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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 59

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Mithrandir said:

You are the one who claims to have worked in the industry

I don’t claim to work in the industry. I work in advertising, not film. I was very clear that I work in a different industry, and therefore do not profess to know better than JJ, Kasdan, et al. In fact, that was my whole point.

Mithrandir said:

but refuses to enlighten us with your overwhelming knowledge

See above. I have never claimed to have overwhelming knowledge, which is exactly why I’m not spouting the same film school 101 stuff that some people are.

Mithrandir said:

I don’t know how you personally feel with your studies, but what you propose is just as if no one could give his thought on a building without being an architect.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. I just don’t believe that anybody here is HONESTLY of the opinion that the prequels are good movies. Even if you feel it’s possible to argue that they are superior in terms of originality and structure etc, they fail in the most basic ways like being an enjoyable way to spend two hours. I think arguing the case for the prequels on a TFA review thread is just argumentative posturing, using knowledge to assert a differing opinion for the sake of it. That’s not discussion, that’s antagonising and being contrary.

And to use your building/architect analogy, of course, people can look at a building and say ‘I don’t like it, it’s ugly’ or whatever, but they probably shouldn’t start giving advice on how to structurally improve it. I’m also pretty sure that if they had a go at designing and erecting that building themselves, it would fall down - because actually making a building is different to reading a book about it.

Mithrandir said:

Just for the sake of curiosity, do you deem more important to know the difference between the technical capabilities of two camera-objectives than to know what do you intend to do with the camera? The former requires a certain training in optics and perspective, the latter is widely opinable even if you never handled a camera. Because it only needs some attention and a rational mind. That’s why everyone can criticize but a few can perform.

Knowledge builds itself concentrically from what’s general to what’s particular. Among other things, two movies can have the same plot and different details. Because when your mind processes stuff and makes a classification, details are the first things it discards.

Show off 😉

Mithrandir said:

But really man, everyone is entitled to its own opinion, the point is that everyone can and should give his own view in a forum. Get off the pony.

Cool. Point taken. My opinion is that people on this board who claim to prefer the prequels over TFA are either nuts or lying. Maybe both.

Well, I just popped on here for my nightly internet LOLZ and looks like I got them.

I’m off to read my ‘Art of The Force Awakens’ book because I like seeing the love and thought that went into the movie to make it feel like Star Wars.

Bye.

War does not make one great.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:

Mithrandir said:

You are the one who claims to have worked in the industry

I don’t claim to work in the industry. I work in advertising, not film. I was very clear that I work in a different industry, and therefore do not profess to know better than JJ, Kasdan, et al. In fact, that was my whole point.

Your whole point is “can’t make it yourself then don’t complain”. That posture would basically overrule a whole universe of professional art critics, and average people who have and can build an opinion based on justifications.

Mithrandir said:

I don’t know how you personally feel with your studies, but what you propose is just as if no one could give his thought on a building without being an architect.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. I just don’t believe that anybody here is HONESTLY of the opinion that the prequels are good movies. Even if you feel it’s possible to argue that they are superior in terms of originality and structure etc, they fail in the most basic ways like being an enjoyable way to spend two hours. I think arguing the case for the prequels on a TFA review thread is just argumentative posturing, using knowledge to assert a differing opinion for the sake of it. That’s not discussion, that’s antagonising and being contrary.

Check the lenght and complexity of the posts to see if it’s discussion with fundaments or just antagonising

And to use your building/architect analogy, of course, people can look at a building and say ‘I don’t like it, it’s ugly’ or whatever, but they probably shouldn’t start giving advice on how to structurally improve it. I’m also pretty sure that if they had a go at designing and erecting that building themselves, it would fall down - because actually making a building is different to reading a book about it.

I’m afraid you’d be surprised to know that the vast majority of western architects did not, do not, and will not build their designs themselves. That’s the whole point of designing; that the project exists in a completely etheral, non detailed plane while the actual building is charged with details. The design is always an intention, an idea or who something should be. Not the thing itself. And designs are always criticized.

