The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 28

John Doom said:

-Kylo Ren is not a good villain: he’s weak, “emo”, with probably everyone in the movie making fun of him 😄 (also, he shouldn’t had his helmet off before Rey: seeing him as an actual human, just a boy, not even menacing, further weakens his character);

Disagree strongly. The fact that he’s just a boy but so conflicted and with such power makes him actually really scary, but in a different way than the traditional Vader-type.

-the final sequence ends abruptly, just with a few close ups and barely any music;

Don’t get this at all. Thought the end was perfect. Barely any music? Are you serious? It was all music (and beautiful music at that).

In addition to Dom’s post there, which I agree with and was about to post before he beat me too it, did you have any problem with Luke’s quick progression with the Force in ANH? I see no difference. Also, I don’t see how the characters were clichè or not fleshed out.

DominicCobb said:
Disagree strongly. The fact that he’s just a boy but so conflicted and with such power makes him actually really scary, but in a different way than the traditional Vader-type.

Some of us will also disagree with you strongly. Maybe this is an age thing, but I don’t think there is nothing intimidating about an emo boy sniffling over how unfair his life is. This is emo melodrama at its absolute worst.

I saw TFA that opening Friday night and mentioned to my companions that Kylo was really good, much better than I expected until holy hell he took his mask off and ruined it. The next night I took my 17 year old brother, and without being prompted he told me the exact same thing after the movie was over.

My only thought was that if my 17 year old brother thought this guy was something out of Twilight, then the unmasking of his character must be really really bad.

John Doom said:

You’re right that there actually was music, I chose the wrong words, I’m sorry. What I mean is that, to me, that music wasn’t as moving as any of the other star wars’ ending themes.

Fair enough. Here’s the offending piece by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUBUlKgsNK8

You have to admit that’s at least more moving than ROTJ (Yub Nub or Victory Celebration).

Alderaan said:

DominicCobb said:
Disagree strongly. The fact that he’s just a boy but so conflicted and with such power makes him actually really scary, but in a different way than the traditional Vader-type.

Some of us will also disagree with you strongly. Maybe this is an age thing, but I don’t think there is nothing intimidating about an emo boy sniffling over how unfair his life is. This is emo melodrama at its absolute worst.

It’s one thing if he’s just sniffling over it, it’s another thing if he’s got a lightsaber and killing his father (amongst all the countless others). I can’t help but think about his implied massacre of Luke’s Jedi Academy - there’s a real school shooter vibe there. I don’t think that’s very funny at all.

An age thing?

I should just stop reading this thread.

TV’s Frink said:

An age thing?

I should just stop reading this thread.

I don’t have any particular interest in pubescent coming of age stories, but I can suggest some other emo melodrama reading material if you’re interested.

Abrams made a conscious decision to have Ren look younger (Driver usually sports a beard) and I think Hux was supposed to be an old guy at first. Hux is interesting and scary too. When you watch the Death Star briefing scene, you get the idea that a lot of those officers are probably in it for the money or the power. But Hux is like a Hitler youth. He’s not in it for himself, he’s in it for the cause. He actually believes the First Order is right and just - that’s scary.

DominicCobb said:
It’s one thing if he’s just sniffling over it, it’s another thing if he’s got a lightsaber and killing his father (amongst all the countless others). I can’t help but think about his implied massacre of Luke’s Jedi Academy - there’s a real school shooter vibe there. I don’t think that’s very funny at all.

How did he kill all of these Jedi trainees when he couldn’t even kill one who was untrained?

There is no consistent logic in the world created by Abrams and co. TFA has no consistent internal logic. The characters don’t have consistent motivation or characterizations.

Alderaan said:

DominicCobb said:
It’s one thing if he’s just sniffling over it, it’s another thing if he’s got a lightsaber and killing his father (amongst all the countless others). I can’t help but think about his implied massacre of Luke’s Jedi Academy - there’s a real school shooter vibe there. I don’t think that’s very funny at all.

How did he kill all of these Jedi trainees when he couldn’t even kill one who was untrained?

Many possible reasons. He had help (from the other Knights of Ren we see in the force vision). They were unsuspecting. They were kids. He was the only one with a lightsaber (speculation - did Luke not teach them how to make lightsabers? why was Kylo’s so unstable/why don’t any of the other Knights have one?). He hadn’t been shot by a bowcaster.

DominicCobb said:

Abrams made a conscious decision to have Ren look younger (Driver usually sports a beard) and I think Hux was supposed to be an old guy at first. Hux is interesting and scary too. When you watch the Death Star briefing scene, you get the idea that a lot of those officers are probably in it for the money or the power. But Hux is like a Hitler youth. He’s not in it for himself, he’s in it for the cause. He actually believes the First Order is right and just - that’s scary.

I was more than OK with Adam Driver in this film for the most part. Until he was unmasked, I liked his character much more than I thought I was going to. I would say that up until he was unmasked, his performance was one of the strongest parts of the film. That said, when he took off the mask he was not intimidating or convincing. Either keep it on or cast someone else in that kind of role.

