(Spoilers)How could The Force Awakens have been more original? — Page 5

What I would do…

I would not take a crap on the EU, and on the EU fans. No matter what your opinion is on the EU, for decades the EU has been a huge part of Star Wars franchise and Star Wars fandom – some times a book or video game has been the biggest Star Wars event in that year.
I would take the fundamentals: the extended Skywalker/Organa family, Luke trained Jedi, there have been warlords and there is a sleeping Imperial “Remnant” out there – and leave almost everything else unsaid. Some events in books and video games could have happened: that should be up to the individual’s imagination. The new trilogy should validate – or invalidate – as little as possible.
The clean slate of Lucasfilm’s new continuity has angered many long-term fans. Instead, respecting that the EU exists would, I think, even help sales of older EU items (not that I have not seen a recent resurgence in interest for the EU, but it could be bigger) and help bring the original and sequel trilogies together.

But yes:

• The new films has to be primarily about new characters. Not about the ones in the old films and especially not about the ones in the EU.
• A new threat. And yes, it should involve the dark side, but it is unnecessary to have it be spoken out in the first scene that dark-side practitioners are behind it.
• “Hero’s journey”, like Rey’s (in broad strokes)
• Jedi are decimated. Not necessarily killed off off-screen until only Luke remains… before the movie even starts.
• A locale with exotic aliens. Not necessarily a new cantina.
• Han dies.
• The end scene is an emotionally strong but slow scene with a wide-angle shot, but static, not circling.
• And absolutely, no superweapon. No DS3. Period.

IsanRido said:

-Starkiller base ought to be a decoy, “These rebels will think we’re stupid enough to build yet another Death Shhtar!”. Ideally they could come up with a more clever way to be threating.

Interesting idea. Maybe the Republic would throw a large portion of their fleet at it, and then instead of firing – the planet or the sun explodes in a supernova, crippling the Republic’s military forces.
It would serve the same end as destroying the Hosnian system did in TFA but provide more opportunities for drama:

• Lead-up to the fight, showing the tension before the battles. Like in ANH, ESB and ROTJ but which TFA lacked. Personally, I think those moments were very emotionally important in the original trilogy.
• Fanatic Neo-Imp suicide-bomber type “pressing the button”.
• The turning point when it has dawned on the Rep forces what is about to happen.
• Remnant/First order officers when they understand that they have been led to die.
• Show the aftermath of the defeat: people trying to survive. (also something TFA lacked because the planets just popped out of existence)
• Remnant/First order propaganda after the event, blaming the Republic and cheering the “sacrifice” of the dead Neo-imps troops. That would show the ruthlessness of the Neo-Imp leaders.

… but yeah, some people would call that a rehash of ROTJ’s “It’s a trap” moment despite the new angles. 😉

Lord Haseo said:

As a mixed man I really don’t know how to respond to this but all I’ll say is that characters should transcend race. Finn for example doesn’t strike me as belonging to any ethnicity; to me he’s just a person.

Here here! Star Wars should stand above race-issues. White human, black human, green goblin, tall hairy sasquatch, crustacean, all on the same footing.
It would have been bold move if they had made Rey or Finn be another race than human - it would have been less practical with all the makeup but actors in TV-series seem to manage. I think they chose not to because they did not want to be reminded of the failure that was Jar-Jar.

BTW. Before TFA came out, I heard a rumour that the movie was going to show Stormtrooper taking off their helmets – and some of them would be of other races than human.

Darth Lars said:

What I would do…

I would not take a crap on the EU, and on the EU fans. No matter what your opinion is on the EU, for decades the EU has been a huge part of Star Wars franchise and Star Wars fandom – some times a book or video game has been the biggest Star Wars event in that year.
I would take the fundamentals: the extended Skywalker/Organa family, Luke trained Jedi, there have been warlords and there is a sleeping Imperial “Remnant” out there – and leave almost everything else unsaid. Some events in books and video games could have happened: that should be up to the individual’s imagination. The new trilogy should validate – or invalidate – as little as possible.
The clean slate of Lucasfilm’s new continuity has angered many long-term fans. Instead, respecting that the EU exists would, I think, even help sales of older EU items (not that I have not seen a recent resurgence in interest for the EU, but it could be bigger) and help bring the original and sequel trilogies together.

