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A villain is not believable because he’s evil but not threatening? He’s not threatening because he doesn’t kill in combat?
This discussion is ridiculous.
(Spoilers)How could The Force Awakens have been more original? — Page 12
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Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\
Isn’t this exactly what a villain would do?
Nah. Villains only follow one mode of being evil. Any other path is not threatening and and is boring.
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I guess you forgot about Lor San Tekka, who he killed right at the beginning of the film.
Another unarmed man, old too.
So, because he was unarmed, this made him a useless villain and not threatening?
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I guess I did, but they were referring to Han specifically. Either way, that whole opening piece of the film put me off from the start. (Well, after the crawl went by and an actual scene started, I mean)
Seriously? The opening scene was my one of my favorite parts of the whole movie.
.
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I guess I did, but they were referring to Han specifically. Either way, that whole opening piece of the film put me off from the start. (Well, after the crawl went by and an actual scene started, I mean)
Seriously? The opening scene was my one of my favorite parts of the whole movie.
Even people I’ve spoken to who hate the film more than life itself gave at least the opening scene props.
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I meant Vader picking him up (or what Vader actually did to make Luke fall into the chamber in ESB), holding him down with The Force and turning on the Carbonite chamber.
Not if it was just a test. If it wasn’t a test, then of course I guess he could’ve done that, though there’s the old debacle on whether the Force can be used to hold living being, but let’s not go into that.
Well you said lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands while that wasn’t the fact in the PT. But in ESB Vader has no problem using Makashi and for all intents and purposes Luke is trying his best. Or at least trying at any rate.
:\ Don’t twist my words, now: they had to to fully utilize them, because, according to Hamill, it was supposed to be pretty heavy. Since Vader is just playing with him and not using his full strength, he can handle it with just one hand.
Tarkin does respect him
Tarkin respects him and thinks of him as a friend but he tells him to stop choking that Imperial Officer and he tells Vader his plan of bugging the Falcon had better work. To which Vader had no response too. Hux would never say something like that in TFA even if he did outrank him.
He tells him to stop him out of fear the situation could degenerate. About his plan, Tarkin was just confiding his fears to him. He trusts him so much, he doesn’t react either to Vader’s claim that Leia would’ve never betrayed the Rebellion.
Leia fears him
“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader’s leash” - Leia
😄 I knew you would’ve brought this one. She’s taunting Tarkin, not Vader. She never harrasses Vader and definitely fears him after she’s be captured, especially (of course) during her torture.
Rey on the other hand calls Kylo a creature in a mask and a monster. Quite a difference. No?
Nope 😄
I didn’t say anything about Vader in ESB or ROTJ in that segment though. In ESB he is a monumentally better villain and character; this I will not deny and in ROTJ he was still a main villain but was still subservient to Palpatine like Kylo is to Supreme Leader Snoke. I won’t hold that against either of them.
Weren’t you talking about Vader being under Palpatine? I thought you referred to him as in TESB and ROTJ, because he’s nowhere to be seen in ANH, and he wasn’t his master according to that movie, just the Emperor.
Poe is not “promptly mind raped”, he’s just brought away after an embarassing silence. He’s tortured later in the movie, because that’s Kylo’s mission, not as a rection against his taunt.
I was talking about his interrogation scene. […]
Kylo Ren: I had no idea we had the best pilot in the Resistance on board. Comfortable?
Poe: Not really
Kylo Ren: I’m impressed. No one has been able to get out of you what you did with the map.
Poe: Might wanna rethink your technique.
Kylo starts his mind probing
Kylo Ren: Where is it?
Poe: The Resistance will not be intimidated by you.
Kylo Ren: Where is it?
*Poe starts to scream and Kylo tells Hux about the information being in a BB Unit.
As I said, he wasn’t “promptly mind raped” for his taunts during his torture, unlike you said. Kylo didn’t react agressivily against one of his taunts, he was being insistent/threatening because that was his mission. Could it actually be he likes to be taunted? 😄
John Doom said:
Vile, but not threatening.Tell that to Finn, Rey and Poe Dameron. Also you could tell it to the Han and Lors but they’re dead. Or even the First Order officer that told him about Finn, Rey and BB-8 escaping Jakku but there’s a possibility he’s dead too.
