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.: The Lancer DVD Project :. (* unfinished project *) — Page 2
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also, adjusted contrast slightly to overcome the eye searingly white of the stormtrooper armour in some scenes. this is not something I can cure becase the original capture was too bright but the contrast adjust seems to be okay. I've also made it a bit more blue in the RGB values.
this tweak has also toned down the vibrancy of the orange flight suits which I am happy about. I've always felt that in the SE's and the new DVD's that they are just toooooo orange, I never ever remember them being that bright and I think that is more a fault of the color correction done in the reissues.
I also see where I went wrong first time around. all of my color values were done to match the capture source. ie what you see in the original shots at the beginning of this thread is what the DE LD's were like. when I should have been more subjective in my color correction etc to better values. now leia's white costume actually is white rather than a more creamy white yellow.
the shots are laid out in sequential pairs. the top shot is the pre shot, basic brightness contrast and saturation adjustment + limitedsharpen via avisynth script, the bottom one has been further adjusted using saturation and RGB balancing + MSU smart sharpen to tighten up the image further.
shot 5 is also a bit of a treat for mebejedi fans as this is one of the frames he was kind enough to send me to fix my canyon problem. I have color corrected his frame + also sharpened it up but his base capture file is a lot better than what I am working with at present.
mebe, I can send you my settings that I have used if you're interested and wondering how I got from your original colour set to mine.
screenie1
screenie2
screenie3
screenie4
screenie5
screenie6
for those interested, I seriously recommend getting a virtualdub filter called white balance. get to the site here
go to the hosted menu and it is on the list there.
tremendously useful.
it combines the donald graft brightness/contrast filter, his hue saturation intensity filter and a white balance filter into one. the white balance in particular is an invaluable tool and made my final product look a damn sight more balanced on its color values without tons of farting around.
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non-anamorphic. nope, sorry, won't happen. takes too long for my machine to render out the avi file as it is, I'm not going to be able to get that past the wife twice.
I wouldn't say mine is the best to be honest. for a start, mverta is gonna kill all our efforts stone dead some day, already has to some extent. I would still say Zion , mebejedi and Moth3r have the edge, purely because they are capturing on better kit than I did.
mine was done two years ago from the DE set on a Pioneer 515 player into a VIVO Geforce 1 card. the whites and highlights are a bit blown out on my capture and that detail is lost, never to return. I did it two years ago and having seen the likes of Zion's and others, mebejedi for example, my capture lacks in some areas. all I'm doing now is polishing a turd really.
I do have empire and jedi's raw capture, but not ANH, I lost it in a partition crash. all this work has been done using an AVI'd version of my original encodes M2v file. yup, I'm re-encoding an mpeg of my original capture. so I am starting two generations down from the source.
the compensating factor here is how the filters have improved in the last two years.
big thanks to zion and laserschwert, without your input I'd never have found sangnom.
sangnom fixed the jaggies big time, seriously, use that filter.
msu smart sharpen is entirely responsible for the detail you now see. the top screenies illustrates how I oversoftened my source capture and lost lots of edge detail. I used pixiedust for that originally and while it killed the mosquito noise, it also buggered a lot else. on my TV it looks a bit soft, but the new MSU smart sharpened version kicks ass.
it makes me mad though, I am sorely tempted to buy another laserdisc player, buy the discs again and do it all over again. I know I could do a better job of it.
instead I am going to try and DE SE the DVD next time and do what I can that way.
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1. getting my sound from stereo PCM to 5.1
found for me personally, the most hassle free method to be
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59949
so thanks mebejedi for even making me aware that such routines were doable. I'd looked at them once before on Doom9 but the plogue bidule VST route seemed like an awful lot of complicated effort with contradictory guides. the above link works like a charm and is easy to follow.
one thing though. did you tweak the guide much to get a good solid centre channel? I've found my speech to be a bit tinny.
2. findng some way of speeding things up when rendering to my interim avi.
as good as it is, I still get this feeling that I could get the same results MSU smartsharpen is giving me, without having to sit for 24+ hours watching it process at a mere 2 frames per second. I've got a P4 2.8 for gods sake and this unoptimised filter is not using the full power available.
so thus far. investigations last night found some interesting stuff.
firstly, asharp is a good filter. much faster than MSU, about 8 times faster in fact. however there are certain unsharp aspects to MSU that still give it the edge. however, tonight I will be trying unfilter.
I tried this once before a long time ago on a really crappy capture and got a reasonable result from it. it brought forward a lot of detail that was washed away. I'm hoping that this in combination with asharp will give a comparable result to MSU.
in addition, other filters to consider people if you don't want to go the combustion Mebejedi route to clean up some of the laser rot spots or film damage spots.
undot and removedot both do a nice job.
the only thing left to get everything out of virtualdub and into script is a comparable filter for avisynth that replicates donald grafts RGB filter and something that gets me control of white balance in avisynth.
laserschwert, you're a script guru.
my RGB setting is R 98, G 100, B 108
white balance is adjusting the white value to the standard 255, 255, 255.
what's comparable in avisynth to do this?
