What is wrong with... Attack of the Clones? - a general discussion thread — Page 21

Why would a minimum wage cook know where Kamino is when nobody in the entire Jedi council knows where it is except for a three year-old.

There is also the small thing that Palpatine needed the Jedi to discover the clones so that he could start his war. As I understand it, Palpatine ordered Jango to use the toxic dart on Zam with the knowledge that the Jedi would eventually trace it to Kamino. He also must have ordered Dooku to erase the planet from the archives, which would draw attention to itself when combined with the existence of the dart. It then follows that Palpatine must have ordered Jango to go to Kamino and wait for the Jedi to show up, and then lead the Jedi to Geonosis so that the war could begin. It sounds really contrived when put in those terms, but that’s George Lucas for you.

If anyone has another reason why Jango would singlehandedly lead the Jedi into a war, I’m all ears.

NeverarGreat said:

There is also the small thing that Palpatine needed the Jedi to discover the clones so that he could start his war. As I understand it, Palpatine ordered Jango to use the toxic dart on Zam with the knowledge that the Jedi would eventually trace it to Kamino. He also must have ordered Dooku to erase the planet from the archives, which would draw attention to itself when combined with the existence of the dart. It then follows that Palpatine must have ordered Jango to go to Kamino and wait for the Jedi to show up, and then lead the Jedi to Geonosis so that the war could begin. It sounds really contrived when put in those terms, but that’s George Lucas for you.

If anyone has another reason why Jango would singlehandedly lead the Jedi into a war, I’m all ears.

It was stylistically designed to be that way and we can’t undo that, but we can diminish the effects of it.

It’s gonna be great.

I had actually never considered the fact that the only reason the clones even showed up was because they followed a lead to Kamino. If Palpatine wanted Kamino to be discovered, why was it deleted from the books? Whatever.

Well if that’s the case then how come . . .? Eh, I give up.

NeverarGreat said:

There is also the small thing that Palpatine needed the Jedi to discover the clones so that he could start his war. As I understand it, Palpatine ordered Jango to use the toxic dart on Zam with the knowledge that the Jedi would eventually trace it to Kamino.

I could be wrong, but I’m not sure this was actually part of Palpatine’s plan: I think Palpatine would’ve eventually revealed the clone army’s existence to start the war, Obi-wan’s findings being just an opportunity to speed up the process.

He also must have ordered Dooku to erase the planet from the archives, which would draw attention to itself when combined with the existence of the dart.

I think they erased Kamino from the archives mainly to hide the existence of the clone army until the public opinion’s would’ve finally accepted it to fight the the separatists.

It then follows that Palpatine must have ordered Jango to go to Kamino and wait for the Jedi to show up, and then lead the Jedi to Geonosis so that the war could begin.

Palpatine and Dooku might’ve used Jango to bring a jedi to Kamino, but he clearly wasn’t aware of it: in fact, as soon as Obi-wan shows up on Kamino asking for questions, he flees to his employer on Genosis, while making sure to kill Obi-wan.
The only thing that makes no sense to me, is Jango saying “I was recuited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden”. Even though this doesn’t reveal anything important to Obi-wan, why saying this anyway? 😄

The whole plot is just so convoluted, I would just as much buy that Palpatine had orchestrated every little event in the movie as buy that the Jedi starting the war was only the result of Obi-wan’s investigation.

So why would Dooku erase a whole star system from the archives? He is obviously aware that you can’t actually do that since Hyperspace navigation requires precise calculations. We can’t have ships flying into missing planets or being flung wildly off course, so gravitational effects must remain. If the reason was that he didn’t want the Jedi to know about the clone army, I’d argue that a more effective way of doing that is not drawing attention to yourself by deleting a planet from the Jedi archives, a planet that people know about and that is home to a highly technologically sophisticated and wealthy species. If Dexter had just said that the dart had come from Kamino, it’s possible that Obi-wan would have simply assumed that was where the bounty hunter bought his weapons, not where disgruntled Spice Miners on the Moon of Naboo had hired their bounty hunter. That was after all the leading theory of the Jedi as to the source of the assassination attempts, so the Jedi could have demanded that Obi-wan go investigate that moon instead of Kamino. It is only after they discover the star’s deletion that Yoda gets suspicious and demands that Obi-wan take the trip.

If I were making bets, I’d say that there was a good chance that Dooku deleted the star system on orders from Palpatine, or even that Palpatine deleted the system in order to draw attention to the absence.