Tell it to the viewers. Threatening to the viewers, so they can care for the main characters, that’s my point :\
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
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I guess you forgot about Lor San Tekka, who he killed right at the beginning of the film.
Another unarmed man, old too.
So, because he was unarmed, this made him a useless villain and not threatening?
How about we add this, this and this? Does Kylo do enough of this? That’s a constant threat, to me.
A villain is not believable because he’s evil but not threatening? He’s not threatening because he doesn’t kill in combat?
This discussion is ridiculous.
It all comes down to whether “acting evil” adds tension and makes you care for the characters more. If it makes you think “He’s strong, I hope the main characters won’t have to face him”, than it’s good.
Qui-gon’s first duel against Maul, for example, was a successful way to make his character an actual threat to the viewers, as well as Obi-wan, Luke’s master, being killed by Vader in a one-on-one duel.
So it was Tarkin’s decision to let the Falcon escape, because it made the viewers think “If it was all just a set up, then they’re still in danger!”
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
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John Doom said:
Not if it was just a test. If it wasn’t a test, then of course I guess he could’ve done that, though there’s the old debacle on whether the Force can be used to hold living being, but let’s not go into that.
And like I said before Vader testing the Carbonite chamber on hand is indicative that freezing Luke was initially his objective until Luke escapes.
Well you said lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands while that wasn’t the fact in the PT. But in ESB Vader has no problem using Makashi and for all intents and purposes Luke is trying his best. Or at least trying at any rate.
:\ Don’t twist my words, now: they had to to fully utilize them, because, according to Hamill, it was supposed to be pretty heavy. Since Vader is just playing with him and not using his full strength, he can handle it with just one hand.
John Doom said:
For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed.
Maybe you didn’t convey exactly what you meant but your words are your words.
Tarkin was just confiding his fears to him.
It came off as a threat.
😄 I knew you would’ve brought this one. She’s taunting Tarkin, not Vader. She never harrasses Vader and definitely fears him after she’s be captured, especially (of course) during her torture.
She’s pretty much calling Vader a lap dog. How is that not insulting him? Also if I’m not mistaken she says this after she’s interrogated.
Nope 😄
If I were a bad guy I would rather be called a creature in a mask or a monster than to be labeled as lap dog any day.
Weren’t you talking about Vader being under Palpatine? I thought you referred to him as in TESB and ROTJ, because he’s nowhere to be seen in ANH, and he wasn’t his master according to that movie, just the Emperor.
Darn, I did at the end of that point but Kylo only takes shit from Snoke and deservedly so while Vader takes crap from Leia and Tarkin.
As I said, he wasn’t “promptly mind raped” for his taunts during his torture, unlike you said. Kylo didn’t react agressivily against one of his taunts, he was being insistent/threatening because that was his mission. Could it actually be he likes to be taunted? 😄
Lord Haseo said:
and tells him the First Order should rethink their technique after his initial interrogation (which was not by Kylo) and is promptly mind raped
Also you can say that him saying the First Order (and him by extension) is a taunt.
Tell it to the viewers. Threatening to the viewers, so they can care for the main characters, that’s my point :\
Well viewers subjected to their own opinions. I have debated with people who say Vader (even in ESB) isn’t a great villain for this or that reason. I’m trying to keep my personal beliefs out of it and talk about what his actions are in the film.
John Doom said:
How about we add this, this and this? Does Kylo do enough of this? That’s a constant threat, to me.
Lets see:
- Kylo killing Lors San Tekka: Beginning of the film
- Kylo stopping Poe’s blaster bolt and putting him in stasis while having a conversation: Beginning of the film
- Kylo tearing information from the mind of Poe: Beginning of the film
- Kylo Ren nonchalantly deflecting Rey’s blaster bolts and putting her in stasis before incapsitating her with an unknown Force Ability: Middle of the film
- Kylo Ren Killing Han in a vile manner: End of the film
- Kylo Ren Force pushing Rey to a tree and knocking her out, decimating Finn in a lightsaber duel and dominating Rey for most of their duel while suffering from a Bowcaster wound and the guilt of killing Han: End of the film
Not that Kylo Ren didn’t have his fair share of failures but both him and Vader both failed at the end when it counted.