But yes:

• The new films has to be primarily about new characters. Not about the ones in the old films and especially not about the ones in the EU.
• A new threat. And yes, it should involve the dark side, but it is unnecessary to have it be spoken out in the first scene that dark-side practitioners are behind it.
• “Hero’s journey”, like Rey’s (in broad strokes)
• Jedi are decimated. Not necessarily killed off off-screen until only Luke remains… before the movie even starts.
• A locale with exotic aliens. Not necessarily a new cantina.
• Han dies.
• The end scene is an emotionally strong but slow scene with a wide-angle shot, but static, not circling.
• And absolutely, no superweapon. No DS3. Period.

IsanRido said:

-Starkiller base ought to be a decoy, “These rebels will think we’re stupid enough to build yet another Death Shhtar!”. Ideally they could come up with a more clever way to be threating.

Interesting idea. Maybe the Republic would throw a large portion of their fleet at it, and then instead of firing – the planet or the sun explodes in a supernova, crippling the Republic’s military forces.
It would serve the same end as destroying the Hosnian system did in TFA but provide more opportunities for drama:

• Lead-up to the fight, showing the tension before the battles. Like in ANH, ESB and ROTJ but which TFA lacked. Personally, I think those moments were very emotionally important in the original trilogy.
• Fanatic Neo-Imp suicide-bomber type “pressing the button”.
• The turning point when it has dawned on the Rep forces what is about to happen.
• Remnant/First order officers when they understand that they have been led to die.
• Show the aftermath of the defeat: people trying to survive. (also something TFA lacked because the planets just popped out of existence)
• Remnant/First order propaganda after the event, blaming the Republic and cheering the “sacrifice” of the dead Neo-imps troops. That would show the ruthlessness of the Neo-Imp leaders.

… but yeah, some people would call that a rehash of ROTJ’s “It’s a trap” moment despite the new angles. 😉

Lord Haseo said:

As a mixed man I really don’t know how to respond to this but all I’ll say is that characters should transcend race. Finn for example doesn’t strike me as belonging to any ethnicity; to me he’s just a person.

Here here! Star Wars should stand above race-issues. White human, black human, green goblin, tall hairy sasquatch, crustacean, all on the same footing.
It would have been bold move if they had made Rey or Finn be another race than human - it would have been less practical with all the makeup but actors in TV-series seem to manage. I think they chose not to because they did not want to be reminded of the failure that was Jar-Jar.

BTW. Before TFA came out, I heard a rumour that the movie was going to show Stormtrooper taking off their helmets – and some of them would be of other races than human.

The EU is popular, but writing the sequel trilogy within its canon is creative suicide. It’s better to nuke it and have as much creative freedom as possible instead of having to worry about contradicting something in the Jedi Prince series. I know the EU has some gems, and you can still read those. They are still being printed.

Dek Rollins said:

I stand by this:

Dek Rollins said:

John Doom said:

In any case, a solution for making better sequels was already found years ago: in a way, TESB was not a SW film (or at least not like the original SW), yet most of us love it. Why? Because it was well crafted, it was able to stay true to the original movie, while expanding it with new concepts: a perfect balance.
So it was possible. I just wish they’d kept trying going into that bold direction for the ST.

The thing is, though, Empire still kept the same characters intact, and along with Jedi, it finished a furthered story of our heroes’ fight against the Empire. We still had Luke and Vader, and the same specific conflict to finish, so it didn’t get old in the three films that it took. In the ST we have new characters to fill the same old roles, and a new conflict to emulate the same old conflict, so it feels oddly contrived, and not very original, and it’s getting old. From my point of view the ST is evi… I mean it’ll be impossible to make the ST work because of this problem.