Exactly like what a plot is. A plot is the basic premise of a movie. It doesn’t matter if Jakku is not Tattooine, because the plot is the first, most obvious structure of the film.

In a general level, there’s the protagoist feeling uncomfortable about living in the fringe of the galaxy.
In a more detailed level, there’s the protagonist living in a desert planet in the fringe of the galaxy.

Mithrandir said:

Just for the sake of curiosity, do you deem more important to know the difference between the technical capabilities of two camera-objectives than to know what do you intend to do with the camera? The former requires a certain training in optics and perspective, the latter is widely opinable even if you never handled a camera. Because it only needs some attention and a rational mind. That’s why everyone can criticize but a few can perform.

Knowledge builds itself concentrically from what’s general to what’s particular. Among other things, two movies can have the same plot and different details. Because when your mind processes stuff and makes a classification, details are the first things it discards.

Show off 😉

See above. It’s just an answer to your strange elliptical requirement of having studies to speak about the most popular example of pop-corn cinema.

Mithrandir said:

But really man, everyone is entitled to its own opinion, the point is that everyone can and should give his own view in a forum. Get off the pony.

Cool. Point taken. My opinion is that people on this board who claim to prefer the prequels over TFA are either nuts or lying. Maybe both.

Well, I just popped on here for my nightly internet LOLZ and looks like I got them.

I’m off to read my ‘Art of The Force Awakens’ book because I like seeing the love and thought that went into the movie to make it feel like Star Wars.

Bye.

Bye!

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Frank your Majesty said:

Your definition of plot is so general that it doesn’t say anything about the actual movie at all.

What a load of rubbish.
In that case small resort town governed by a politician more concerned with the possible reduction in holiday revenue than the risk to the lives of the townsfolk, being attacked by a carnivorous fish, resulting in a local law enforcer, a marine biologist and a noted Bond villain going on a hunt of the ocean isn’t even remotely In Like Flint. 😛

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If were the kind of person that liked to nitpick movies to absolute death, I don’t think I’d like any of these Star Wars movies.

If I’m being consistent, of course. Otherwise, I could love two or three of them and hate all the others.

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Bingowings said:

For me TFA was a cynically constructed marketing exercise with great acting and nice art design and those scenes are parallel to each other.

Hasn’t Star Wars always been a marketing exercise on some level?

ANOTHER WAY TFA RIPPED OFF THE ORIGINALS

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Forgive me If I am repeating anything anyone else has said, I have not read through this entire thread. Just want to give some of my thoughts.

I think the notion that TFA is a well acted, directed, designed, and composed film (on a technical level) can not be disputed. The film follows Campbell’s pattern of the hero’s journey almost religiously (much like the original Star Wars) and through this finds much success. That combined with truly solid directing and staging makes for a film that certainly kept me invested from beginning to end. The lazy staging of the prequels (walking and talking, sitting on a couch in shot reverse shot telling the plot rather than showing it) is done away with in TFA. There is always action and the characters are always doing rather than saying. The story and action keeps moving forward. This is what makes a movie a movie, rather than a play. This is something George did not understand when making the prequels while J.J. on the other hand knows how to turn a narrative into compelling cinema. On that front, The Force Awakens is overall a well-executed film. “Faster and more intense” was certainly taken to heart.