EDIT:
Qui-gon’s first duel against Maul, for example, was a successful way to make his character an actual threat to the viewers, as well as Obi-wan, Luke’s master, being killed by Vader in a one-on-one duel.
Qui-Gon was defeated in a heated duel and that was due to Maul’s skill and youth. Obi-Wan literally let Vader kill him. I mean…
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I guess you forgot about Lor San Tekka, who he killed right at the beginning of the film.
Another unarmed man, old too.
So, because he was unarmed, this made him a useless villain and not threatening?
How about we add this, this and this? Does Kylo do enough of this? That’s a constant threat, to me.
Well, for one he isn’t involved in any space battles so #'s 1 & 3 aren’t even a good argument. And if he had been involved in a situation similar to that, then you would have just moaned that it was ripping of ANH anyway. And #2 Vader fights like an old guy against an old guy and kills an old guy that drops his defence, basically unarmed. So Vader kills an unarmed old man and he is threatening, but when Kylo does it then it makes him nonthreatening?
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Tarkin was just confiding his fears to him.
It came off as a threat.
He wasn’t threatening him, but the plan sure was a threat to them both.
She’s pretty much calling Vader a lap dog. How is that not insulting him? Also if I’m not mistaken she says this after she’s interrogated.
Touchè!
Weren’t you talking about Vader being under Palpatine? I thought you referred to him as in TESB and ROTJ, because he’s nowhere to be seen in ANH, and he wasn’t his master according to that movie, just the Emperor.
Darn, I did at the end of that point but Kylo only takes shit from Snoke and deservedly so while Vader takes crap from Leia and Tarkin.
Just by Leia once,
while Kylo takes shit from Snoke, Poe and Hux.
As I said, he wasn’t “promptly mind raped” for his taunts during his torture, unlike you said. Kylo didn’t react agressivily against one of his taunts, he was being insistent/threatening because that was his mission. Could it actually be he likes to be taunted? 😄
Lord Haseo said:
and tells him the First Order should rethink their technique after his initial interrogation (which was not by Kylo) and is promptly mind raped
Yep, he was “mind raped” mostly as part of his (second?) interrogation by Kylo.
Also you can say that him saying the First Order (and him by extension) is a taunt.
Maybe, buy I don’t remember him reacting against it.
Tell it to the viewers. Threatening to the viewers, so they can care for the main characters, that’s my point :\
Well viewers subjected to their own opinions. I have debated with people who say Vader (even in ESB) isn’t a great villain for this or that reason. I’m trying to keep my personal beliefs out of it and talk about what his actions are in the film.
If this is subjective as you say, than there’s no need to discuss it anymore. Tomorrow I’m going to call J.J. and suggest him to write a villain who steals kids’ candies. It’s going to be a masterpiece 😄
Lets see:
[…]
Don’t make me post my list again and make an additional one about Vader in ANH, I’d rather not repeat myself on this. I agree we disagree, ok? 😄
Qui-gon’s first duel against Maul, for example, was a successful way to make his character an actual threat to the viewers, as well as Obi-wan, Luke’s master, being killed by Vader in a one-on-one duel.
Qui-Gon was defeated in a heated duel and that was due to Maul’s skill and youth.
Which made the viewers fear for his life when Maul later reappeared and Qui-gon was forced to fight one-on-one again against him. This is good.
Obi-Wan literally let Vader kill him. I mean…
Whether he did it or not, Luke’s “mighty” master had died by Vader’s hand, and Luke would’ve not been able to complete his training to defeat Vader anymore. It worked.
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
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So, because he was unarmed, this made him a useless villain and not threatening?
How about we add this, this and this? Does Kylo do enough of this? That’s a constant threat, to me.
Well, for one he isn’t involved in any space battles so #'s 1 & 3 aren’t even a good argument. And if he had been involved in a situation similar to that, then you would have just moaned that it was ripping of ANH anyway. And #2 Vader fights like an old guy against an old guy and kills an old guy that drops his defence, basically unarmed. So Vader kills an unarmed old man and he is threatening, but when Kylo does it then it makes him nonthreatening?
