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(Spoilers)How could The Force Awakens have been more original? — Page 13

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 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

You’re right, I don’t understand your argument.

I don’t want Kylo to be less original. I like his character the way he is. But, as a viewer, I didn’t find him as an actual threat to the main characters, which makes him a weak MAIN villian. Making one of the other villains (Hux or Snork) the main villian of TFA, could’ve improved the movie, because they both seem to be more experienced and controlled than Kylo. This could’ve also potentially made the movie more original by having a different kind of main villan (especially Hux, since there never was a MAIN military villain in both trilogies, one directly acts against the main characters).

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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John Doom said:
He didn’t say “If you’re wrong you’re fucked” either, so it’s the same.

He didn’t really need to. “This had better work” or even your parents saying something like “You better not act up in school” is what we call an implied threat.

You were projecting too with TPM, since you said earlier you knew Obi-wan was going to kill Maul. What if he didn’t and he just escaped?

For one I said it that he would beat Maul and secondly, it’s a prequel so there’s a certain level of predictability that comes along with it. Furthermore Maul running away is pretty much accepting defeat. No?

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Lord Haseo said:

It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.

No one saw Rey beating Kylo Ren in TFA. Maybe in Episode IX but not in TFA. Absolutely not. If you did; good for you but you’re projecting.

You were projecting too with TPM, since you said earlier you knew Obi-wan was going to kill Maul. What if he didn’t and he just escaped?

For one I said it that he would beat Maul and secondly, it’s a prequel so there’s a certain level of predictability that comes along with it. Furthermore Maul running away is pretty much accepting defeat. No?

He could’ve run away, or could’ve been killed in episode II or III, the same thing we were saying on Kylo, right? Not so specifically predictable as you say.

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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John Doom said:
He could’ve run away, or could’ve been killed in episode II or III, the same thing we were saying on Kylo, right? Not so specifically predictable as you say.

Even so the number of people who thought Maul was going to lose is likely exponentially higher than the people who thought Rey was going to win her first duel with Kylo.

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TV’s Frink said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Dek Rollins said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

So. Much. Quoting.

Quoted. Awaiting next quote.

Seriously? You’re quoting my quote on quotes? All these quotes are totally nonthreatening.

I don’t believe for a second that any of these posts are in danger. And I still won’t believe it after they’re deleted.

Is there an ‘endless quoting’ thread in Off Topic?

-This quote will self destruct whenever the mods say so…-

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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 (Edited)

Dek Rollins said:

TV’s Frink said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Dek Rollins said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

So. Much. Quoting.

Quoted. Awaiting next quote.

Seriously? You’re quoting my quote on quotes? All these quotes are totally nonthreatening.

I don’t believe for a second that any of these posts are in danger. And I still won’t believe it after they’re deleted.

Is there an ‘endless quoting’ thread in Off Topic?

-This quote will self destruct whenever the mods say so…-

QFT

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suspiciouscoffee said:

The “dualism of the Force” is a total accident. Do you honestly think GL even considered anything like that? He just wanted to throw in his Midi-chloriens as random technobabble because it was referenced in an old rough draft. Then, he could further “prove” his “original vision” claims.

I don’t see any reason to doubt it because the PT presents an alternate view of so many things we know from the OT, if it was only that, maybe. But on the whole it is clearly subversive. And it’s well known that George was distancing himself from the simplistic black and white view already by the time of ROTJ with Obi-Wan’s “point of view” speech.

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In ROTJ, the Force was still religion. Making the Force ‘scientific’ is completely unnecessary. Deal with it. The PT is more like, the Farce.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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 (Edited)

Lord Haseo said:
It’s pretty goddamn unreasonable to believe that you can choke someone to death with The Force (even over massive distances) but choke someone to unconsciousness. Also when choking someone they are knocked out and you have to continue the choking before they eventually die.

