Extended original cut of first film released way back? — Page 3

Bingowings said:

You could have wandered into a divergent universe. It happens all the time to me.

*green with envy*

Dek Rollins said:
I wouldn’t say the examples you two gave of your own are really comparable to having memories of whole scenes existing that are missing from the official cut (all of which are actual scenes that were filmed, not figments of imagination).

I can see what you’re getting at, Dek. The “size” of the memory really isn’t important though because it’s still a faulty mechanism that’s creating it to start with. The fact that the memories are of things which exist in one form or another actually reinforces the false memory.

The Jabba scene didn’t really come into the general consciousness unti the lead up to the Special Editions in 1996/97 and I’d be very suprised if cinebird’s memory of the scene predates that time. A briefly glimpsed photo, a half-remembered magazine article, a story told in an interview could all have combined into creating an impression of what the scene was and later solidified and cemented when the actual footage of the scene was shown in a 1997 documentary. Add to that the amount of times cinebird has likely seen the CG Jabba scene in the past nineteen years which further ties it into the rest of the movie and affects, by association, his “memory” of the initial, and likely most emotionally resonant, experience of it.

Have you heard of the Mandela effect, Dek? It’s worth reading about if you haven’t! (At least, I remember it being worth it.)

My memory predates any of the crap that came later. Read my account again for clarity.

Mark’s Down On Your Syntax said:
… it’s still a faulty mechanism that’s creating it to start with. The fact that the memories are of things which exist in one form or another actually reinforces the false memory.

Saying my memory is a false creation, in the assertive and certain way you did here, strongly reveals what you very much want it to be. The rest of your post is simply your own narration of my life and viewing history, which may in your own mind reinforce your own views, but none of which is accurate btw. That’s fine, I get that some people want to compartmentalize input for their own comfort level.

I’m inclined to agree with that 😃

I never saw this cartoon before, nor anything in 1983 about some special. So no, this is not any source material for forming false memories.

cinebird said:

My memory predates any of the crap that came later. Read my account again for clarity.

Mark’s Down On Your Syntax said:
… it’s still a faulty mechanism that’s creating it to start with. The fact that the memories are of things which exist in one form or another actually reinforces the false memory.

Saying my memory is a false creation, in the assertive and certain way you did here, strongly reveals what you very much want it to be. The rest of your post is simply your own narration of my life and viewing history, which may in your own mind reinforce your own views, but none of which is accurate btw. That’s fine, I get that some people want to compartmentalize input for their own comfort level.

I can claim on this anonymous website that I’m actually a sentient computer running for president, but that doesn’t make it reality.

I believe that you strongly remember the event. I tried to make it clear that I wasn’t saying it didn’t happen. The fact is that if the scene was cut into the film, shipped to a theatre and shown then it was very likely a one-off (or close to it). An unintended error by Fox or the production team (?) The fact that nobody involved in the production has mentioned this scene being cut into the film on its original release to the public coupled with the fact that the Special Edition was used to allow them to get the scene cut in makes me think it’s more likely you’re misremembering. It’s not an attack on your memory or on you personally, nor is it me trying to bolster my “denial” about your recollections. We’re not having an argument here because neither one of us can do anything of value with our “side” of things.

But false memory syndrome is a reality, it’s hugely interesting to me and I think that reading up on the phenomena would be of interest to you too. As you can see from this thread you’ve been posting in, memories of things happening in Star Wars that might not have actually happened or that very few other people have seen is not uncommon!

I want you to be right, cinebird. I think it’d be brilliant if there was a rogue copy of Star Wars released that had the human Jabba scene in it. I wonder in forty years if people will be saying the same sort of things about The Force Awakens?!

Stills from the deleted scenes were also included in the original novelization (at least Biggs and Luke on Tatooine, anyway). I remember being super confused about that as a child.

