The politics was exactly what gave the prequels depth.
Pools of quicksand have depth, too, but they’re also murky, hard to move through, and potentially hazardous.
Everyone shits on midichlorians but midichlorians are a more scientific aspect of the force. Where the OT presents a purely mystical force.
You make it sound as if that’s a good thing (FYI, it isn’t).
The politics was exactly what gave the prequels depth.
You mean the illusion of depth? Also the politics are so badly written not only does it kill the pacing anyone with a brain in that universe would see after a while that Palpatine was behind everything even before ROTS.
Everyone shits on midichlorians but midichlorians are a more scientific aspect of the force.
There didn’t need to be a scientific aspect to The Force. The Force is just The Force.
Where the OT presents a purely mystical force.
And that’s the way it should have stayed.
The OT has clear cut black and white heroes and villains, the prequels subvert that so it’s difficult to know if anyone is good at all.
Other than Count Dooku who could you say this about?
By cutting straight to the action and only action forever, TFA makes itself extremely shallow. Kylo Ren literally wants to be evil? Puh-lease, even saturday morning cartoon villains have more depth than that.
Not only is he a good person literally willing himself to be evil he is also hell bent on furthering the legacy of his Grandfather. Also there’s more to a character’s depth than his/her motivations.
It’s like a five year olds conception of what grey morality is, just switch black and white around, that’s interesting right? No.
That’s not grey morality at all. If Kylo Ren were doing all this to destroy all Dark Siders in the galaxy then it would be grey. I wouldn’t exactly know what to call what Kylo is doing but it isn’t grey.
I agree that a lot of the political scenes in the prequel trilogy were poorly written. A planet decided to elect a fourteen year old girl as queen? Queens have the power to propose votes of no confidence in the senate? Queens have term limits and become senators?
Lord Haseo said:
Lucas was a pretty good idea man but his ability to execute such things post ROTJ was nil. If anything JJ and Kasdan could have taken a couple of ideas George had and adapted it to Episode VII.But they didn’t. And the result was as you see.
Yes, the result was a great movie 😉
No, the result was a pale pastiche less original than Jurassic World.
That the film had interesting, well rounded characters that the audience can care about was one old idea I didn’t mind seeing rehashing 😄
It wouldn’t have been too hard to have mixed up things a bit more so Rey wasn’t living on Jakkuoine (the concepts of canals of water between the crashed wrecks suggestive of a paradise ruined by a war the locals had nothing to do with adds complexity to the story and the shared universe of these films a missed opportunity).
Having the superweapon either not destroyed or moving the aim of the attack against it to defend the doomed Republic capital would have made what the film does with the story ingredient very different from the other two times one was used. Similarly having the Republic have a Death Star which they are deliberating about using would have been a refreshing change by reversal.
The skies in these films are just not weird enough. One thing I like about The Navigator (1988) is how medieval eyes see modern landscapes as utterly alien. The OT had multiple suns, multiple moons, floating cities, gas giants, metal worlds. Things that make that most ubiquitous of landscape details, the sky, look unique and interesting. In terms of location Coruscant in the PT was an interesting backdrop, sadly to a very dull story. We don’t get much of that in this film.
The characters, good as they are do things we have already seen other characters do, often much better. I think they played too safe with the plot but did well with the characters.
This is why Plinkett is needed.
I watched a lot of Plinkett’s reviews of the prequels. He made a few good points, but I disagreed with him a lot.
I also watched CinemaSins’s youtube videos on the Star Wars prequels. They were just as negative but were higher quality and funnier in my opinion.
Cinema Sins is made purely for entertainment and makes no argument as to what makes their nitpicks real problems. Plinkett actually reviews the films in depth and explains why the prequels fail as films, and then fail as Star Wars. He’s right on both counts. The Plinkett reviews are also designed for entertainment, but remove all of the “Plinkett’s a terrible person” comedy and you’ve got reasonable reviews of some crap films.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
Darth Vader was an epic villain precisely because 1) his prowess in combat was far superior to the protagonist’s, and 2) his internal conflict was hidden until the very end of the trilogy.
Um… who cares? Seriously, why must a villain only be conflicted at the end of his life. Look at Macbeth, the entire story is about his internal conflict.
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Darth Vader was an epic villain precisely because 1) his prowess in combat was far superior to the protagonist’s, and 2) his internal conflict was hidden until the very end of the trilogy.
Um… who cares? Seriously, why must a villain only be conflicted at the end of his life. Look at Macbeth, the entire story is about his internal conflict.
