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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 37

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TV’s Frink said:

RicOlie_2 said:

TV’s Frink said:

What are the specific complaints regarding the pacing? Too fast? Too slow? I didn’t have an issue with it either time I saw it, nor did any of the top Hollywood editors I’m friends with. And I’m friends with most of them, although obviously I can’t name any of them.

I felt that it was way too fast-paced with no time to breathe during much of it, especially the beginning. Certain parts were OK (the section of the movie set at Maz’ castle wasn’t too bad), but overall, it felt like a rollercoaster ride with no time to enjoy the scenery.

What about all the time with Rey before she meets up with Finn? Plenty of time to enjoy the scenery and her performance.

That wasn’t too bad. It got worse around the time Finn started making his way through the desert, though. There was no sense of the passage of time. You don’t find your way to a settlement in a few hours when stranded in the middle of the desert, but that’s the impression I got–and maybe that’s what was intended.

There were also little details in the movie that didn’t make sense, like that huge pig-thing that drank and wasted enormous amounts of water, which was no doubt precious, and had little conceivable purpose.

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RicOlie_2 said:

There were also little details in the movie that didn’t make sense, like that huge pig-thing that drank and wasted enormous amounts of water, which was no doubt precious, and had little conceivable purpose.

If you think about it I guess that makes sense, but wouldn’t the same apply for the dewbacks on Tatooine? And why do the Stormtroopers magically have one after landing to search for the escape pod? Were they really keeping them in captivity on the Star Destroyer to take with them on planetary missions?

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It was clearly some sort of pack animal, or even cattle.

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Where were you in '77?

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According to wookieepedia it is called a Happabore.

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hydrospanner said:

RicOlie_2 said:

There were also little details in the movie that didn’t make sense, like that huge pig-thing that drank and wasted enormous amounts of water, which was no doubt precious, and had little conceivable purpose.

If you think about it I guess that makes sense, but wouldn’t the same apply for the dewbacks on Tatooine? And why do the Stormtroopers magically have one after landing to search for the escape pod? Were they really keeping them in captivity on the Star Destroyer to take with them on planetary missions?

Fair enough. I guess I never thought much about it because we didn’t see dewbacks drinking enormous quantities of water, so it could be assumed they don’t need much. Some lizards can drink the dew/rainwater that collects on their backs and is channeled to their mouths. I would imagine that that’s the origin of the dewback’s name–and perhaps its sole source of water (the fact that their are moisture vaporators on Tatooine hints at their being enough water in the atmosphere to keep humans and other animals going).

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There were moisture vaporators on Jakku as well.

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Do we know that water is prohibitively scarce on Jakku? Maybe their moisture farming game is on point. It seemed to me that food was the bigger problem, since Rey traded her salvage for rations which she then prepared with her own water. Maybe the green stuff in her ration pack was happabore jerky, and raising these things is the only way anyone on the planet gets any protein.

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I forgot about that. Maybe they can get water from underground on Jakku? Although if so, why would they bother with vaporators (unless those things are effective enough at collecting water that they’d rival a well)?

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 (Edited)

Alderaan said:

The editing in TFA was terrible. I had a conversation with a top Hollywood editor and he seemed offended I would think so and said I was wrong.

But I stand by my point. It’s downright terrible in TFA.

Alderaan said:

The first sequence was a disaster and should have been cut. The rest of Act I with Rey on Jakku was done pretty well I thought. This was the only part of the film that was allowed to breathe. The bit on the freighter was intolerable. After that, the film just felt rushed and jerky, no rhythm whatsoever. As Ric pointed out, I think the editing of the space battle in the final act was really poorly done. There was no dramatic tension at all.

I remember in the trailer there is a wide shot of BB-8 in the X-wing set against the snowy landscape on Starkiller, and all these TIE fighters start closing in. Such a dramatic and foreboding shot, but it wasn’t even edited right in the final film … I remember seeing it at the theater and thinking “that’s all they did with that great shot?” Then it was just pew-pew yippee we did it! Game over.

Another potentially great moment in the film was the reveal of Darth Vader’s melted helment. As it turns out, the thing was on screen for a total of 0.5 seconds right at the end of a scene and that’s it. The camera was on Kylo talking to himself for 30 seconds or whatever, and then only so briefly do we see Vader’s helmet. There is no buildup towards this scene, no real context that Kylo wants to “finish what he started”, so this huge reveal really calls for the film to

Stop.