It is a good argument for its examples: of course, I didn’t expect Kylo to do the same things, it would’ve been a rip off as you said, I’m just saying you can depict more threatening villains.
Your argument that Obi-wan was unarmed is invalid, it was a fair duel :\
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
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Dek Rollins said:
I’d also like to add that Kylo was pretty much an angsty teen who was proving his loyalty to the gang, and that he’s ‘real bad’, by swiping the Butterfinger from the grocery store. Or, in this case, by murdering his father, with whom he obviously didn’t have a good relationship anyway.Did you just compare a petty crime to patricide? Wow…
I didn’t compare the actions, I compared the characterization of Kylo killing Han to another point of characterization. Kylo wants desperately to be evil (for some reason), so he wants to prove to himself that he can be ‘so bad’, by killing his father. And as I said, I don’t think their relationship stretched that far in the first place (that’s just what I picked up from what we saw/heard in the film).
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
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John Doom said:
He wasn’t threatening him, but the plan sure was a threat to them both.
Technically having the tracking beacon not work was a threat to them all but you’re still rationalizing it with your own feelings though.
Just by Leia once,
while Kylo takes shit from Snoke, Poe and Hux.
Snoke is his Master. Did you see Vader talk back to Palpatine? The answer is no.
Poe cracked a joke. He said nothing even remotely close to an actual insult like Leia did to Vader. And shortly after he got his mind probed by Kylo.
Hux suggested that his personal agenda doesn’t interfere with Snoke’s and was promptly threatened with death should he not get BB-8.
Kylo really only takes shit from Snoke. Vader on the other hand takes shit from Leia and Tarkin.
Don’t make me post my list again and make an additional one about Vader in ANH, I’d rather not repeat myself on this. I agree we disagree, ok? 😄
Adywan already handled that for me. And any list you post doesn’t refute his actions against certain characters in the film regardless of his failures. And like I said both him and Vader both failed in the end.
Which made the viewers fear for his life when Maul later reappeared and Qui-gon was forced to fight one-on-one again against him. This is good.
It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.
Whether he did it or not, Luke’s “mighty” master had died by Vader’s hand, and Luke would’ve not been able to complete his training to defeat Vader anymore. It worked.
Still doesn’t make Vader imposing. He killed an old man who literally gave his life a way. So scary.
EDIT:
Dek Rollins said:
I didn’t compare the actions, I compared the characterization of Kylo killing Han to another point of characterization. Kylo wants desperately to be evil (for some reason), so he wants to prove to himself that he can be ‘so bad’, by killing his father. And as I said, I don’t think their relationship stretched that far in the first place (that’s just what I picked up from what we saw/heard in the film).
Well it came off like you were comparing the actions. And as it pertains to the analogy it’s still apples and oranges no matter how rocky their past relationship was.
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So. Much. Quoting.
.
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Techincally it was a threat to them all but you’re still rationalizing it with your own theories though.
I’m rationalizing using my ears, in both the original and Italian versions: it doesn’t sound like a threat to me. I could say the same for you, since nothing can confirm your theory.
About Kylo and Vader taking shit, no need to repeat ourselves, we’ve already covered this enough.
Which made the viewers fear for his life when Maul later reappeared and Qui-gon was forced to fight one-on-one again against him. This is good.
It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.
We all knew Rey would’ve defeated Kylo, Marty would’ve came back from the future, Indy would’ve find the Arc, Batman would’ve stopped Joker…
Whether he did it or not, Luke’s “mighty” master had died by Vader’s hand, and Luke would’ve not been able to complete his training to defeat Vader anymore. It worked.
Still doesn’t make Vader imposing. He killed an old man who literally gave his life a way. So scary.
If you say so, ok. He literally faces Vader again during the final attack and doesn’t know how to handle him because of this.
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
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Your argument that Obi-wan was unarmed is invalid, it was a fair duel :\
How can it be invalid when Obi-Wan basically stops fighting and just stand there? his weapon is not used in any defensive form so he may as well be unarmed. Vader only killed him when he was defenceless. Not a fair fight at that point at all.
