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Estimating the original colors of the original Star Wars trilogy — Page 12

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By true colours, do you mean the colour representation under a particular temperature of white light?

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poita said:

By true colours, do you mean the colour representation under a particular temperature of white light?

No, by true colors, I mean the color representation under an equal energy radiator or the CIE Standard illuminant E, the color representation under the purest form of white light.

Here’s what wiki has to say about it:

Illuminant E is an equal-energy radiator; it has a constant SPD inside the visible spectrum. It is useful as a theoretical reference; an illuminant that gives equal weight to all wavelengths, presenting an even color. It also has equal CIE XYZ tristimulus values, thus its chromaticity coordinates are (x,y)=(1/3,1/3). This is by design; the XYZ color matching functions are normalized such that their integrals over the visible spectrum are the same.

Illuminant E is beneath the Planckian locus, and roughly isothermal with D55.
Illuminant E is not a black body, so it does not have a color temperature, but it can be approximated by a D series illuminant with a CCT of 5455 K. (Of the canonical illuminants, D55 is the closest.) Manufacturers sometimes compare light sources against Illuminant E to calculate the excitation purity.

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Funny, when you look at the three corrected photos, the lower one looks better and it didn’t have the right color balance to begin with. I can’t wait for your tool to be finished. I have a ton of photos that need this kind of help.

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Okay, knowing that you are using illuminant E as your benchmark light-source makes it a lot easier to correct the results of your routine to the way it would look on film.

I have the characteristics of most common film stocks as well as most studio light sources, so can adjust more readily from the results of your algorithm.

So if I understand correctly, you look for as neutral a scene as possible, and then your algorithm analyses and adjusts the colours in those neutral shots as if they were shot under a theoretical illuminant E light source, and captured onto film that did not add its own colour characteristics.

Then use the offsets calculated on those scenes to calculate the offsets for the rest of the reel?

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yotsuya said:

Funny, when you look at the three corrected photos, the lower one looks better and it didn’t have the right color balance to begin with. I can’t wait for your tool to be finished. I have a ton of photos that need this kind of help.

Well, the third shot did have the right colour, if for example it was shot at sunset.

With a setting sun, the girl and scene would have been bathed in golden light. The correction tool in this case is correcting back to how that scene would have looked if lit with a 5455 Kelvin light source, if I understand correctly (I’m a bit dehydrated and delirious, so could be wrong).
(I know they were all shot at the same time of day, I’m thinking hypotheticals here, if you actually took those shots morning, noon and at sunset)

I think the reason it looks the best corrected back is just because that white balance setting on the camera happened to expose a little better, maintaining the highlights.

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Actually, there is more detail in the shadows giving the end image more detail. He said the middle was supposed to be the correct white balance.

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poita said:

Okay, knowing that you are using illuminant E as your benchmark light-source makes it a lot easier to correct the results of your routine to the way it would look on film.

I have the characteristics of most common film stocks as well as most studio light sources, so can adjust more readily from the results of your algorithm.

So if I understand correctly, you look for as neutral a scene as possible, and then your algorithm analyses and adjusts the colours in those neutral shots as if they were shot under a theoretical illuminant E light source, and captured onto film that did not add its own colour characteristics.

Then use the offsets calculated on those scenes to calculate the offsets for the rest of the reel?

Yes, that’s exactly how it works. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

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Ok, excellent.

So basically it gets us back to the colours on set, but not necessarily the colours captured on film, or to the original grade.

It does give a great neutral starting point to work from, I am keen to try it out.

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poita said:

Ok, excellent.

So basically it gets us back to the colours on set, but not necessarily the colours captured on film, or to the original grade.

It does give a great neutral starting point to work from, I am keen to try it out.

Well, since you would correct large parts of the reel as a whole, the shot to shot color relationships would remain intact, so unless the original grade had some color bias (even for shots that were originally shot under white light), you should recover the original grade to a good approximation, before it was captured on film, which would then introduce the bias of the film stock.

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DrDre said:

poita said:

Ok, excellent.

So basically it gets us back to the colours on set, but not necessarily the colours captured on film, or to the original grade.

It does give a great neutral starting point to work from, I am keen to try it out.

Well, since you would correct large parts of the reel as a whole, the shot to shot color relationships would remain intact, so unless the original grade had some color bias (even for shots that were originally shot under white light), you should recover the original grade to a good approximation, before it was captured on film, which would then introduce the bias of the film stock.

Yes, very much the description of the colors I want to see. I’m not interested in film bias or bulb tint, I want what was captured on film. The image itself. I think we are close to being able to achieve this. Especially if Poita’s scans are any indication.

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DrDre said:

poita said:

Ok, excellent.

