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(Spoilers)How could The Force Awakens have been more original? — Page 8

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BmB said:

Abrams raped my childhood.

Oh go crawl back under whatever shitty rock you came out from.

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Also, midichlorians were introduced in 1978.

Citation needed

Yes please.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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I would like to see Lucas’ story just out of morbid curiosity. Something akin to the comic a few years ago based on the rough drafts for The Star Wars. Definitely not a movie, though. That time has long passed.

.

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BillionaireHobo287 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

BillionaireHobo287 said:

Kylo Ren, while his story is very similar to Darth Vader’s, is one of the greatest villains of all time and the best Star Wars villain.

Urge to drink … rising.

To be fair, I would’ve said that Kylo was the second best Star Wars villain if the prequels didn’t thoroughly ruin Vader.

Some other tips :

  1. Avoid politics. The original Star Wars wasn’t really WW2 in space. The Empire was just based on the Nazis but also the British during the American Revolution (why all the grey shirts have British accents). Star Wars is more like the American Revolution in space not WW2 and this isn’t explained through dialogue. We know this from the very first shot of the original Star Wars. Keep the politics simple and visual. You didn’t hear any talk of space taxes in the original trilogy.

  2. Sadly, the prequels are still canon. Any Jedi character more skilled than a Padawan is probably going to be an emotionless robot IF there is a Jedi Order. It doesn’t even make sense that there would be a succesful Jedi Order since Luke did not finish his training even after Return of the Jedi. Work around the prequels.

I actually enjoyed the prequels in spite of Jar Jar’s annoying presence and Anakin’s unlikability. At least the prequels were original even if the execution was wanting in many respects.

I am still surprised that you prefer Kylo Ren to Darth Vader. Kylo Ren is essentially the bipolar Anakin Skywalker from Attack of the Clones only less skilled in combat.

At least when Anakin complained about Obi-Wan and lashed out in anger after his mother’s death I could understand the source of his anger and empathize with him.

After Anakin’s transformation to the dark side, he massacred children in a heartbeat - no questions asked. Kylo Ren struggles to be evil. He is the weakest villain in the history of weak villains. Rey utterly defeats him the first time she wields a lightsaber. Compare this to Darth Vader defeating his own son and cutting off his hand in The Empire Strikes Back.

Any of the villains from Prequel Trilogy - Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Jango Fett, General Grievous, Darth Vader, or even the Neimoidians - would be more menacing than Kylo Ren.

Kylo Ren is a bipolar emo goth copycat killer with granddaddy issues who wears a mask for funsies. He is the weakest villain of any story from any culture in the history of literature.

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John Doom said:

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
I see what you mean. If conflicts are an asset in SW to you

I’m sure it’s an asset to every one. It’s called Star Wars for a reason you know.

😄 that’s true, but let’s not jump to conclusions: I’m not the only one who suggested this idea, and there are also other people who liked it, so there are definitely people who don’t think full intergalactic conflicts in SW are a given.

with different kind of conflicts and enemies

What types of new enemies would you have in mind? I’ve been toying with an idea of having all of the non Force Sensitives hunt down those who use The Force because the galaxy is tired of the wars they bring upon them.

I simply meant changing the empire with stuff typical of the Cold War imaginary (ideologies, spies, information control, rogues).
I like your idea a lot too, which also reminds me a bit of KOTOR2. Imagine the main characters/viewers being initially told the Force Sensitives are the plague which once brought war in the galaxy: it could’ve led to a very interesting and original plot 😉

I like it. Instead of Jedi vs. Sith, it would be Force-Sensatives vs. Non-Force-Sensatives. That is actually original.

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Scott109 said:

BillionaireHobo287 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

BillionaireHobo287 said:

Kylo Ren, while his story is very similar to Darth Vader’s, is one of the greatest villains of all time and the best Star Wars villain.

Urge to drink … rising.

To be fair, I would’ve said that Kylo was the second best Star Wars villain if the prequels didn’t thoroughly ruin Vader.