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But her costume isn't white, at least not compared to the stromtroopers.
"mebe, I can send you my settings that I have used if you're interested and wondering how I got from your original colour set to mine."
Is mine the picture on top?
"one thing though. did you tweak the guide much to get a good solid centre channel? I've found my speech to be a bit tinny."
Not really, but it's only supposed to be dialogue anyways. Most of the effects will come from the left or right. I don't know what you are using to compile your AC3, but Vegas allows you to control each channel independantly, and throughout the soundtrack as well.
BTW, where's the white balance filter again?
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>
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But her costume isn't white, at least not compared to the stromtroopers.
depends. in that corridor of the tantive, as far as the DE LD is concerned and the SE DVD, there is a creamy cast to her dress. it certainly doesn't look white in comparison to the white corridor and the stormtrooper armour which we know is white
but I'm afraid I disagree with you.
reasons for doing so
a) both the corridors of the tantive, and the stormtrooper armour were made from vacformed glossy plastic so it's white point is higher than white material.
b) later in the film, when leia is in her cell
i) when vader enters with the interrogation droid
ii) when luke comes into her cell
she is wearing a white dress, it's a bit mucky but it is a white dress.
c) archive evidence. take a look at the Star Wars Chronicles book if you can. (this is a huge hardback, coffee table glossy book, packed with hundreds of reference photo's from the lucasfilm archives.) in it are pictures of Leia's costume. it is plainly white.
also, publicity photo's of the day, show her dress to be white. they can't all be wrong.
screenie 5
yes, the top shot is yours. bottom shot has been adjusted using tweak, msu smart sharpen, RGB and white balance adjustment.
again this is a thorny shot. In the canyon sequence, luke's tunic changes color about 5 times. even allowing for film stock and different developing solutions on different days, I think this is more a case of the fact they made about 10 of these tunics and they got mucky in varying degrees in the tunisian desert and the canyon scene was shot over 5 days*.
(the unofficial making of star wars), so it seems probable that mark hammill wasn't wearing the same tunic on some of the days of shooting during this sequence. further examination of archival material indicates that the tunic was white but got mucky from desert dust and stained varying shades.
the white balance filter can be found her :
white balance filter
it is a good filter, but now that I've got everything else into script and have found an acceptable (but faster) way of getting a sharp interim file without using MSU, I don't need to be using vdubs full processing mode, which saves me a colorspace conversion step.
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but I'm afraid I disagree with you."
But you just agreed with me.
If that's the color her dress is in that scene, then it should be the same in the rest of the scenes, unless you think she changed her warddrobe.
"also, publicity photo's of the day, show her dress to be white. they can't all be wrong."
Which means the Tantive scene is wrong? The color of her dress seems pretty consistent throughout that scene. I think you need to be more focused on the dress, rather than the colors around it. This can have an effect on the perceived color of the dress.
I might also point out that one reason the dress isn't completely white is because it is made of a very thin material, and you are seeing some skin tones through the dress (this effect is more pronounced where the dress rests on her shoulders.) If you up the white on it, you are ultimately missing out on some important "details" - i.e. the trash compactor scene. There's a reason why they had to tape her boobs down.
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>
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But you just agreed with me.
but I did and I didn't. yes, in the DE LD and SE DVD it's got a creamy cast, but its generally agreed on this board that the SE DVD has porked color correction thanks to lucasfilm prior to Lowry getting their hands on it. and the DE LD is very washed out and faded.
we know blue is off and over saturated, the skin tones are a bit red so it follows that other things are off too. stormtrooper white is a bit too cool blue, etc.
so my point is, in the sources we have, it appears creamy yes, ( ie I agree with you on how it looks in commercially available video sources), but those are sources we can't totally trust regards colour value.
which is why I cite other additional evidential sources regards dress colour. a similar argument exists regarding the shirt colour of the soldiers on the Tantive. in some scenes, it's blue, in others a gray blue.
hence, why I think I'm right in colour correcting the dress so that it is white in this scene. I think the amount of 'skin' showing through the fabric on the DVD is a color correction issue. a very faint pink through white would get changed as it has on the DVD to be more vibrant and obvious if the colour correction is off, which we know it is.
and yes, the skintone coming through the thin fabric is certainly an issue to consider. looking at other sources doesn't remotely show the dress as being as gauzy as the SE DVD so again, I think the new DVD is misleading us as to what colour values it should have.
the black of vaders costume and the white of the stormtroopers is a known factor and I think it's where we should be taking the colour key from in this scene, not her dress being creamy yellow white.
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My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]
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And I've used neither. I used the Faces set, which isn't as faded out. Perhaps that would explain why my transfer has better colors than yours. I know that I really had to darken down my first transfer made with the Def. Col. In fact, looking at your transfer, Leia's face looks a little too pasty-white, and her hair is light brown.
