t extrapolate any further than that.

I think using key words in my posts and making statements about them even though you know damn well what I’m talking about counts as extrapolating.

I actually was quoting exactly what you said.

But you know what I meant…I even clarified it.

Lord Haseo said:
Unless you are literally a Bible it is not bigotry. I don’t hate you and I don’t hate Christians in general; I just hate the book.

Not even sure why you bring this up, honestly. I am calling your hatred of Christianity bigotry. Why did you even say this?

“Hate the sin, love the sinner”

That’s why I brought it up

Which has been called here justification for bigotry.

And like I said before there’s nothing wrong with being religious. I just don’t like the Religions themselves.
Meaning I don’t like The Bible, The Quran or any other types of holy texts. I may like certain teachings in them but that doesn’t do much in the long run.

A religion is more than just the Bible, and the Bible is more than just the verse you find offensive. There are good messages in there, and they are ancient texts, ancient guidelines for ancient people.

I have said multiple times that there are good things in the Bible but a lot of them are things you can find in other mediums.

Religion has promoted equality among humans.

Not the Judeo-Christian ones…

But here I want to reassure you that I didn’t call you a bigot for hating the Bible. I am calling you a bigot for literally stating, “I hate Christianity.”

Christians are a group (which happen to fall under that umbrella of Christianity, which you hate).

You know what the funny thing about this is? This all started because I said I hate the Bible. I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general. Just some food for thought. Furthermore I believe the only person to outright say “I hate Christianity” was Darth Lucas and he clarified that he meant that he hated the Bible and not those who read it. So basically you’re bitching about absolutely nothing.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/960187

And what is the center of Christianity? I’ll give you a hint; it’s the thing I said I hated that started all of this.

You said, “Some of us don’t hate you (as in Christians) just the Religion itself…” and now you’re saying, “I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general.” You are a contradictory man.

I was pointing out how this all started. If you go back to the genesis of this entire argument (which doesn’t even start ITT) you will see I was just giving my reasoning for hating the Bible. Nice try.

Actually the center of Christianity is Christ. And Christ preached a very good message, applicable to today. His standards are so high, no one can truly live by them. But we can aspire to do so.

Lord Haseo said:

There’s actually a study that shows that Atheists tend to know more about what’s in Religious texts (primarily the Bible) than actual believers. As someone who used to be a “militant Atheist” a few years back I learned many things about the Bible to fuel my hatred of it and to know what I was talking about when I debated people.

But that is interesting that you used to be a “militant Atheist.” Very revealing.

I hated religion far more than I do now but never did I ever say that I hated Christians. That’s even more telling

See, again you use the word religion, not the Bible. “I hated religion far more than I do now…” You hate religion.

But you know that when I mean Religion I mean the holy texts but you’re using me saying “Religion” to imply that “if I hate X I must hate you by proxy” even though you know damn well what I mean. That’s pretty petty man.

Such hatred does affect your judgment of those who are religious in a prejudiced way. But as I said above, we are all bigoted to some extent.

So you’re omniscient now? You know every thought I have thought about Religious people? If you do you would know I know two people (one being my cousin and the other being someone I befriended when I was doing GED courses and later in College) and both of them are way smarter than me. If I really were prejudice my mind would create excuses to undermine their intelligence but I don’t and can’t because I’m not prejudice.

Everyone has small unconscious biases sure what you’re proposing is full on bigotry and I assure you that is not the case.