Having said that, the biggest issue I have with The Force Awakens is that it is too reliant on exhibitionism and audience interaction. It is content to rest on the laurels of the franchise and let the already iconic imagery do the work without offering anything new to the table. There are too many moments like when Han runs into the frame for the first time and stands there, waiting for the audience to finish cheering before saying his first line. It’s also off putting the way these moments were structured in that they were paced out in small doses as the film progressed. It’s like the filmmakers are going: Ok everybody it’s now time to clap for the falcon - 20 min later - Ok folks here comes Han, time for another applause - 20 more min - Now here’s Lei and C-3P0, more applause please. This 4th walled exhibitionism of OT imagery and characters distracts from the core narrative, which is something a film should never do. You enjoyed those moments in the theater but I can bet you’ll be cringing when you watch the BD by yourself or with just a small number of people. Now, of course OT imagery is necessary in this film as it is a continuation of the story. My issue is not with the imagery itself but they way it is presented, pausing for applause and then moving on. The more subtle things such as the red screen on the Falcon turret was something I appreciated a whole lot more because it adheres to established visual continuity (which makes you feel like we are right back where we left off) without being in your face about it, unlike a lot of other moments.

Where the prequels failed as compelling cinema, they succeeded in contributing to the lore. Despite their poor execution as films (really poor execution) they, at the very least, are wholly original in both background narrative and mise en scene (in other words, iconic imagery such as coruscant, battle droids, etc.) TFA fails on this account.

I know this has been said before and many will be quick to jump on me because of it, but the term ‘fan film’ really does come to mind when thinking about The Force Awakens (Much like J.J.'s Star Trek and Into Darkness). The Force Awakens is, at the end of the day, a caricature of the the original films without any of the substance. There was true mysticism, spirituality, and meaning behind the original three films. There is real wisdom to be drawn from Yoda’s teachings for example. There is no such substance in The Force Awakens. In being so overtly celebratory of the original trilogy with the wink winks and 4th walled references, TFA ironically fails to understand and capture the real reason we love Star Wars; that is the emotional connection to the characters. Rey has no time to realistically develop as a character because she is too busy saying stuff like “You’re Han Solo! You made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs”. It’s very difficult to get pulled into a story when the film tries so hard to pull you back out with lines like that.

Sorry for making this so long, It was not what I intended when I started typing. I can’t help but ramble sometimes. There’s more stuff I wanted to touch on (which I did not like) such as marvel humor, the poor score, and more. Perhaps another time. Thanks for reading.

TLDR: The Force Awakens is a great action film worth seeing (as if anyone hasn’t seen it ;D). It was meticulously designed to do nothing more than please the general audience and it succeeds in achieving that goal. However it is too bogged down by reliance on exhibitionism and audience interaction and as such loses the emotional connection to the audience.

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Great post. I actually agree with a lot of what you’ve said (and even though I loved the movie, I expect you’re right about repeat viewings much later down the line).

I do wonder though - if they hadn’t acknowledged the history and heroed those moments in the way they did, would we feel unsatisfied in a different way? They had a choice to either do it or not do it, and they chose to do it. Arguably they made the wrong decision, but equally the opposite decision could have backfired.

It was always going to be a bit of a lose/lose situation for whoever made this film. As I said, I agree with your points, but I’m not sure if I (and the rest of the audience) would have preferred it the other way. Do we want the re-introduction of the falcon to pass without fanfare? Or Han and Chewie to walk back into our lives with no sense of event? Unfortunately we’ll never know, because the film is how it is.

War does not make one great.

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In theory, if the re-introductions were drawn out then I would have been bothered by them in subsequent viewings but I wasn’t and they were fun the first time so I personally didn’t find it a problem.

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a_moldey_waffle said:

Having said that, the biggest issue I have with The Force Awakens is that it is too reliant on exhibitionism and audience interaction. It is content to rest on the laurels of the franchise and let the already iconic imagery do the work without offering anything new to the table.

I’m going to disagree here. There is so much new, and so much risk taking, that I can’t agree nothing new is brought to the table.

Female lead to carry the movie, who is allowed to stay covered up (in one outfit, no less) and get sweaty and dirty? Huge risk.

Black second lead, as a defecting stormtrooper? Risk.

Han gets killed? Giant risk.

Luke doesn’t show up until the last scene and doesn’t say anything? Risk!

We get a complex imperfect villain completely unlike Vader who idolizes him at the same time. Not to mention a villain who doesn’t look like one when he takes the mask off. We see the force used in new and interesting ways.

