Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 216

pablumatic said:

I mentioned this in my review of the movie in the review thread, but this movie’s biggest sin is taking the happy ending of Return of the Jedi away. Effectively retconning it out of existence.

While I still like the movie for what it is, a Star Wars film made by fans of Star Wars, I’ll probably end up considering it along the likes of Expanded Universe tales. Old EU already ripped away the happy end to Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens is no different in that regard. The only difference is this tale is extremely expensive and stars (or cameos) the original protagonist actors.

It’s true that we never see the happy aftermath. But, as far as we know, there were times of relative peace. The Republic seems largely demilitarized if the destruction of a few key planets was enough to weaken it so substantially, indicating that it was probably very much peacetime until these events with the First Order, Knights of Ren, etc took place.

Even though the new EU does indicate that the war was not simply ended by the destruction of the second Death Star, it did indeed serve as the important blow that led to its unraveling. At the beginning of TFA, the remnants of the Empire were not in charge of the galaxy, so I don’t see anything being undone, unless you believed the events in RoTJ would completely secure peace in the galaxy for hundreds of years, etc.

Based on the direction Disney is going with this after watching the film, I wouldn’t be surprised if Rey turned out to be Luke Skywalkers daughter.

pablumatic said:

Had there actually been a new threat to the galaxy, rather than just the Empire with a public relations name change and a large bucket of black paint for their spaceships, it would have worked better for me.

As it is, somehow the Rebels didn’t really win and the Empire managed to sneak off and make an even bigger Death Star.

My hope for the final two movies of this sequel trilogy is that we do finally see an end to the Empire/First Order. No jumping off point to more sequels with Stormtroopers and black robed figures with red lightsabers. At least give me that.

I understand what you’re saying, but history does repeat itself. After Alexander the Great died, his empire fell to pieces, often waring over power. In recent history, the Soviet Union fell, only to become something as powerful some twenty years later (Russia), who is, in some ways, succeeding in becoming the power it once was. In many ways, this is like the Empire falling, only to rise out of the ashes the First Order.

I can see how some folks would be upset about re-using the Death Star plot point; however, again, this mimics history. For example, modern nukes are many times more powerful than the A-bombs used during WWII. But are they not essentially the same weapon, only far more powerful (much like the Starkiller Base is in TFA)? Why wouldn’t the First Order want a weapon as powerful as that? And who is to say building such a weapon wasn’t a ploy (and a plot device in the next two films) to lure Luke from hiding?

Last, I have read folks complaining about the Galaxy “forgetting” history in TFA. This again can have roots in reality. There are societies with totalitarian regimes who recreate history on a whim (North Korea, anyone?). Is it not plausible that the First Order, with its power and influence can and would attempt to rewrite history for some (Finn) and erase it altogether for others (Rey)?

Like I said in a previous post, I DID NOT leave TPM in '99 ecstatic. I remember feeling dread and thinking how bored I was. And, although I never bashed the film, I never found much to defend about it, unlike the way I feel about TFA.

Random rant:

This movie makes me so happy. I must say I honestly love how much of a phenomenon it is. Almost everyone I know has seen it. Christmas parties were actually fun this year because I had something exciting to talk about! The crazy thing to is, I have yet to meet someone who isn’t head over heels in love with it. Like, whenever someone asks me what I feel about it, I’m a little hesitant to come right out with my love for it because I don’t want people to think I’m hyperbolizing, but then I find they loved it as much as me. Honestly, the only people I’ve heard dislike it are people on the internet (this site specifically). Every single person I know in real life who has seen it has loved it. It’s crazy, but t’s true, and somehow it makes me so happy (I had a two hour phone call with an old friend about the movie last week). Star Wars is bringing people together. That’s exactly what it does best.

Anchorhead said:
My point with quoting and responding in this manner isn’t to be dickish. It’s to show that those points could easily be applied to the real world.

If we’re talking about how threats appear in Star Wars, I remember George Lucas saying there were parallels between U.S. foreign policy in Vietnam and Iraq when compared to the rise of and actions of the Empire. With a not-so-covert statement on it all in Revenge of the Sith. Rag-tag groups of terrorists/freedom fighters/insurgents weren’t the idea behind it.

Abrams has gone on to say the First Order are basically Nazis somehow rising out of their hideouts in Argentina. It didn’t happen in the real world and its equally implausible in the Star Wars universe.

If there’s a new trilogy after this one, I want a new threat. One that doesn’t diminish previous movies.

Yeah, it’s not the overly optimistic ending of Jedi where evil is destroyed forever, but honestly some of us don’t like that about Jedi. You can never really get rid of evil. Max talks about it in the film. First the Sith, then the Empire, now the First Order. Evil will always be out there (as it is in the real world), but we can’t just run away. We must face them.

There is a strangeness to it, when you take it as a sequel to Jedi. The problem is, of course, that there was 30 years in between. Typically this would not be the story that would follow the story in Jedi. Jedi sets up the destruction of the Empire, the rise of the new, good power (Rebellion/Republic), and that Luke will be passing on what he has learned. That’s what someone would reasonable expect in a ROTJ follow up. And it’s not like those things didn’t happen - they did, just off screen. It feels like, to me anyway, that there’s a whole other trilogy that happened before TFA and after ROTJ (detailing the beginning of the New Republic and New Jedi Academy and all the way through the rise of the First Order/Resistance and Ben’s turn to the dark side and Jedi Purge). I suppose it’s similar to the OT - there it feels like there could’ve have been a whole trilogy that came before. Now obviously they made that trilogy as the PT but here in TFA we don’t get that in-between so the surprises and mystery of the backstory is restored much like in the OT. In that way, TFA and the ST truly feels like a new Star Wars trilogy for a new generation (unlike the PT which… well you know).

Anyway it’s a story I’m eager to read (whenever they decide it’s okay to make books/comics in that era - unfortunately probably post-EpIX).

emanswfan said:

Listening to the soundtrack last night, thanks Amazon.

Definitely better than John William’s PT scores and right up there with the originals. The score has such a freshness and familiarity at the same time

I couldn’t agree less. This for me was the weakest Star Wars score. Even the crappiest prequel moments had memorable themes. The only motifs that I recognised were from the OT.

So who is this Smoke then? Someone new or a mask concealing someone very old?

Bingowings said:

The only motifs that I recognised were from the OT.

Well wouldn’t they have to be?

ZkinandBonez said:

Well, seems like the TFA Blu-ray/DVD will be released April 5, 2016.
Abrams have also said that a good portion of the deleted scenes will be made available.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2015/12/star-wars-the-force-awakens-blu-ray-aiming-at-april-5-2016-release-date.html

I hope that bit from the novelization where Leia sends an envoy to the senate on Hosnian Prime is in there. I think that one scene would clear up a lot of the vagueness about the state of the galaxy that a lot of folks have problems with.