Another thing, why does Jango lead Obi-wan right to Geonosis? Unlike Kamino, this system hasn’t been suspiciously deleted from the archives, so if it was Dooku who wanted to delete planets to keep things secret, he forgot this big important one where they’re literally planning to build the Death Star. Perhaps its role in the war happened after Dooku could no longer access the archives. In any case, why did Jango go there? He knows he was just tracked down by a Jedi, does he think that he’ll be safe on Geonosis? Why not just go anywhere else in the galaxy that’s not the secret base of your employer? It’s the same problem that happened in ANH, where the Falcon could have gone anywhere else and gotten rid of the tracking device.

My guess is that Dooku fully intends for the Jedi to find Kamino and Geonosis, and although he is working for Palpatine, he secretly plots the overthrow of Palpatine and the defeat of the Republic. He’s an idealist after all, and though he goes along with Palpatine’s plan, he believes that he only does it to get close enough to Palpatine to put the proverbial knife in his back. So in Episode 3, perhaps he was the one who, alone, led the attack on Coruscant to capture and perhaps kill the Chancellor.

Perhaps the Clone Wars explain the character of Dooku, but I DON’T WATCH IT.

SilverWook said:

Jango doesn’t realize there’s a tracking device on his ship until he’s near the planet, and once he believes Obi Wan was asteroid chow, may have assumed that the Jedi had no time to report his position.

Right, but he technically doesn’t even need to know what his part in the plan is. Dooku could have told him ‘Jango, if the Jedi start snooping around, come find me on Geonosis.’ He says to the Geonosians that the Republic is ‘treacherous’ for raising an army, but he’s all smiles about it with Sidious.

Palpatine definitely wants the Jedi to find the clone army at Kamino, and he also wants the Jedi to be put into a situation where they have to use the army in battle, thus giving him control of a fifth column to subvert the Republic.

So - he has Dooku delete the planet Kamino from the Jedi Archives, but leave enough trace evidence to make it obvious to anyone looking that something’s fishy. He then orchestrates a scheme to get the Jedi interested in the planet: in this case by having Jango Fett use a Kamino saber-dart to kill the assassin sent for Padme.

(As an aside: Killing Padme not only would remove an obstacle to Palpatine in the Senate, it would also appease Nute Gunray’s anger over the events of TPM and cement him as an ally to Dooku’s puppet Confederation. But whether the plot succeeded or failed, it’s likely Jango had orders to take out Zam Wesell afterwards.)

Obi-Wan dutifully follows the clues from the saber-dart to the missing planet in the archives, to the actual planet Kamino, where he meets Jango in the flesh. Jango then goes to Geonosis specifically to lure Obi-Wan there, so that Dooku can take him prisoner.

Of course, the Jedi will naturally find out about Obi-Wan’s captivity, and it’s to be expected that they would do something to free him. In the era of TPM, a small team of elite Jedi (like Qui-gon) might have been sent to break him out stealthily - but as Palpatine has engineered matters, the Jedi Order now knows about the clone army. If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Actually, though, it’s possible the Jedi did try a bit of their own legerdemain: sending a force of Jedi warriors under Mace Windu to free Obi-Wan. And should that fail, as it did since they were heavily outgunned, the clone army under Yoda would move in, just when the Geonosians thought triumph was in their hands.

But by using the clone army at all, the Jedi play into Palpatine’s schemes, by instigating what turns into the Clone War, thus putting an army of custom-bred clones with secret psychological progamming to destroy the Jedi into Republic service.

Plans within plans.

Yeah, he’s kinda just two-dimensional evil guy in The Clone Wars. They don’t really talk about his past or who his is or what his motivations are. They do have a couple episodes where they show Serenno for a bit (which is where his title is from), but that’s as far as it goes.

If anything, I’d say the AOTC version is more nuanced and intriguing. In The Clone Wars, he’s just about straight up evil Sith Lord.

Well that’s disappointing. What a waste of Christopher Lee.

DuracellEnergizer said:

NeverarGreat said:

What a waste of Christopher Lee.

I’ll say – they cast a totally different actor!

Yeah, Corey Burton delivered a good performance, but the character itself just never had any development whatsoever.

ATMachine said:

[…] Jango then goes to Geonosis specifically to lure Obi-Wan there, so that Dooku can take him prisoner.

Why does he try to kill him in the asteroid field and leaves only when he’s sure he died, though? Supposing this was part of the plan, I think Jango really wasn’t aware of it.

EDIT: It may be that Palpatine’s plan was just to reaveal the existence of the clone army for the Republic, so this would explain why Jango tried to stop Obi-wan from getting on Geonosis. Some time later, they would’ve eventually found out about the droid army anyway, maybe by Dooku himself.

Why does he try to kill him in the asteroid field and leaves only when he’s sure he died, though? Supposing this was part of the plan, I think Jango really wasn’t aware of it.

That’s the peril of not communicating the essentials of your plan to your underlings. ;D