Well, I have to say that the in theater audio recordings pretty much rule out there being an early, different cut. The one I’m thinking of in particular was an early 70 mm showing and it is pretty well documented that there were only 2 versions of the film in 77 and they only differ by audio and the end credits. Anything else anyone claims to remember is a false memory that came from some other source besides the film. You may not even remember which of the many sources for these other scenes it was. My memory of Luke missing his first try with the grappling hook came from the novel. Biggs showed up in books and trading cards And don’t know where all. An active imagination coupled with these other sources pretty much explains any unverifiable memory of a scene. You can claim you remember it all you want, but that doesn’t make it true. The new scans of several 35 mm prints as well as 16 mm prints and the oldest video recordings all agree on the cut of the film and no evidence has ever come to light that there was ever another cut. From my understanding, the Toshe Station scenes were never included in any cut because they were the first thing cut and were only filmed because they were the first scenes ready to shoot. Lucas had written them at other people’s suggestion and didn’t like how they turned out. Jabba was cut because it was never supposed to be human and they ran out of time to do any effects. When you research the available material on these extra scenes, it is clear they were cut early in editing so it is impossible to have seen them until they were released years later. But photos were out in 77 as was the script. The novel was out 6 months before the film. The other sources of those parts of the story coupled with the nature of human memory makes a false memory more than likely.

Say what you like, I still have my own views of the matter. The print sources you mention are all derivatives from the same so them agreeing doesn’t mean anything. You might as well throw in LaserDisc, Super-8, Betamax, and U-Matic for all that says. And mentioning books, scripts, photos, trading cards, comic books, novels, etc has no relevance. I was not much of a fan and never bothered with that extra crap.

Of the trilogy, I saw the original movie 3 times in June 77, Empire Strikes Back in 80, and Return of the Jedi once in 83. The jabba scene sticks in my mind because in 83 it was jarring to see a slug in Jedi when I had memory of jabba being a human before that. After that was a 20 year gap not paying attention to Star Wars at all. Too busy with work and life. Around 2003 my son got interested in Star Wars so I wanted to show him the first movie. We watched it on VHS. That one had the slug jabba in the hangar scene. I was like huh that’s weird, thought sure that scene had a guy originally. Being curious, occasionally after that I tried other sources on DVD and VHS, some had them had slug jabba, some didn’t have the scene at all, and when I saw one with a human jabba, thought ok yeah, finally this is what I remember from 77.

Digging into it abit lately, it seems even amongst the original production staff there is some confusion and disagreement on that scene - whether there were camera or technical problems or not, whether there were one or multiple days of shooting to fix problems, if the scene was meant to be human or a stop action model, etc, etc.

It does bother me that most sources now, assert the scene was cut out of the theatre release. And yet I seem to recall it being there in my marathon viewing in June 77. Could it be a remanufactured memory? Of course its always possible. Have wondered this myself.

But I also think its possible my memory is real. It cannot be denied that they made substantive audio edits and track and print format changes during the theatre run from May77 to Nov78. Also Lucas being so OCD about tweaks then often fibbing about the history, his intentions, etc - doesn’t help me buy much of what he says about that scene.

My own view is 20th Century pushed them kicking and screaming to release something, while they were still debating what to do about that scene. Lucas himself says he asked for money from Fox to change things which gave him heartburn, even while Star Wars was in the theatre. Personally I don’t believe they had any idea Star Wars was going to be anything but a one-off mediocre space movie. So my own belief is when Fox pushed them to release in May77 (months behind schedule), they let the film out with a lot of rough edges both in audio and visual, and while still arguing what to do about this or that. I think once it became clear it was going to be a smash hit, that’s when Lucas started seriously thinking about sequels, things which really bothered him to change in the original, etc. I’m sure that Jabba scene was at the top of the list of things which fried his bacon.

SilverWook said:

Calling all the ancillary material crap is a tad harsh.

Yeah probably. Didn’t quite mean it like that, just it was a big pile. I even knew a guy who had a disco version of music on 8-track.

When Disney declared the books “non-canonical” whatever that means, it made me want to read them. But, I haven’t gotten around to it.