What problem? I can understand if you are talking about JJ Abrams’ take (though I definetly don’t agree), but the way you word it is as if any sequel trilogy will be terrible even if it has some of the best writing, cinematography, special effects, and acting of the series (like the Force Awakens).

If you look at all movies in the flat closed-minded way naysayers look at the Force Awakens, nothing is original.

Originality is subjective. Those who have have never seen Flash Gordon or Hidden Fortress or read a space opera think the original Star Wars is extremely original, the first of its kind! This is as far from the truth as you can get. Star Wars was designed to be unoriginal. It’s a mix of everthing George Lucas loved and put into the context of Joseph Campbell’s monomyth, the common story behind all stories.

What JJ Abrams did is exactly what Lucas did : take what he loved and mix it all together. That’s why there’s stuff from all of the original trilogy in the Force Awakens and why the original Star Wars has stuff from Westerns, samurai movies, Science Fiction, and every genre you can think of.

But even in the Force Awakens and the original Star Wars, there’s little differences from what it was meant to copy. This is the only way originality can be objective. If you are subjective, nothing is original. If you are objective, everything is original

To me, originality barely matters at all because trying to be original lead to horrible films and great films so it’s barely a positive at all and if it is, it’s likely subjective.

Dek Rollins said:

^You obviously didn’t understand the post, or you don’t fully understand Star Wars, or you don’t fully understand the matter at hand.

EDIT: Here are the preceding posts if you didn’t read them earlier in the thread:

John Doom said:

Dek Rollins said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

At this point, there’s little variety in the heroes/villains of the SW franchise – especially the villains – and I’m bored with the monotony.

Do ya know what I think of this? It’s about time they stopped making Star Wars films. The OT doesn’t need a trilogy behind it and another in front. It was a complete story, and whatever wasn’t shown to you in the films was laid out in exposition, or implied, or simply left to imagination. I don’t want endless sequels coming after every fairytale that ends in “they all lived happily ever after”, because the story is finished. You can tell that SW is done because it’s boring now, unless you make it not a SW film, and I know I don’t want that.

I agree that the OT doesn’t need prequels nor sequels. Like me, you probably see SW from an artistic point of view, but Disney/LF want more, so here we go 😄

What didn’t I understand? You don’t want sequels to Star Wars because it will be more of the same, but everything is more of the same and to me, that isn’t a bad thing.

BillionaireHobo287 said:

Those who have have never seen Flash Gordon or Hidden Fortress or read a space opera think the original Star Wars is extremely original, the first of its kind! This is as far from the truth as you can get. Star Wars was designed to be unoriginal. It’s a mix of everthing George Lucas loved and put into the context of Joseph Campbell’s monomyth, the common story behind all stories.

Let’s not forget THE GUNS OF NAVARONE and Dam Busters

Star Wars even in it’s genesis has never been completely original and it doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

Dek Rollins said:

The thing is, Star Wars wasn’t ripping off itself.

So ripping off isn’t bad so long as it’s you’re ripping off stuff from other films?

It wasn’t original, but it was paying homage to it’s bases

But where exactly do you draw the line in the sand between paying homage and ripping off?

Nobody ever said that Star Wars was original in the first place.

That’s not true and you know it. Not only do people claim STAR WARS was groundbreaking and original a lot of those people also say that the PT has a leg up on TFA in some regards because it was original as well even though TPM mirrored STAR WARS in a more overt ways than TFA did.

EDIT:

And some of those characters are filling old roles in a blatantly obvious way.

Well Rey is set up to be the new Jedi of the series (but they might turn her to the Dark Side so that role may change) and the new captain of the Millennium Falcon and Poe is just a resistance pilot. If there’s any role he’s blatantly taking at this point it’s Wedge’s and Finn…we don’t know where Finn is going to go specifically.

Dek Rollins said:

TFA ripped off Star Wars; the overall plot,

It remixed the plot. In STAR WARS the overall plot was to destroy the Death Star; in TFA the overall plot was to find Luke.