I don’t disagree with much of your points, and the movie does play it safe in some ways, but it’s not a safe movie.

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TV’s Frink said:

Bingowings said:

For me TFA was a cynically constructed marketing exercise with great acting and nice art design and those scenes are parallel to each other.

Hasn’t Star Wars always been a marketing exercise on some level?

ANOTHER WAY TFA RIPPED OFF THE ORIGINALS

I think George saw the potential to sell stuff where others didn’t but I don’t think even he saw what would happen once Star Wars came out.
The first film was designed to evoke nostalgia for the serials that George (and indeed I) watched as kids just as American Graffiti was designed to provoke nostalgia for the 50s but the plot doesn’t ape a previous film to the same extent.
The second film is designed to push the characters forward not to ape the first film (though the Hoth battle is sort of the first Death Star battle with the location and sides switched).
The rot set in with ROTJ and then the scene and plot steals and all the references get even worse in the PT.
The acting, directing and art design is much better with TFA

ANH has got bits of Dune, Flash Gordon, 633 Squadron, Hidden Fortress, The Searchers etc, etc but it’s not a plot transplant from any one of those sources.
Not to the extent that Poltergeist is lift from Jaws and certainly not the extent here.

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Bingowings said:

Not to the extent that Poltergeist is lift from Jaws

I’ll fully admit I have not seen Poltergeist in a really long time and I have never been able to sit through Jaws (here we go…), but I’ve never heard that before.

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Anchorhead said:

Lord Haseo said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq51w34Hg9I

@ 1:45

This argument need not go further

They ran around it like it was nothing when they were going toward Ben. Once Luke yells, it’s suddenly become a gigantic chasm and somehow they can’t seem to find a way around it

When they went around it the Stormies were distracted by Vader and the old guy in a dressing gown having a glow stick dance party (opps that was Episode 3).
With Luke screaming the galaxy’s favorite word at the top of his voice all the attention was on the remaining heroes.
Yes we all know that Stormies only hit heroes when the plot demands it and never fatally but they don’t know that. So you have a line of troopers firing away and a death pit (the bad guys think railings are unnecessary for some reason).

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a_moldey_waffle said:
Rey has no time to realistically develop as a character because she is too busy saying stuff like “You’re Han Solo! You made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs”

Part of that scene was there to establish that the whole history of the OT is not set in stone. The Galaxy can’t come to a consensus as to Han Solo is. So imagine what else from there are merely regarded as legend or just hyperbole. For me it added depth to the universe in a far more effective way the PT did. Also I feel she was developed plenty. We know that she loyal almost to a fault. She didn’t sell BB-8 regardless of just meeting it while 60 portions is staring her right in the face. this is coupled with the fact that she yearns to get off Jakku to the point in which she marks her wall for every day she is there before her family returns. And later in the film when she is offered a job from Han she declines it simply for her devotion she has for her family who she doesn’t even know. Not only that but seeing as how she lives her life that she has had a very lonely and brutal one. Considering her combat prowess in she probably got beat up a lot while she was a kid and most likely had to steal among other sketchy activities to survive before she became a scavenger. And even though she had gotten the short end of the stick she still managed to come out compassionate even though she had a seemingly hard exterior in her first scene with BB-8. Seeing her reaction to the Force Flashback and knowing that The Force is calling to her fills her with fear. Fear of her competence, fear of abandoning her family for they might come back one day and she feared Kylo Ren greatly at that point. And when she called up on The Force and was able to defeat a wounded and mentally unstable Kylo Ren she saw her potential and embraced her destiny.

If I think about it more I could probably remember some other things I noted about Rey while watching the film, but if there’s anyone who wasn’t fully fleshed out it was Poe.

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TV’s Frink said:

Bingowings said:

Not to the extent that Poltergeist is lift from Jaws

I’ll fully admit I have not seen Poltergeist in a really long time and I have never been able to sit through Jaws (here we go…), but I’ve never heard that before.