So basically it gets us back to the colours on set, but not necessarily the colours captured on film, or to the original grade.

It does give a great neutral starting point to work from, I am keen to try it out.

Well, since you would correct large parts of the reel as a whole, the shot to shot color relationships would remain intact, so unless the original grade had some color bias (even for shots that were originally shot under white light), you should recover the original grade to a good approximation, before it was captured on film, which would then introduce the bias of the film stock.

Poita and Dr. Dre are finally starting to join forces… my work here is done.

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yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

poita said:

Ok, excellent.

So basically it gets us back to the colours on set, but not necessarily the colours captured on film, or to the original grade.

It does give a great neutral starting point to work from, I am keen to try it out.

Well, since you would correct large parts of the reel as a whole, the shot to shot color relationships would remain intact, so unless the original grade had some color bias (even for shots that were originally shot under white light), you should recover the original grade to a good approximation, before it was captured on film, which would then introduce the bias of the film stock.

Yes, very much the description of the colors I want to see. I’m not interested in film bias or bulb tint, I want what was captured on film. The image itself. I think we are close to being able to achieve this. Especially if Poita’s scans are any indication.

Well the image is influenced by the biases of a film stock. Kodak’s Vision stocks, for example, are much more saturated and colorful than the older Eastman stocks. Fuji stocks have a green-ish haze to them. So the image “itself” that was “captured on film” is very much influenced by the filmstock used. Film isn’t neutral.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Mavimao said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

poita said:

Ok, excellent.

So basically it gets us back to the colours on set, but not necessarily the colours captured on film, or to the original grade.

It does give a great neutral starting point to work from, I am keen to try it out.

Well, since you would correct large parts of the reel as a whole, the shot to shot color relationships would remain intact, so unless the original grade had some color bias (even for shots that were originally shot under white light), you should recover the original grade to a good approximation, before it was captured on film, which would then introduce the bias of the film stock.

Yes, very much the description of the colors I want to see. I’m not interested in film bias or bulb tint, I want what was captured on film. The image itself. I think we are close to being able to achieve this. Especially if Poita’s scans are any indication.

Well the image is influenced by the biases of a film stock. Kodak’s Vision stocks, for example, are much more saturated and colorful than the older Eastman stocks. Fuji stocks have a green-ish haze to them. So the image “itself” that was “captured on film” is very much influenced by the filmstock used. Film isn’t neutral.

This is true, but the film stock bias is easy to add, if you know the bias, assuming they didn’t correct for it while grading the film. So, this remains an uncertainty. Barring that, the color grading essentialy is represented by the color relationships between the various shots, which is maintained with this method.

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Mavimao said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

poita said:

Ok, excellent.

So basically it gets us back to the colours on set, but not necessarily the colours captured on film, or to the original grade.

It does give a great neutral starting point to work from, I am keen to try it out.

Well, since you would correct large parts of the reel as a whole, the shot to shot color relationships would remain intact, so unless the original grade had some color bias (even for shots that were originally shot under white light), you should recover the original grade to a good approximation, before it was captured on film, which would then introduce the bias of the film stock.

Yes, very much the description of the colors I want to see. I’m not interested in film bias or bulb tint, I want what was captured on film. The image itself. I think we are close to being able to achieve this. Especially if Poita’s scans are any indication.

Well the image is influenced by the biases of a film stock. Kodak’s Vision stocks, for example, are much more saturated and colorful than the older Eastman stocks. Fuji stocks have a green-ish haze to them. So the image “itself” that was “captured on film” is very much influenced by the filmstock used. Film isn’t neutral.

And then you have to ask which film stock. The o-neg, the IP, the IN, the print, the doup print, etc. But I think DrDre’s algorithm takes a lot of that into account to get to the root colors.

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…and let’s not forget the reality that print colors change during print runs as the print matrix starts to wear. So, the one print would look different from the next, even for the same print stock.

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I didn’t explain myself properly, I was trying to get across that the original colours on set (assuming 5500K lighting) are not necessarily what was captured on film, or intended to be captured, and that what was originally captured on the neg may have very little bearing on what was on the release prints.

Even in the Star Wars days, scenes were colour timed to help tell the story, so what the set looked like lit with 5500K lights may have little to do with what is delivered to the audience.

This video gives an example, the opening shot is relatively neutral, but what is delivered to the audience will be very different depending on the story being told by the scene. Although the scene may have been shot under neutral lighting, it may not be intended to look that way in the final product. (again, this doesn’t change how effective or useful the tool is!)

www.editorslounge.com/special-coloringwithalphadogs/colorstory.htm

This is not to understate the usefulness of DrDre’s amazing tool, it is extremely useful and works very, very well, but a few people seem confused by exactly how it works. It can’t on its own restore a scene to exactly how it looked in the cinema, especially if there are no neutral scenes in the reel. If there are neutral scenes, then it will restore them to as if they were shot under (approx) 5500K light, which then adjusts the rest of the scenes and maintain their grade, whether neutral or not. This is its great strength. You then have a start point for doing the final grade which is great.