Some other tips :

  1. Avoid politics. The original Star Wars wasn’t really WW2 in space. The Empire was just based on the Nazis but also the British during the American Revolution (why all the grey shirts have British accents). Star Wars is more like the American Revolution in space not WW2 and this isn’t explained through dialogue. We know this from the very first shot of the original Star Wars. Keep the politics simple and visual. You didn’t hear any talk of space taxes in the original trilogy.

  2. Sadly, the prequels are still canon. Any Jedi character more skilled than a Padawan is probably going to be an emotionless robot IF there is a Jedi Order. It doesn’t even make sense that there would be a succesful Jedi Order since Luke did not finish his training even after Return of the Jedi. Work around the prequels.

I actually enjoyed the prequels in spite of Jar Jar’s annoying presence and Anakin’s unlikability. At least the prequels were original even if the execution was wanting in many respects.

A crap sandwich would be fairly original but it’s still a crap sandwich.

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 (Edited)

Scott109 said:
Kylo Ren is essentially the bipolar Anakin Skywalker from Attack of the Clones only less skilled in combat.

They’re actually pretty much on par with each other though we haven’t seen Kylo Ren engage someone in a serious lightsaber duel without being seriously injured.

The rest of your post is a bunch of meme filled hyperbolic garbage though.

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Scott109 said:
I like it. Instead of Jedi vs. Sith, it would be Force-Sensatives vs. Non-Force-Sensatives. That is actually original.

Why are you quoting his post and not mine? I came up with that idea dammit lol

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Lord Haseo said:

As far as depth goes it’s a bit deeper than STAR WARS was. Especially when it comes to the villain aspect of the films.

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.

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Scott109 said:

Lord Haseo said:

As far as depth goes it’s a bit deeper than STAR WARS was. Especially when it comes to the villain aspect of the films.

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Care to form a rebuttal or?

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TV’s Frink said:

Scott109 said:

BillionaireHobo287 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

BillionaireHobo287 said:

Kylo Ren, while his story is very similar to Darth Vader’s, is one of the greatest villains of all time and the best Star Wars villain.

Urge to drink … rising.

To be fair, I would’ve said that Kylo was the second best Star Wars villain if the prequels didn’t thoroughly ruin Vader.

Some other tips :

  1. Avoid politics. The original Star Wars wasn’t really WW2 in space. The Empire was just based on the Nazis but also the British during the American Revolution (why all the grey shirts have British accents). Star Wars is more like the American Revolution in space not WW2 and this isn’t explained through dialogue. We know this from the very first shot of the original Star Wars. Keep the politics simple and visual. You didn’t hear any talk of space taxes in the original trilogy.

  2. Sadly, the prequels are still canon. Any Jedi character more skilled than a Padawan is probably going to be an emotionless robot IF there is a Jedi Order. It doesn’t even make sense that there would be a succesful Jedi Order since Luke did not finish his training even after Return of the Jedi. Work around the prequels.

I actually enjoyed the prequels in spite of Jar Jar’s annoying presence and Anakin’s unlikability. At least the prequels were original even if the execution was wanting in many respects.

A crap sandwich would be fairly original but it’s still a crap sandwich.

I disagree with your comparison. Other than one character and a few scenes of poor dialogue, the Star Wars prequels are actually great films. They are precious gemstones hidden in layers of rock and tainted with minor impurities, but they are precious gemstones nonetheless.

The Force Awakens is a crap sandwich.

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 (Edited)

Lord Haseo said:

Scott109 said:

Lord Haseo said:

As far as depth goes it’s a bit deeper than STAR WARS was. Especially when it comes to the villain aspect of the films.

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Care to form a rebuttal or?

Darth Vader was an epic villain precisely because 1) his prowess in combat was far superior to the protagonist’s, and 2) his internal conflict was hidden until the very end of the trilogy.

Kylo Ren fails on both counts.

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Scott109 said:

Lord Haseo said:

Scott109 said:

Lord Haseo said:

As far as depth goes it’s a bit deeper than STAR WARS was. Especially when it comes to the villain aspect of the films.