If you get a break I’d recommend both. They are both good films and worth a watch the plot similarities aren’t as annoying as the two films aren’t meant to exist in the same universe and they aren’t as extreme as the situation here. I’m surprised you haven’t made it through Jaws.
You could chuck in CE3K into the trilogy and that would almost have been of relevance as Poltergeist and Gremlins both came from the aborted sequel to CE3K which also became ET.

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hydrospanner said:

Alderaan said:

Also look at the execution of the plot on screen. Do you really want to compare the original Death Star attack with Starkiller assault side-by-side? Same plot elements can get boring AND pale in quality to the original.

I did compare it. The Starkiller assault was way better than the Death Star attack in the original. Everyone who likes TFA has even stated as much in their review.

All the lolz

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Yeah, I didn’t find the Starkiller assault all that good either. It felt like a weak background element that made me go, “oh yeah, there’s people flying around huh”
Plus, while it’s partially my fault, I think the trailers did indeed give away the only cool bits of the X Wing scenes. Never ever felt Poe was in danger either.

Thankfully, I was much more invested in whatever was going on with Finn, Rey, Han, Chewie, and Kylo during the last remaining parts of the film.

The Rise of Failures

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Alderaan said:

hydrospanner said:

Alderaan said:

Also look at the execution of the plot on screen. Do you really want to compare the original Death Star attack with Starkiller assault side-by-side? Same plot elements can get boring AND pale in quality to the original.

I did compare it. The Starkiller assault was way better than the Death Star attack in the original. Everyone who likes TFA has even stated as much in their review.

All the lolz

I thought that was satire but honestly I’m not sure.

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Bingowings said:

Anchorhead said:

Lord Haseo said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq51w34Hg9I

@ 1:45

This argument need not go further

They ran around it like it was nothing when they were going toward Ben. Once Luke yells, it’s suddenly become a gigantic chasm and somehow they can’t seem to find a way around it

When they went around it the Stormies were distracted by Vader and the old guy in a dressing gown having a glow stick dance party (opps that was Episode 3).
With Luke screaming the galaxy’s favorite word at the top of his voice all the attention was on the remaining heroes.
Yes we all know that Stormies only hit heroes when the plot demands it and never fatally but they don’t know that. So you have a line of troopers firing away and a death pit (the bad guys think railings are unnecessary for some reason).

I was more addressing how the hole goes from a minor obstacle;

To a gaping chasm…asm…asm… when it better serves the plot.

Bingowings said:
a glow stick dance party (opps that was Episode 3).

Actual LOL

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brash_stryker said:

It’s a bit showy, I’ll admit. I’m guessing that it was an Abrams decision rather than Kasdan’s. I can see why people criticise it, as actually freezing a blaster bolt in mid air isn’t something we’ve seen even Vader do. But if I wanted to justify it “in-universe”, I’d probably do so by pointing out that when Vader blocked blaster bolts, he caused them to dissipate/disappear. Maybe that requires a greater mastery of the force than just holding it in place temporarily.

Maybe? :p

It’s in the script that they were meant to ricochet on to the walls when Vader blocks Han’s Blaster in the dining room of Cloud city. The Ricochet Lasers changing direction were not painted in. But the Blast marks on the side walls from the squibs are physically there on the set.

So what Vader did was not really any different to what Kylo Ren did to be honest it’s just the mistake that they made in Empire Post production so peoples view of that scene has been skewed since the films inception.

The 2 other shots that have the lasers not present was in Echo Base when Han pulls 3po through the door you can see the squibs going off in the shot and when 3PO run’s up the ramp of the Falcon in the Hanger. (you can hear the sound mix was cut to mute) the lasers were meant to fly past him. The sounds were probably still in the mix hence why you will hear no sound apart from music as he climbs the ramp because they altered the scene order and change the sequence about of their escape of being chased and shot at to not being chased and not being shot at.