Macbeth was not a villain. He was an antihero.
A morally conflicted antihero can make a compelling protagonist.
And who says that Kylo must be a villain?
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Episode VIII Predictions
The film will open with a battle occurring on an ice world.
The film will cross cut between Rey training with Luke and the other characters navigating an asteroid belt on the way to Cloud City.
Luke tells Rey she is too old to be trained.
Luke will say, “No, I am your father.”
Rey will battle Kylo Ren at the end.
Kylo Ren will cut off Rey’s arm.
Rey’s lightsaber will fall into the depths below.
Episode VIII Predictions
The film will open with a battle occurring on an ice world.
The film will cross cut between Rey training with Luke and the other characters navigating an asteroid belt on the way to Cloud City.
Luke tells Rey she is too old to be trained.
Luke will say, “No, I am your father.”
Rey will battle Kylo Ren at the end.
Kylo Ren will cut off Rey’s arm.
Rey’s lightsaber will fall into the depths below.
Quoted to see if anything of this will even remotely happen.
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Episode VIII Predictions
The film will open with a battle occurring on an ice world.
The film will cross cut between Rey training with Luke and the other characters navigating an asteroid belt on the way to Cloud City.
Luke tells Rey she is too old to be trained.
Luke will say, “No, I am your father.”
Rey will battle Kylo Ren at the end.
Kylo Ren will cut off Rey’s arm.
Rey’s lightsaber will fall into the depths below.
This is really pushing the whole satire thing a bit too far…
And who says that Kylo must be a villain?
He’s more or less a villain in training. Literally.
And who says that Kylo must be a villain?
The story structure, the music, the black costume, the mask, the red lightsaber.
So you’re saying having someone appearing as a villain, but then turning out to be a complex character is bad, because it has never happened in a Star Wars movie before, but at the same time the major flaw of TFA is to be unoriginal?
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Ironically a lot of people wanted Vader 2.0 but didn’t at the same time. They wanted a calm, mature and menacing master of the Dark Side but they didn’t want Vader. That would be a rehash 😉
Scott109 is really upping the entertainment here lately.
By cutting straight to the action and only action forever, TFA makes itself extremely shallow.
I think you may have actually not seen the movie.
Ironically a lot of people wanted Vader 2.0 but didn’t at the same time. They wanted a calm, mature and menacing master of the Dark Side but they didn’t want Vader. That would be a rehash 😉
My problem with it, is that this way we got no actual threat to the main characters, making TFA very boring to me. I would’ve not minded another villain besides him, an actual threat. Giving a more important role to that FO-commander-guy or Snorke, would’ve probably been enough to fix this.
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
Ironically a lot of people wanted Vader 2.0 but didn’t at the same time. They wanted a calm, mature and menacing master of the Dark Side but they didn’t want Vader. That would be a rehash 😉
My problem with it, is that this way we got no actual threat to the main characters, making TFA very boring to me. I would’ve not minded another villain beside him, an actual threat. Giving a more important role to that FO-commander-guy or Snorke, would’ve probably been enough to fix this.
I admit that’s a decent point and that’s why they should have had the Knights of Ren play a major role in the plot instead of just setting them up for future films. This way we can still have Kylo be the Anti Luke Skywalker.
But when I think of it is Kylo Ren really not a threat? I mean as it pertains to what he does to the main characters he sucked information out of Poe’s head which lead the First Order to know that the map was in BB-8, he captured Rey, utterly decimated Finn and dominated Rey for a majority of their duel. The latter two feats were done where his abilities were hampered due to a multitude of extenuating circumstances.
EDIT:
Also he kills Han in the cruelest way possible. Just thought I should throw that out there.
But unfortunately not enough to be a threat. In fact:
-he fails to retrieve vital informations from Poe;
-he can’t take control of the situation;
-he has to rely on his supposed Master;
-that FO-guy doesn’t respect his authority and is in no way scared of him;
-he’s deep inside conflicted;
-he looks visibly scared for his failures;
-he doesn’t extort any information from Ray, who even menages to escape under his nose;
-he’s wounded by Chewie;
-he’s wounded by Finn, a generic ex-FO soldier;
I’m not saying he should’ve been able to do everything above, but he wasn’t an enough threat to be considered a proper villain, a reason to worry for the main charcters’ life :\
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
What information does he not get? If I remember correctly, Poe didn’t look at the map before giving it to the droid, so all information he could give Kylo was where the map was.