Call attention to the helmet. And Kylo.

Really let it sit in for a moment.

And then carry on.

…Instead, we see it on screen for half a second and then mid-transition – welp – we’re onto the next action sequence just like that, no big deal.

Just out of curiosity, are you a filmmaker?

I only ask because you’re throwing out some pretty big opinions, and I’m curious about your credentials.

For the record, I make TV commercials. Admittedly I don’t make films, but it’s the same ballpark. I write the scripts, then oversee every stage of production. I choose the director and work closely with them during pre-prod and on set, I sit in on casting and have final say on actors, I oversee the edit, post and sound (all while juggling client and audience considerations and concerns). Although my ‘storytelling’ is confined to a couple of minutes, rather than full length features, I do like to think that years in the industry have given me some insight into how these things are put together, and like you I’m fortunate to count some Hollywood directors, editors and even actors as friends (including some names you would no doubt recognise). I know effects people who actually worked on the prequels, and others who have worked on Doctor Who, GoT, The Martian, Prometheus and Gladiator, to name but a few.

Here’s my website. It includes the work I’m proud of - I’ve probably made 50 more commercials than you see here, but I’ve lost count:

[LINK REMOVED]

And you know what?.. I would NEVER pipe up about how terrible the editing was on a Star Wars movie. Sure, I might say I don’t like it, or this and that bit sucked, but real, granular filmmaking critique?.. I’m simply not qualified, and I know how amazingly hard it is to balance every voice in the room and still end up with a finished product that makes sense and entertains people.

The director of every film you’ve ever seen, even the bad ones, deserves respect simply for getting a movie made and released in the first place. That doesn’t mean we can’t critique it (that’s part of the fun), but it always amazes me how easy people think it is, and how everybody thinks they can do better.

So are you a filmmaker? I’d love to see some of your work.

War does not make one great.

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Don’t sell yourself short, YIYF. Stanley Kubrick was fascinated by tv commercials and studied them. 😃

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Where were you in '77?

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Ha, thanks Silverwook.

That’s probably because Stanley made his home in England - over here Advertising is considered one step below Film & TV, but in the States I get the impression we’re one step above a crooked used car salesman 😉

War does not make one great.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:

Ha, thanks Silverwook.

That’s probably because Stanley made his home in England - over here Advertising is considered one step below Film & TV, but in the States I get the impression we’re one step above a crooked used car salesman 😉

IIRC, someone would send him tapes of American football games with the ads intact, so he was seeing stuff from both sides of the pond. 😃

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Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

I never liked Kubrick, I always thought he should have cut that damn helicopter shot from the intro of The Shining and just gotten to the ACTION! Less typewriter, more axe.

I’m joking of course 😉

War does not make one great.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:

Alderaan said:

The editing in TFA was terrible. I had a conversation with a top Hollywood editor and he seemed offended I would think so and said I was wrong.

But I stand by my point. It’s downright terrible in TFA.

Alderaan said:

The first sequence was a disaster and should have been cut. The rest of Act I with Rey on Jakku was done pretty well I thought. This was the only part of the film that was allowed to breathe. The bit on the freighter was intolerable. After that, the film just felt rushed and jerky, no rhythm whatsoever. As Ric pointed out, I think the editing of the space battle in the final act was really poorly done. There was no dramatic tension at all.

I remember in the trailer there is a wide shot of BB-8 in the X-wing set against the snowy landscape on Starkiller, and all these TIE fighters start closing in. Such a dramatic and foreboding shot, but it wasn’t even edited right in the final film … I remember seeing it at the theater and thinking “that’s all they did with that great shot?” Then it was just pew-pew yippee we did it! Game over.

Another potentially great moment in the film was the reveal of Darth Vader’s melted helment. As it turns out, the thing was on screen for a total of 0.5 seconds right at the end of a scene and that’s it. The camera was on Kylo talking to himself for 30 seconds or whatever, and then only so briefly do we see Vader’s helmet. There is no buildup towards this scene, no real context that Kylo wants to “finish what he started”, so this huge reveal really calls for the film to

Stop.

Call attention to the helmet. And Kylo.

Really let it sit in for a moment.

And then carry on.

…Instead, we see it on screen for half a second and then mid-transition – welp – we’re onto the next action sequence just like that, no big deal.