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Your argument that Obi-wan was unarmed is invalid, it was a fair duel :\
How can it be invalid when Obi-Wan basically stops fighting and just stand there?
It’s invalid because we can only criticize TFA and not the OT for the same things.
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So. Much. Quoting.
Quoted. Awaiting next quote.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
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By the way, it’s funny that in a thread about how we could make TFA more original, we have someone (or two people, I can’t keep track with all the quoting) who is arguing that the main villain of TFA should have been less original.
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How can it be invalid when Obi-Wan basically stops fighting and just stand there? his weapon is not used in any defensive form so he may as well be unarmed. Vader only killed him when he was defenceless. Not a fair fight at that point at all.
I see what you meant now. You’re right, sorry.
By the way, it’s funny that in a thread about how we could make TFA more original, we have someone (or two people, I can’t keep track with all the quoting) who is arguing that the main villain of TFA should have been less original.
I think you misunderstood my argument:
[…] Kylo can be a good villain character, but he should’ve not been the main villain. Giving a larger role to one of the other two candidates, could’ve improved TFA and potentially made it more original.
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
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So. Much. Quoting.
Quoted. Awaiting next quote.
Seriously? You’re quoting my quote on quotes? All these quotes are totally nonthreatening.
.
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John Doom said:
I’m rationalizing using my ears, in both the original and Italian versions: it doesn’t sound like a threat to me. I could say the same for you, since nothing can confirm your theory.
Well he didn’t say “Well if you’re wrong we’re fucked” so if taken at face value it’s a threat. And that’s how I’m taking it because there is no bias or interpretation involved.
We all knew Rey would’ve defeated Kylo
No one saw Rey beating Kylo Ren in TFA. Maybe in Episode IX but not in TFA. Absolutely not. If you did; good for you but you’re projecting. Part of the reason a lot of people were pissed at Rey winning is because they thought the duel would play out like Luke vs Vader on Bespin.
If you say so, ok. He literally faces Vader again during the final attack and doesn’t know how to handle him because of this.
He couldn’t do anything just like the other pilots couldn’t because blowing up the Death Star was more important than the individual lives of the pilot.
“Stay on target. Stay on target.”
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By the way, it’s funny that in a thread about how we could make TFA more original, we have someone (or two people, I can’t keep track with all the quoting) who is arguing that the main villain of TFA should have been less original.
I think you misunderstood my argument:
[…] Kylo can be a good villain character, but he should’ve not been the main villain. Giving a larger role to one of the other two candidates, could’ve improved TFA and potentially made it more original.
So the reason he’s not original is because he’s the main villain?
You’re right, I don’t understand your argument.
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John Doom said:
I’m rationalizing using my ears, in both the original and Italian versions: it doesn’t sound like a threat to me. I could say the same for you, since nothing can confirm your theory.Well he didn’t say “Well if you’re wrong we’re fucked” so if taken at face value it’s a threat. And that’s how I’m taking it because there is no bias or interpretation involved.
He didn’t say “If you’re wrong you’re fucked” either, so it’s the same. In the Italian version he does say “Guai se pardiamo il contatto” (“We’re in trouble if we lose the connection”), but since this is not the original version, it can’t be considered a proof.
It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.
No one saw Rey beating Kylo Ren in TFA. Maybe in Episode IX but not in TFA. Absolutely not. If you did; good for you but you’re projecting.
You were projecting too with TPM, since you said earlier you knew Obi-wan was going to kill Maul. What if he didn’t and he just escaped?
He couldn’t do anything just like the other pilots couldn’t because blowing up the Death Star was more important than the individual lives of the pilot.
That’s true, and to this, he was just a common mortal man like the others because Ben couldn’t help him anymore (or so he thought!)
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
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So. Much. Quoting.
Quoted. Awaiting next quote.
Seriously? You’re quoting my quote on quotes? All these quotes are totally nonthreatening.
I don’t believe for a second that any of these posts are in danger. And I still won’t believe it after they’re deleted.