"so my point is, in the sources we have, it appears creamy yes, ( ie I agree with you on how it looks in commercially available video sources), but those are sources we can't totally trust regards colour value."
But we know it's a see-through dress, and therefore cannot be completely white.
"in some scenes, it's blue, in others a gray blue."
Then you need to pick one. That being said, Leia's shoulder can be seen through her dress in my transfer, so it can't be completely white.
"I think the amount of 'skin' showing through the fabric on the DVD is a color correction issue."
Why don't you wait until I send you a screencap of that scene on my transfer?
"looking at other sources doesn't remotely show the dress as being as gauzy as the SE DVD"
Have you looked at the Faces set?
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>
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I see what you mean about the dress.
I've tweaked my script so that I've cooled the yellow but retained the creamy aspect of her dress in the tantive scene.
makes a difference to skin tone too.
Damn U Smart Sharpen!!!! I still haven't found anything that can beat it. in script anyway.
perhaps I can improve on it in Vegas or Premier or AE maybe.
ie make the interim file. then sharpen for the final pass in one of these programs. but they are sooooo slow!!!!
vegas unsharp mask is quite nice. anyone got a source for 3rd party vegas or AE plugins in the sharpen category at all? PM if you wanna be kind.
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Originally posted by: tellan
I think I should have captured off [the Faces set] instead of the DE. it's a damn sight better considering what I've seen of Zion's and Karyudo's screen grabs.
I think I should have captured off [the Faces set] instead of the DE. it's a damn sight better considering what I've seen of Zion's and Karyudo's screen grabs.
Thanks for the unsolicited praise! But don't get too disheartened: most of the screen caps you've seen of mine are either from the PAL set or from the Japanese Faces set. Both of those sources are (in my opinion) nicer than the US NTSC Faces set, which is for all intents and purposes exactly the same as the Definitive Collection (which I also have).
The US and Japanese Faces and Definitive Collections are all taken from the same telecine transfer (the PAL telecine transfer is different; it's not just upsampled or converted from NTSC). The DC is CAV, which allows freeze frames better than CLV, and takes more sides. Other than that, it's the same exact thing as the Faces release. The Japanese discs are (probably) at IRE 0, as opposed to the US NTSC standard practice of IRE 7.5. So they're darker (and maybe better mastered?), but still the same source.
Don't forget that Zion has done some pretty fancy post-processing to get his caps lookin' as good as they look. It's not coming off the disc looking that nice!
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updated screenies to come once I've got avisynth and masktools and ltd sharpen co-operating again.
at the moment ltd sharpen don't work. damn u mask tools.
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My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]
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I have
C:
D:
E:
F:
as drives. boot off D:
I've got a new USB external hard drive and when it was plugged in I didn't know that ghost 2003 saw it as C: and bumped everything down a letter. so when I was restoring it said 'restoring to drive E:' and I went buggo because in dread because that is where all my filters, toolchains and everything else is stored. in fact, D: had become E: so I didn't but talk about heart failure.
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if anyone can resurrect my thread from the archive I'd appreciate it as I had links and stuff to the screenies etc of what I'd done so far.
Anything to help.............
4 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 6 - 2
Discuss…
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Because it sounds excellent.
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http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=1839
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D.O.
...at last we shall have revenge...
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screenies tomorrow but its looking better than before.
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sangnom cured all the jaggies, msu smart sharpen has really tightened it up and colormill has given it the colour boost it needed. roll on next weekend.
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I pinched mverta's star background off his website. (thanx for that) Tellan said humbly while prostrating himself at the altar of mverta. I also pinched the planet background of tatooine from the UK PAL DVD release.
then I rebuilt the credits, re coloured them, and used the modern fox logo. until someone comes up with a better one of the old logo, I'd rather do an mverta and use the new one. yes there is a bit of dot crawl but I can't eliminate whats left. also, I retimed to the star wars logo so that it retreats at the correct speed.
screenie of the credits. and the planet etc I used a matte for the firs time in vegas and blended my static background plate of the planet with the moving action from my capture.
note, this is not what mverta did. he re-rotoscoped all the laser blasts etc using the DVD. this is a combination of the Dvd backplate, mverta's corrected starfield. (note here that mine was derived from his small example on his website so his will be tons better.) and my captured footage with a travelling matte applied.
see what you think. I've chucked a few from later in the film as well to give you a taste
screenie 1
screenie 2
screenie 3
screenie 4
screenie 5
screenie 6
screenie 7
screenie 8
screenie 9
screenie 10
screenie 11
screenie 12
screenie 13
screenie 14
screenie 15
screenie 16
to recap, my release will be NTSC, anamorphic, possibly single layer, maybe dual, I've not got that far yet. I will have a stab like mebejedi at turning my stereo capture sound into 5.1. if not it's will be 2.0 dolby pro logic. depending on dual layer will decide on moving menu's another time.
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That's no moon. It's a LaserDisc.