Just out of curiosity, are you a filmmaker?

I only ask because you’re throwing out some pretty big opinions, and I’m curious about your credentials.

I’m not a filmmaker and I agree on all Alderaan’s points above. I don’t have a strong memory about the editing itself for the whole movie, but I agree the pacing was uneven and so was the sense of time. There wasn’t a time to breath or let things sink in until they got out of Jakku and the end battle was pretty messy and it felt like it didn’t even matter. The trailers were great, especially the Japanese one.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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 (Edited)

John Doom said:

I do feel there were a lot of scenes that could’ve been handled better, with the right pacing and music, Vader’s helmet’s reveal being one of them, which felt almost casually shown on the screen.

As somebody who avoided all trailers, and had never seen Vader’s melted helmet until it’s appearance in the film (and therefore wasn’t expecting it), I thought it was just right.

But that’s just my opinion.

Obviously everybody’s entitled to an opinion. It’s just when it starts getting into frame by frame ‘they should have done it like this’ that it gets a bit tiresome. If any one of us were in the hot seat instead of JJ, I’d bet good money on the finished film being a lot worse. Sure, it would contain zero logic flaws and adhere slavishly to Jedi lore, but it would probably be dull as dishwater, appeal to nobody but hardcore fans, and be a total mess from a storytelling point of view.

War does not make one great.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:
Just out of curiosity, are you a filmmaker?

I only ask because you’re throwing out some pretty big opinions, and I’m curious about your credentials.

First, I’m curious why you think it matters whether someone is a filmmaker or not when they offer criticism? There are critics who get paid for a living to critique films. They are professionals at it, and yet they don’t make any films themselves. There are countless other people who simply watch films and have a taste for what they see and what they like. Is their opinion and the way they express it any less valid?

My criticism may have sounded harsh to your ears, but I assure you that your response sounded condescending to mine, and probably others as well.

Now to answer your question, I’m a screenwriter. I’m also making my first documentary right now. I know it’s difficult to make any film, whether it’s two minutes long, or two hours long, and I certainly appreciate that process. Nevertheless, we are speaking about professionals here, people who are being paid very handsomely to produce high quality work. They aren’t students or amateurs, and there is no need for kid gloves, lemons at halftime, or participation awards. I criticized an aspect of the filmmaking, another user asked me to explain myself, and I did exactly that. Would you have preferred a blanket statement with no explanation?

Yoda Is Your Father said:
For the record, I make TV commercials. Admittedly I don’t make films, but it’s the same ballpark.

I checked out your website and I have to commend you for your casting decision on the Axe girl. Whatever else you do in your career that will be hard to top!

All kidding aside, I liked the commercial and thought it was well done.

Yoda Is Your Father said:
And you know what?.. I would NEVER pipe up about how terrible the editing was on a Star Wars movie. Sure, I might say I don’t like it, or this and that bit sucked, but real, granular filmmaking critique?.. I’m simply not qualified, and I know how amazingly hard it is to balance every voice in the room and still end up with a finished product that makes sense and entertains people.

For the record, I’d like to mention that I changed my wording from ‘terrible’ to ‘didn’t meet my expectations’. It’s easy to get caught up in anonymous internet hyperbole, so I already offered a full mea culpa in a previous post.

As for the rest of this, you seem to be chiding me not so much for my admittedly excessive word choice, but more because I had the audacity to offer specific critiques. Is that right? I simply cannot understand where you are coming from, since this is a discussion thread about the film. If you disagree with me, then let’s discuss in good faith.

Yoda Is Your Father said:
The director of every film you’ve ever seen, even the bad ones, deserves respect simply for getting a movie made and released in the first place.

This is just not true. Good work deserves praise; bad work does not.

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SilverWook said:

Don’t sell yourself short, YIYF. Stanley Kubrick was fascinated by tv commercials and studied them. 😃

I agree. I have a close friend in L.A. who designs & builds sets for a living. Mostly commercials, local news sets, cable news sets, and an occasional video. We sometimes sit and discuss the insanity of what it takes to get fifty people rowing the same direction for what will be 60 seconds of film. I can’t even imagine what it would take on a two and a half hour film that took nearly two years.

Not to mention, there are some very well done commercials these days. 60 seconds of camera work, acting, sets, music, etc that equal the level of a film. I’ve spent more than a few moments occasionally watching some on Youtube because I thought they were so well done.