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Care to form a rebuttal or?

Darth Vader was an epic villain precisely because 1) his backstory was revealed gradually 2) his prowess in combat was far superior to the protagonist’s, and 3) his internal conflict was hidden until the very end of the trilogy.

Kylo Ren fails on all three counts.

You fail to realize I was talking about the Vader in STAR WARS which is also known as A New Hope. I wasn’t talking about Vader in general. But Vader in STAR WARS was a one dimensional but awesome villain whereas Kylo is a layered character in TFA.

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Lord Haseo said:

This is why Plinkett is needed.

I watched a lot of Plinkett’s reviews of the prequels. He made a few good points, but I disagreed with him a lot.

I also watched CinemaSins’s youtube videos on the Star Wars prequels. They were just as negative but were higher quality and funnier in my opinion.

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Scott109 said:

Lord Haseo said:

This is why Plinkett is needed.

I watched a lot of Plinkett’s reviews of the prequels. He made a few good points, but I disagreed with him a lot.

He’s coming back and it will be glorious. I even look forward to him tearing TFA to shreds even though most likely the conclusion will be that he’ll deem it a pretty good film overall.

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 (Edited)

Lord Haseo said:

Scott109 said:

Lord Haseo said:

Scott109 said:

Lord Haseo said:

As far as depth goes it’s a bit deeper than STAR WARS was. Especially when it comes to the villain aspect of the films.

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Care to form a rebuttal or?

Darth Vader was an epic villain precisely because 1) his backstory was revealed gradually 2) his prowess in combat was far superior to the protagonist’s, and 3) his internal conflict was hidden until the very end of the trilogy.

Kylo Ren fails on all three counts.

You fail to realize I was talking about the Vader in STAR WARS which is also known as A New Hope. I wasn’t talking about Vader in general. But Vader in STAR WARS was a one dimensional but awesome villain whereas Kylo is a layered character in TFA.

In A New Hope, Vader is a former pupil of Obi-Wan’s who turned to evil and hunted down and destroyed the Jedi Knights, is a great and powerful warrior, is a religious mystic, and is a TIE-Fighter pilot.

Darth Vader is a traitor, a warrior, a mystic, a pilot, and a cyborg. That is hardly one dimensional.

Imagine if Darth Vader took off his mask, spoke of his struggle between the light and the dark sides of the Force, and struggled to kill Obi-Wan, who was a father figure to him. He would have been a much weaker villain. Villains should not have to struggle to commit villainy. Villains should be naturally villainous.

The scene in which Kylo Ren struggles to murder Han Solo was supposed to be poignant. In reality, it was pathetic.

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 (Edited)

Scott109 said:
In A New Hope, Vader is a former pupil of Obi-Wan’s who turned to evil and hunted down and destroyed the Jedi Knights, is a great and powerful warrior, is a religious mystic, and is a TIE-Fighter pilot.

Darth Vader is a traitor, a warrior, a mystic, a pilot, and a cyborg. That is hardly one dimensional.

What in the hell does most of that have to do with distinguishable personality traits that makes someone a 3 dimensional character or villain? Other than being evil Darth Vader in STAR WARS exhibits no other personality traits and that makes him one dimensional.

Imagine if Darth Vader took off his mask, spoke of his struggle between the light and the dark sides of the Force, and struggled to kill Obi-Wan, who was a father figure to him. He would have been a much weaker villain. Villains should not have to struggle to commit villainy. Villains should be naturally villainous.

The difference is that Vader at that point had 19 years of being a Sith Lord so of course he wouldn’t have the same conflict. Kylo on the other hand hasn’t even completed his training and has only a few years as a Dark Sider; it’s unfair to compare the two. Now if Kylo Ren shows this same kind of behavior once he fully immerses himself in the Dark Side, completes his training and has more experience then you’ll have a point. Also killing a father figure who you despise and who maimed you is different than killing your actual father who you have mixed feelings about.