The thing is, there is plenty from 1977 for us to pour over and nothing indicates any other cut of the film. Check out this thread for a list of original 1977 audio recordings made in theaters - http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Theater-Performance-Preservations/id/12161

Whether the Jabba scene was filmed with the intention to cover the actor with stop motion animation is a valid question. However, the scene was filmed and not used. It is in the novel, the comics, the special edition, and pieces of it have a appeared over the years. It is more likely that you saw a clip and your memory has inserted it into the film.

The audio for the 1977 release is well documented. The 6 track version that went with the 70 mm is the same audio mix as the matrixed stereo version (save for the low frequency channel). The mono mix was the only new one and even it isn’t all that different from the stereo version. We have some very early recordings, in particular of the 70 mm - a type of print that was way too expensive to make to make changes to. Once the film went into distribution, Lucas lost all ability to control it. It was, after all (and still is), the property of 20th Century Fox. He was given a chance to tweak the end credits and make a mono mix of the audio for the film to be better compatible with theaters that hadn’t updated yet, but this was to 20th Century Fox’s advantage because having a mono soundtrack increased the number of theaters they could sell it to. But there is not one shred of credible evidence that there was ever anything but those two cuts of the film. And the 70 mm version is archived in the 16 mm copy (with the very slightly different end credits).

This is quite different from the well documented rough cut of Blade Runner (now available) or the 70 mm cut of TESB where we have tangible evidence that there were noticeable differences in the cut. Many movies have rough cuts or test screenings, but the only other version of Star Wars known is the B&W rough cut that caused Lucas to fire his first editor. The cantina sequence from that cut has been released twice as a bonus feature (the Behind the Magic CDROM and the blu-ray box set).

yotsuya said:

The thing is, there is plenty from 1977 for us to pour over and nothing indicates any other cut of the film.

So…in other words, your mom never mentioned it?

Darth Id said:

yotsuya said:

The thing is, there is plenty from 1977 for us to pour over and nothing indicates any other cut of the film.

So…in other words, your mom never mentioned it?

??? Your comment makes no sense and is irrelevant. Seems you latched onto one data point and don’t know what to do with it.

I have my own memories of the original (the wider run, not sure if my theater showed the mono mix or stereo mix - though I’m pretty sure the theater was mono). Not to mention all the research I’ve been doing on the sound mixes and their origins. Star Wars was a pretty big deal. It was the first film widely released with Dolby Stereo (a matrixed 4 channel surround format compatible with simple stereo and mono speaker setups). So the original presentation is pretty well documented. And if there had been any alternate cut distributed anywhere, there would be a lot of people with memory of it and knowledge of it. Instead what we find is that those who saw the 70 mm in the early showings have vivid memories of the surround sound and the LFE with no comments on extra scenes. Same with the wider 35 mm release later in 1977. I have come across zero credible reports that any edits were made to the body of the film (the end credits were changed from the first run prints to the wider release prints and Episode IV: A New Hope was added to the crawl and the opening show was recomposited in 1981) between the first showing and the 1997 Special Edition. The few isolated memories, such as mine of Luke making a failed attempt at throwing the grappling hook before a successful second attempt, all seem to stem from creative memories and other sources. I had the script (The Art of Star Wars) and the novel and a few trading cards as well as some other story books. The way movies were distributed pretty much precludes multiple versions going out without someone knowing about it. The first known viewing of the full Toche Station scenes was in 1998 with the Behind the Magic CDROM. The Jabba scene has never been released in its entirety. Plenty of pictures existed and the scenes were in the novel, the published script, and and the Marvel comics. Plenty of opportunity for false memories to be registered, such as mine of the grappling hook, which was never filmed with a first try miss. Memory is a funny thing and it can easily fool us.

Oh, I get it! Your writer friends never mentioned it, either?

Darth Id said:

Oh, I get it! Your writer friends never mentioned it, either?

Damn you, I laughed.