Choking someone is incredibly unsafe. If you do not have intent to harm you should not choke someone because even if it’s just for “knocking them out” there’s a chance the windpipe will collapse entirely, killing them. That’d look real good on Vader’s monthly review wouldn’t it? No, it makes much more sense for him not to choke Luke at all if he wants him alive.

Regardless, is he able to use choke while fighting? Even as a sword master he has to be very aware of Luke’s every move to keep his defense up. The only times he uses the force in the duel is when he has breathing room from Luke’s attacks. First after knocking him into the carbon pit, and then later when Luke is regaining his composure out of swinging range. There’s no reason to assume he could use the force like that mid-swing like they do in the PT. Luke uses the force once while Vader is busy dealing with steam in his face. The power level of the OT is not in any way comparable to the PT or the EU. It is much more subdued.

George clarifies at one point that the “weight” is a metaphor he used to convey to the actors that there was a lot of energy and power that needed to be controlled. The wild swinging and twirling seen in the PT style duels is a great way to lob an ear off or get a lightsaber through your leg. The more composed two hand styles seen in the OT conveys that these people are fully in control of their weapons. Vader is supposed to be physically very strong and so we see him knocking Luke off balance with one hand, and occasionally taking one handed swings while still controlling his weapon safely.

The point is not that some magic decree from heaven says lightsabers can only be held two handed. It’s that a lot of power is needed to control it properly, and for the most part that means two hands and a proper stance.

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BmB said:

Lord Haseo said:
It’s pretty goddamn unreasonable to believe that you can choke someone to death with The Force (even over massive distances) but choke someone to unconsciousness. Also when choking someone they are knocked out and you have to continue the choking before they eventually die.

Choking someone is incredibly unsafe. If you do not have intent to harm you should not choke someone because even if it’s just for “knocking them out” there’s a chance the windpipe will collapse entirely, killing them. That’d look real good on Vader’s monthly review wouldn’t it? No, it makes much more sense for him not to choke Luke at all if he wants him alive.

While choking is unsafe the odds are due to his skill with Force Choke he wouldn’t have crushed the windpipe. Maybe Anakin in ROTS would but not this version of Darth Vader.

What about the other solution though? Why couldn’t Vader just pick him up with The Force, hold him down in the Carbonite chamber and turn the thing on?

Regardless, is he able to use choke while fighting?

Seeing as how he was able to fight while throwing stuff at Luke…yeah I think he would be able to do that.

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BmB said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

The “dualism of the Force” is a total accident. Do you honestly think GL even considered anything like that? He just wanted to throw in his Midi-chloriens as random technobabble because it was referenced in an old rough draft. Then, he could further “prove” his “original vision” claims.

I don’t see any reason to doubt it because the PT presents an alternate view of so many things we know from the OT, if it was only that, maybe. But on the whole it is clearly subversive. And it’s well known that George was distancing himself from the simplistic black and white view already by the time of ROTJ with Obi-Wan’s “point of view” speech.

No, that speech was there to try to hide the fact that George didn’t plan ahead at all, regardless of what he claims.

.

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Lord Haseo said:
What about the other solution though? Why couldn’t Vader just pick him up with The Force, hold him down in the Carbonite chamber and turn the thing on?

The first time we see the force being used to telekinetically manipulate living beings is Maul’s force push at the end of TPM. In traditional eastern chi theory it is very difficult to overcome to chi of another being to use chi on them as such. Since the force is based on these teachings I don’t think it’s unreasonable to extend the same principle. Lifting other people and throwing them about is an EU-only phenomena. Even Maul was only able to throw Obi-Wan off-balance. Force choke is fairly low level of invasion, only manipulating the throat.

Lord Haseo said:
Seeing as how he was able to fight while throwing stuff at Luke…yeah I think he would be able to do that.

He wasn’t fighting. He even lowered his lightsabre to focus on throwing things at Luke. They weren’t even within striking distance. The first throw was during a clash where he only had to focus on keep Luke’s sabre down. It’s clearly something he had to divert his attention to.