I thought that this quote would be a nice addition

“The saber itself is a big metaphor for the character – it’s unpolished and unfinished, and you may or may not get the sense that it may not work at any given moment.”- Adam Driver

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Scott109 said:
The scene in which Kylo Ren struggles to murder Han Solo was supposed to be poignant. In reality, it was pathetic.

I can say the same of the scene in which Anakin cuts off Mace’s hand and all.

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Scott109 said:
In A New Hope, Vader is a former pupil of Obi-Wan’s who turned to evil and hunted down and destroyed the Jedi Knights, is a great and powerful warrior, is a religious mystic, and is a TIE-Fighter pilot.

Darth Vader is a traitor, a warrior, a mystic, a pilot, and a cyborg. That is hardly one dimensional.

Imagine if Darth Vader took off his mask, spoke of his struggle between the light and the dark sides of the Force, and struggled to kill Obi-Wan, who was a father figure to him. He would have been a much weaker villain. Villains should not have to struggle to commit villainy. Villains should be naturally villainous.

The scene in which Kylo Ren struggles to murder Han Solo was supposed to be poignant. In reality, it was pathetic.

Darth Vader, while being a great villain is still arguably very flat in ANH. The argument that the main villain has to be strictly evil is complete fodder, a good villain exists when he is well rounded and the audience understands their decisions even if we don’t agree with them. Much like how the protagonist will have a struggle with doing evil things but they are still a good person. Villains are still people, they should be understood.

One thing that I’d like to see in Star Wars is a villain that’s completely insane. Like Joker/Hannibal level insane, we haven’t seen that in TCW, Rebels or any of the films but I think it would be a fresh take on a villain in Star Wars and would leave some really cool opportunities.

Prequel Fan-Edit thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Yet-another-series-of-prequel-edits/id/17329

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Smithers said:

One thing that I’d like to see in Star Wars is a villain that’s completely insane. Like Joker/Hannibal level insane

I’d prefer to see a more unstable Francis Dolarhyde/Jame Gumb type, myself.

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The politics was exactly what gave the prequels depth. Without the squabbling in the senate there wouldn’t be any ambiguities about who the good guys of the war are. The prequels are primarily subversive of the OT which makes them genuinely interesting. Everyone shits on midichlorians but midichlorians are a more scientific aspect of the force. Where the OT presents a purely mystical force. The OT has clear cut black and white heroes and villains, the prequels subvert that so it’s difficult to know if anyone is good at all.

By cutting straight to the action and only action forever, TFA makes itself extremely shallow. Kylo Ren literally wants to be evil? Puh-lease, even saturday morning cartoon villains have more depth than that. It’s like a five year olds conception of what grey morality is, just switch black and white around, that’s interesting right? No.

The senate scenes add real depth where TFA adds “hilarious” temper tantrums.

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BmB said:

The politics was exactly what gave the prequels depth.

You mean the illusion of depth? Also the politics are so badly written not only does it kill the pacing anyone with a brain in that universe would see after a while that Palpatine was behind everything even before ROTS.

Everyone shits on midichlorians but midichlorians are a more scientific aspect of the force.

There didn’t need to be a scientific aspect to The Force. The Force is just The Force.

Where the OT presents a purely mystical force.

And that’s the way it should have stayed.

The OT has clear cut black and white heroes and villains, the prequels subvert that so it’s difficult to know if anyone is good at all.

Other than Count Dooku who could you say this about?

By cutting straight to the action and only action forever, TFA makes itself extremely shallow. Kylo Ren literally wants to be evil? Puh-lease, even saturday morning cartoon villains have more depth than that.

Not only is he a good person literally willing himself to be evil he is also hell bent on furthering the legacy of his Grandfather. Also there’s more to a character’s depth than his/her motivations.

It’s like a five year olds conception of what grey morality is, just switch black and white around, that’s interesting right? No.

That’s not grey morality at all. If Kylo Ren were doing all this to destroy all Dark Siders in the galaxy then it would be grey. I wouldn’t exactly know what to call what Kylo is doing but it isn’t grey.