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John Doom said:
-he fails to retrieve vital informations from Poe;
No…he did get the information that the map is in a BB unit from Poe. I think you meant Rey and if so then you’re right.
-he can’t take control of the situation;
Exactly what situation are you referring to.
-he has to rely on his supposed Master;
Well he hasn’t completed his training so of course he would seek guidance when faced with failure.
-that FO-guy doesn’t respect his authority and is in no way scared of him;
HUX: Careful, Ren, that your personal interest does not interfere with orders from Leader Snoke.
KYLO REN: I want, that map. For your sake, I suggest you get it.
Hux doesn’t say shit after this.
-he’s deep inside conflicted;
So? Vader had conflict as well and unlike Vader when Kylo is presented with a chance to do something decent he chooses the darkness.
-he looks visibly scared for his failures;
I wonder how Vader looked underneath the mask when Luke defeated him. I’m sure he didn’t have a blank face. The only thing we see of Vader is his hand is stretched towards Luke…as if he’s asking for mercy.
-he doesn’t exort any information from Ray, who even menages to escape under his nose;
Technically it was the Storm Troopers fault she escaped but whatever.
-he’s wounded by Chewie;
Yeah, he just killed his father. He was swept up in the moment and didn’t mind his surroundings. Something that Vader wouldn’t do but then again Vader has a shitload more experience and training than Kylo does.
-he’s wounded by Finn, a generic ex-FO soldier;
Actually Finn was at the top of his class but that injury was due in part to the bow caster wound but more so to his arrogance. Within 8 seconds he could have killed Finn but chose to prolong the fight and in turn he was injured.
and if Kylo had not been so pompous in his abilities he would have fled and initiated a conflict when his abilities weren’t hampered.
I’m not saying he should’ve been able to do everything above, but he wasn’t an enough threat to be considered a proper villain, a reason to worry for the main charcter’s life :\
Well considering that he’s not supposed to be a fully realized villain yet (Like Luke wasn’t supposed to be a fully realized hero in SW or ESB) he did surprisingly well especially given his lack of training and experience when compared to Vader.
What information does he not get? If I remember correctly, Poe didn’t look at the map before giving it to the droid, so all information he could give Kylo was where the map was.
Scratch that, I thought he got to knew about BB-8 in another way 😄
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
I actually enjoyed the prequels in spite of Jar Jar’s annoying presence and Anakin’s unlikability. At least the prequels were original even if the execution was wanting in many respects.
Oh, they really are not original. In a thread you started in which you defend how AOTC is a good film , how can you NOT see that its is basically the plot of ESB jumbled around, yet slate TFA for being unoriginal? TPM was basically ANH with parts of ROTJ thrown in too.
Everyone shits on midichlorians but midichlorians are a more scientific aspect of the force. Where the OT presents a purely mystical force.
And this is why the prequels failed. Star Wars was a fantasy film. He developed midichlorians in a very early draft when it was more science fiction, but throw them out when it became more about myth and fantasy. The second he resurrected them as a way to try and explain the force, he threw the fantasy element out of the window.
John Doom said:
-he can’t take control of the situation;Exactly what situation are you referring to.
Whenever he loses his mind, when can’t stand facing Ray or his father, when he needs to rely on his Master.
-he has to rely on his supposed Master;
Well he hasn’t completed his training so of course he would seek guidance when faced with failure.
Sure, but it doesn’t help that, together with everything else I said, makes him less and less of a threat.
-that FO-guy doesn’t respect his authority and is in no way scared of him;
HUX: Careful, Ren, that your personal interest does not interfere with orders from Supreme Leader Snoke.
KYLO REN: I want, that map. For your sake, I suggest you get it.Hux doesn’t say shit after this.
It’s enough already, but there’s also that (only?) other scene where they meet again before Snork and he looks amused to see him hopeless for his failure.
-he’s deep inside conflicted;
So? Vader had conflict as well and unlike Vader when Kylo is presented with a chance to do something decent he chooses the darkness.
Vader looks conflicted only in ROTJ, when the main villain is now the Emperor. Combined with everything above, this further makes kylo less of a threat.
-he looks visibly scared for his failures;
I wonder how Vader looked underneath the mask when Luke defeated him. I’m sure he didn’t have a blank face. The only thing we see of Vader is his hand is stretched towards Luke…as if he’s asking for mercy.
Never being able to see him scared was what made him, even if apparently, more menacing.
-he doesn’t exort any information from Ray, who even menages to escape under his nose;
Technically it was the Storm Troopers fault she escaped but whatever.