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BmB said:
The first time we see the force being used to telekinetically manipulate living beings is Maul’s force push at the end of TPM. In traditional eastern chi theory it is very difficult to overcome to chi of another being to use chi on them as such. Since the force is based on these teachings I don’t think it’s unreasonable to extend the same principle. Lifting other people and throwing them about is an EU-only phenomena. Even Maul was only able to throw Obi-Wan off-balance. Force choke is fairly low level of invasion, only manipulating the throat.

Well if Vader could manipulate inanimate objects then it is logical to conclude that he could do it to a living being. There’s nothing much that differentiates them; it’s just mass you know.

He wasn’t fighting. He even lowered his lightsabre to focus on throwing things at Luke. They weren’t even within striking distance. The first throw was during a clash where he only had to focus on keep Luke’s sabre down. It’s clearly something he had to divert his attention to.

Sure about that?

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 (Edited)

He was saying that Vader wasn’t actively fighting when he threw the objects at luke, and he’s correct. Vader was either simply holding his saber down, or was holding a block.

EDIT: I really hate defending this guys arguments, but his description of Vader’s action was correct.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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Lord Haseo said:
Well if Vader could manipulate inanimate objects then it is logical to conclude that he could do it to a living being. There’s nothing much that differentiates them; it’s just mass you know.

“Luminous beings are we.”

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 (Edited)

BmB said:

Lord Haseo said:
Well if Vader could manipulate inanimate objects then it is logical to conclude that he could do it to a living being. There’s nothing much that differentiates them; it’s just mass you know.

“Luminous beings are we.”

“Luminous beings” still have mass and it doesn’t negate the effect other forces have on it.

Dek Rollins said:

He was saying that Vader wasn’t actively fighting when he threw the objects at luke, and he’s correct. Vader was either simply holding his saber down, or was holding a block.

A saber lock is still fighting as both people are trying to gain leverage. They’re still technically fighting.

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Lord Haseo said:

Dek Rollins said:

He was saying that Vader wasn’t actively fighting when he threw the objects at luke, and he’s correct. Vader was either simply holding his saber down, or was holding a block.

A saber lock is still fighting as both people are trying to gain leverage. They’re still technically fighting.

I get that, I was just saying that the facts he stated about Vader’s movements were true.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

Author
Time

Dek Rollins said:

Lord Haseo said:

Dek Rollins said:

He was saying that Vader wasn’t actively fighting when he threw the objects at luke, and he’s correct. Vader was either simply holding his saber down, or was holding a block.

A saber lock is still fighting as both people are trying to gain leverage. They’re still technically fighting.

I get that, I was just saying that the facts he stated about Vader’s movements were true.

I was actually referring to the saber lock but he was right about the part in which Vader lowered his blade when he hurled another object at Luke.

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 (Edited)

What if Starkiller Base were instead just a planet hiding a (main?) FO military base? This is where the rest of the map is stored (and where Rey was taken), so Han and Finn get into the base to steal it, while the Resistence’s pilots lure the enemy away for as long as possible. No need for another Death Star anymore!

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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Get rid of the Death Star and don’t make the original heroes incompetents who let their child/student turn into the next Darth Vader. If anyone would have been wary of this type of thing, it would have been Leia, Han, and Luke.

Whatever antagonists that showed up should have come out of left field for the heroes. Not been one of their own that they nurtured.

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I am going to repost part of my thoughts, for what it’s worth, from the review thread.

The Starkiller base should have been a fake, with the real weapon of the First Order being a mind, a military genius. I would rather have seen something along the lines of Germany invading France in World War II where the French were still looking at warfare from a First World War perspective and invested heavily in stationary defenses at the Maginot Line. The New Republic could have same mindset seeing the First Order as the same as the Empire, building their own superweapon or similar defensive strategy only to be turned on them to destroy the new capital. They would lead the Resistance away to attack the Starkiller base, which would be a ruse only to lead to a sneak attack by the First Order on the new capital. That general idea anyway.