Though, after all that it borrowed, it still managed to be an original film, because of it’s design.

No, it seems like one because of it’s design when it wasn’t wholly original.

It took a whole lot from older sources, and then built on them.

One can argue TFA does exactly the same things in a lot of regards. Especially when it comes to scenes like Maz’s Castle or the Han and Kylo Ren confrontation.

You can’t give one specific thing that Star Wars was ripping off, because it wasn’t a ripoff.

Did you see the Dam Busters video I posted?

because straying too much from the original films makes it hardly a SW film, but being close makes it feel unoriginal.

That’s a difficult line to walk across. Even if Episodes VIII and IX are mostly original there will be people who will not like it because they think it doesn’t feel enough like Star Wars. But there’s no way to make everyone happy. Not in this day and age anyway and especially not with the fandom in question.

Are we still on this discussion?

Bitching about the merits of TFA is sooooo December 2015.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Bitching about the merits of TFA

What.

John Doom said:
The movie “remixes” most of the plot points from the OT, from another droid on another classified mission, to the destruction of the Nth DS-alike.

Luckily the film is not as overt in it’s mirroring than it is with the whole put droid in Mcguffin and most everything SKB related.

That’s much more ROTJ dared to do back in the days with DSII.

For how shitty SKB was it did differentiate itself quite a bit in a way Dearth Star 2.0 didn’t. Also the destruction of the Hosnian System and the Republic Fleet is going to ripple throughout the rest of the ST whereas Alderaan was just there to show how evil The Empire was.

Let’s not forget the fact that Death Star 2.0 was an integral part of the plot in ROTJ whereas SKB is kind of there for a second and then is kind of sidelined. Even it’s destruction is just background noise to the Han. Kylo Ren, Finn and Rey drama.

There’s a world of difference between:
-trying to make something unique by building on different sources and putting them in a new context;
-building mainly on itself, especially when recreating the same plot points.

The intent doesn’t really matter when you can look back and still see that ideas and plot points were taken from another project. Remixed or not. I mean STAR WARS taking stuff from multiple films (whether it be small things like stealing the opening crawl straight from Flash Gordan to bigger stuff like nearly stealing/reworking entire plot points like in Dam Busters) and TFA’s mirroring of the OT still doesn’t bother me but I won’t justify it.

Stopping remixing events from earlier films from the same series would be the first step into the right direction for most of us: I remember asking about this here sometime ago, and people said they don’t want Disney/LF to keep remixing for the next episodes.

I agree. Mirroring of the OT should be nil in the sequels, but if they are going to create new stories they’re going to have to find a way to make it still feel like Star Wars. Because in the next films assuming they’re mostly original (and even if they’re great films) the next big complaint is that they don’t feel like Star Wars.

Dek Rollins said:

Well then why are you in a thread about TFA being more original?

Because I made this thread to prove a point to everybody, including myself, that JJ Abrams went in a good direction with the Force Awakens.

I don’t want to put someone down, but I haven’t seen a whole lot of good “original” ideas (making the bad guy look like a good guy, making a Star WARS movie with barely any WARS, etc.). I wanted to see if the people who did not like the Force Awakens could be better while being more original than Abrams, and I do NOT stand corrected. The Force Awakens is a great movie.

If you’re still worried about originality with Episode 8 and 9, I can tell you those are in great hands. There might be subversions in the Force Awakens we can’t even see yet because of Episode 8 and 9.

Dek Rollins said:

I’ve already stated why more SW films won’t work under any circumstances.

This statement seems like nonsense on its face but I don’t remember the context, so please explain further/again.

Dek Rollins said:

EDIT: The "under any circumstances part of the post was probably pushing it, but that just comes from my personal view, without taking into account other tastes.

That’s more reasonable, but it still seems strange to assume you can’t possibly like Ep 8, especially given there is a different director, and you don’t yet know how much 8 will ape 5 (or any other part of the OT).