However, even the most neutral scenes in a film won’t have been lit in such a way that they perfectly matched the Illuminant E lighting used for the calculations, so it becomes a great base for then restoring the grade from that understanding and starting point. It may sound like a quibble or a criticism, but it isn’t, it is just important to understand that restoring to the Illuminant E lighting setup is different to restoring to what was captured on the day. Knowing this lets you use the tool to get to a start point that is consistent that you can then grade the movie from, which is fantastic.

What it does do is incredible, and extremely useful, especially for films where there is partial colour fade, or in the case of Star Wars where they have gone back later and digitally regraded the film, and you want to unearth what the initial grade may have been, and for a multitude of other uses.

I can’t thank DrDre enough for continuing to develop this, it is going to be a mainstay in the toolkit for all of us.

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Thanks for that very insightful explanation, piota! I think it would actually be very interesting to see the process for an example frame of one of the trilogy films, going from the faded print to the final color grading, once you get around to it.

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I’ll record the process for a scene when I get back to the trilogy.

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I haven’t been able to compare these shots yet with Despecialized v2.7, but while working on regrading the bluray I always struggled with C-3PO’s color, which just did not look right. The bluray C-3PO is much too green, and gold is one of those colors that’s difficult to reproduce.

Here are the shots I’m referring to from the automated correction of reel 1 of the Spanish LPP:

I really like these colors, as C-3PO really looks golden.

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DrDre said:

I haven’t been able to compare these shots yet with Despecialized v2.7, but while working on regrading the bluray I always struggled with C-3PO’s color, which just did not look right. The bluray C-3PO is much too green, and gold is one of those colors that’s difficult to reproduce.

Here are the shots I’m referring to from the automated correction of reel 1 of the Spanish LPP:

I really like these colors, as C-3PO really looks golden.

ACHE EEE double EL to the WHY EEE ES!

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From his appearance in the other movies and in various other productions, he isn’t supposed to be gold so much as brass. Gold has a unique tone and C-3PO has always looked more brass (which can look green if it isn’t balanced right).

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yotsuya said:

From his appearance in the other movies and in various other productions, he isn’t supposed to be gold so much as brass. Gold has a unique tone and C-3PO has always looked more brass (which can look green if it isn’t balanced right).

Brass it is!

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3PO may be brass colored in reality, but was he supposed to look that way in the film? They could have timed the colors to make him look more gold, right?

EDIT: By the way, I’m really diggin’ these, Dre. 😄

DrDre said:

I really like these colors, as C-3PO really looks golden.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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Dek Rollins said:

3PO may be brass colored in reality, but was he supposed to look that way in the film? They could have timed the colors to make him look more gold, right?

Before the age of digital intermediates, films were not thoroughly color-timed. The analog process was time consuming: you basically have a guy reading a correction list from the filmmakers, then lining up the shots needed to be re-timed and finally sliding in glass color filters in an optical printer. The process was usually reserved for certain shots to correct white balance (think of correcting the green in florescent lighting) or to create a certain mood (think of the use of blue in Manhunter).

When making movies in an all-film workchain, cinematographers want to make sure the look is as in-camera as possible. This is much more economical.

The question we need to ask is not how C3PO looked in real life, but how the filmmakers knew how he would show up on camera. This is why they would film tests for puppets and makeup - to see how their creations would be interpreted by the film stock.

This is why it is important to take filmstock characteristics into account when doing a restoration. People working on film KNEW how things would look on the screen and adjusted the sets, lights and makeup in order to “compensate” (for lack of a better word). If you don’t do this, you’ll end up seeing the heavy application of rouge on princess Leia and C3PO turning almost green.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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I was basing my comment on not only on what the costume looked like in reality, but in TESB, ROTJ, set photos, publicity shots, The Making of Star Wars, the Holiday Special, ROTS, and pretty much everything I’ve seen in the last 40 years. And that trumpet isn’t very brass colored. Brass is lighter in tone than gold but has a very similar hue. Basically it is brighter and less warm. Except for the opening shots in the JSC, Treepio has been a typical brassy gold in every copy of the trilogy I’ve seen. That has been part of the fun of finding a good pallet, keeping Treepio green enough (just that hint that separates gold from brass) and the skin tones red enough. Also, that last image of his is way higher contrast than the film. That tends to darken and saturate colors rather than reveal their true appearance.