"Pigs claim they acted in self defence"
Well done, YIYF. 😉

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hydrospanner said:

Apparently George is criticizing the film for being a “retro movie”

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/31/george-lucas-attacks-retro-star-wars-the-force-awakens

Well, you can’t really say he doesn’t have a point there.

Edit: and I only mean it being a somewhat “retro”, not all the crap he’s saying about SW being a soap opera etc.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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LexX said:

hydrospanner said:

Apparently George is criticizing the film for being a “retro movie”

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/31/george-lucas-attacks-retro-star-wars-the-force-awakens

Well, you can’t really say he doesn’t have a point there.

Edit: and I only mean it being a somewhat “retro”, not all the crap he’s saying about SW being a soap opera etc.

Well let’s be fair, George didn’t even go ‘retro’ when he blatantly should have (in the films set before the OT) so I find it very hard to take the guy seriously. He just seems bitter.

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brash_stryker said:

LexX said:

hydrospanner said:

Apparently George is criticizing the film for being a “retro movie”

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/31/george-lucas-attacks-retro-star-wars-the-force-awakens

Well, you can’t really say he doesn’t have a point there.

Edit: and I only mean it being a somewhat “retro”, not all the crap he’s saying about SW being a soap opera etc.

Well let’s be fair, George didn’t even go ‘retro’ when he blatantly should have (in the films set before the OT) so I find it very hard to take the guy seriously. He just seems bitter.

Why exactly should he have gone retro in the PT though?
It’s set thirty-ish years earlier, so naturally it should look very different. He may not have made the best design-choices but at least he wasn’t just copying himself completely. The failure of those films were the horrible writing and contrived plots, not that it wasn’t OT enough.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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ZkinandBonez said:

brash_stryker said:

LexX said:

hydrospanner said:

Apparently George is criticizing the film for being a “retro movie”

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/31/george-lucas-attacks-retro-star-wars-the-force-awakens

Well, you can’t really say he doesn’t have a point there.

Edit: and I only mean it being a somewhat “retro”, not all the crap he’s saying about SW being a soap opera etc.

Well let’s be fair, George didn’t even go ‘retro’ when he blatantly should have (in the films set before the OT) so I find it very hard to take the guy seriously. He just seems bitter.

Why exactly should he have gone retro in the PT though?
It’s set thirty-ish years earlier, so naturally it should look very different. He may not have made the best design-choices but at least he wasn’t just copying himself completely. The failure of those films were the horrible writing and contrived plots, not that it wasn’t OT enough.

I agree with you to an extent. Those films are broken in terms of writing right out of the gate. But even if they weren’t, it would still have a problem with the lack of connections. They should have had the same “used universe” feel, but they didn’t. But it’s not all about aesthetic. It’s to do with ensuring that your story, setting and key plot points have a direct connection to the ‘Retro’. For instance…

Alderaan should have featured more prominently (not just in a brief montage at the end of the 3rd film) so the audience would give a shit about its destruction in ANH. That would have allowed the story to flow organically from one trilogy into the next, rather than feeling entirely separate.

Speaking of planets though, Tatooine actually featured too prominently. How many times did we need to go back there exactly? It would have been enough to establish that Owen lived there and urged Anakin to “stay there” with him rather than go with Obi Wan on the “idealistic crusade”. It would have been up to the writer the circumstances of how Anakin and Owen found themselves on Tatooine. But no, let’s make it so that Anakin only met him once AFTER having gone away and there was no “crusade” at all, and it wasn’t even Obi Wan that took him. It was Qui Gon.

Likewise, let’s replace a “great starpilot” with a little kid who drives a ground-level chariot.

Yoda trained Obi Wan? Nah. Let’s just switch it so that Qui Gon did.

Anakin was a good friend? Let’s make him an asshole.

He was “seduced” by the dark side? Let’s make it a conscious decision to save his wife.

Leia remembers her mother, you say? Well we can’t have that. Let’s kill her during childbirth!

I’m not averse to there having been new stuff in the Prequels. Of course, there had to be. But the overall aesthetic as well as specific details ought to have connected with ANH. at least a bit. There was none of the ‘used universe’ in the Prequels, and as mentioned above, key details just didn’t align. The term ‘retro’ doesn’t just apply to the look of it.

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George should just disappear quietly. No one needs to hear from him.