I know this, but I think he should’ve been under his authority, which would make him responsible for the way her custody was set and handled. Or maybe not, maybe I’m wrong on that 😄 He did go insane after finding out she escaped.
-he’s wounded by Chewie;
Yeah, he just killed his father. He was swept up in the moment and didn’t mind his surroundings. Something that Vader wouldn’t do but then again Vader has a shitload more experience and training that Kylo does.
Why do you keep saying Kylo has less experience? I know this, but it’s things like this that lessens his role as the main villain.
-he’s wounded by Finn, a generic ex-FO soldier;
Actually Finn was at the top of his class but that injury was due in part to the bow caster wound but more so to his arrogance. Within 8 seconds he could have killed Finn but chose to prolong the fight and in turn he was injured.
and if Kylo had not been so pompous in his abilities he would have fled and initiated a conflict when his abilities weren’t hampered.
Finn was also a janitor on his first battle 😄
In the end, even if Finn was a trained soldier, he still should’ve not been able to even injury the same guy who was able to freeze Poe with a single hand. Call it being reckless, it further lessens his role as the main villian.
I’m not saying he should’ve been able to do everything above, but he wasn’t an enough threat to be considered a proper villain, a reason to worry for the main charcter’s life :\
Well considering that he’s not supposed to be a fully realized villain yet (Like Luke wasn’t supposed to be a fully realized hero in SW or ESB) he did surprisingly well especially given his lack of training and experience when compared to Vader.
It doesn’t matter, he just doesn’t work as the main villain, because he’s not an actual threat to the main characters. As I said, I’m ok with him the way he is, but somone else should’ve played the role of the main villain, someone who could be seen as an actual threat.
I forgot to mention that even Poe doesn’t get him seriously. I know, “Leia and Tarkin” and so on (we already discussed this one in another thread), but add this to everything I said above, and you get the picture.
The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201
John Doom said:
-he can’t take control of the situation;Exactly what situation are you referring to.
Whenever he loses his mind, when can’t stand facing Ray or his father, when he needs to rely on his Master.
The only one of those that reflects on him not being able to control a situation is when he asked for guidance from Snoke.
Sure, but it doesn’t help that, together with everything else I said, makes him less and less of a threat.
To Rey maybe. But to Poe and Finn he’s a legitimate threat.
It’s enough already, but there’s also that (only?) other scene where they meet again before Snork and he looks amused to see him hopeless for his failure.
Yeah, Hux chose a time in which Snoke was present to say that Kylo Ren screwed up by calling off the search for BB-8.
Vader looks conflicted only in ROTJ, when the main villain is now the Emperor. Combined with everything above, this further makes kylo less of a threat.
But Vader is still a main villain. A villain who was the main baddie for 2/3 of the trilogy. That doesn’t diminish the fact that they both have conflict.
Never being able to see him scared was what made him, even if apparently, more menacing.
That’s good and all but he still seemed scared with the mask on when he was defeated by Luke.
I know this, but I think he should’ve been under his authority, which would make him responsible for the way her custody was set and handled. Or maybe not, maybe I’m wrong on that 😄 He did go insane after finding out she escaped.
Whether it was his fault or not he still would have probably flipped out.
Why do you keep saying Kylo has less experience? I know this, but it’s things like this that lessens his role as the main villain.
I keep on saying this is because people are trying to equate him to Vader when the character was literally designed NOT to be a fully realized villain. I’m pretty sure people didn’t say Luke didn’t/would never work as a hero because of his failures in ESB so people chastising Kylo is a bit hypocritical.
Finn was also a janitor on his first battle 😄
In the end, even if Finn was a trained soldier, he still should’ve not been able to even injury the same guy who was able to freeze Poe with a single hand. Call it being reckless, it further lessens his role as the main villian.
Well bringing it back to ESB Luke had absolutely no training in the art of lightsaber combat (which is completely separate from Force training) and was still able to land a strike on one of the best Duelists in Star Wars history. So Finn landing a hit on and injured, pompous and not fully trained Dark Side warrior isn’t a huge stretch.
It doesn’t matter, he just doesn’t work as the main villain. As I said, I’m ok with him the way he is, but somone else should’ve played the role of the main villain, someone who could be seen as an actual threat.
If so Luke didn’t work as a hero in ESB.
I forgot to mention that even Poe doesn’t get him seriously. I know, “Leia and Tarkin” and so on (we already discussed this one in another thread), but add this to everything I said above, and you get the picture.
Well thanks for making my rebuttal for me lol