As for Hux (Domnhall Gleeson), he gave one of the two worst performances in the entire film. His acting, if you can call it that, was cartoonish. The only thing missing was him twirling his evil villain mustache, but that’s simply because he didn’t look old enough to even grow one. Some of the casting decisions in this film were incredulous. As much as youth was needed in some parts (Daisy in particular was fantastic) other parts called for age and experience. How does someone who looks 25 get to be the senior most military commander in something like the First Order? Except for Harrison Ford, whose salary basically forced the entire script to be unnecessarily written around him, who else gave an experienced and nuanced performance? Where were the Alec Guinesses, Peter Cushings, James Earl Jones’s, and Kenneth Colleys in this film?

Alderaan said:

DominicCobb said:

Abrams made a conscious decision to have Ren look younger (Driver usually sports a beard) and I think Hux was supposed to be an old guy at first. Hux is interesting and scary too. When you watch the Death Star briefing scene, you get the idea that a lot of those officers are probably in it for the money or the power. But Hux is like a Hitler youth. He’s not in it for himself, he’s in it for the cause. He actually believes the First Order is right and just - that’s scary.

I was more than OK with Adam Driver in this film for the most part. Until he was unmasked, I liked his character much more than I thought I was going to. I would say that up until he was unmasked, his performance was one of the strongest parts of the film. That said, when he took off the mask he was not intimidating or convincing. Either keep it on or cast someone else in that kind of role.

That’s the point, though. He’s not intimidating without the mask - that’s why he wears it. Driver typically has a beard and looks very much his age (32). He very purposefully looks younger than that here. The problem is you’re thinking the “kind of role” is a Darth Vader type. It’s not. It’s someone who wants to be Darth Vader. It’s a different kind of role.

As for Hux (Domnhall Gleeson), he gave one of the two worst performances in the entire film. His acting, if you can call it that, was cartoonish. The only thing missing was him twirling his evil villain mustache, but that’s simply because he didn’t look old enough to even grow one. Some of the casting decisions in this film were incredulous. As much as youth was needed in some parts (Daisy in particular was fantastic) other parts called for age and experience. How does someone who looks 25 get to be the senior most military commander in something like the First Order? Except for Harrison Ford, whose salary basically forced the entire script to be unnecessarily written around him, who else gave an experienced and nuanced performance? Where were the Alec Guinesses, Peter Cushings, James Earl Jones’s, and Kenneth Colleys in this film?

Did you read my post? He’s supposed to be a Hitler youth type (uber-dedicated to the cause, shooting up through the ranks at a young age). Gleeson, like Driver, usually has a beard (and is also 32). He is supposed to look young here. The First Order is not the Empire. Hux is not Tarkin.

DominicCobb said:
That’s the point, though. He’s not intimidating without the mask - that’s why he wears it. Driver typically has a beard and looks very much his age (32). He very purposefully looks younger than that here. The problem is you’re thinking the “kind of role” is a Darth Vader type. It’s not. It’s someone who wants to be Darth Vader. It’s a different kind of role.

So you are conceding then that this film has no threatening villain? There is no villain or obstacle that the heroes must overcome against all the odds in order to succeed? There are just placeholder enemies that only get in the way for two hours until the protagonist remembers her secret powers that she forgot for the first two hours of the film.

Does anyone else think that is good or effective storytelling?

DominicCobb said:
Did you read my post? He’s supposed to be a Hitler youth type (uber-dedicated to the cause, shooting up through the ranks at a young age). Gleeson, like Driver, usually has a beard (and is also 32). He is supposed to look young here. The First Order is not the Empire. Hux is not Tarkin.

See above. I think you are trying to argue that the filmmakers did exactly what they wanted to; and I am arguing that they apparently have no idea how to tell a story.

That is consistent with my criticism of this film. JJ Abrams did give us some “fun” scenes and sequences. The movie does have more heart and spirit than the prequels, it’s better than those films. We aren’t watching whole movies where people just walk and talk, sit down and talk, walk and talk some more, mixed with wildly inconsistent tone.

TFA is better than any other Star Wars movie in the last 32 years.

However, from a storytelling aspect, I think the movie was atrociously bad. Poorly designed and poorly executed.

Alderaan said:

DominicCobb said:
That’s the point, though. He’s not intimidating without the mask - that’s why he wears it. Driver typically has a beard and looks very much his age (32). He very purposefully looks younger than that here. The problem is you’re thinking the “kind of role” is a Darth Vader type. It’s not. It’s someone who wants to be Darth Vader. It’s a different kind of role.

So you are conceding then that this film has no threatening villain?

Just because he doesn’t look intimidating doesn’t mean he’s not threatening.

Well, that’s probably why we see this film in different lights. For most of two hours I watched Kylo appear physically strong, mentally strong, and force-strong. Then at the end of the film he was suddenly having a mental breakdown and appeared physically weak, mentally weak, and force-weak.

If the next two films are about showing us this poor misunderstood boy’s tender heart, and how he’s really a good boy on the inside, and he was just tricked by some mysterious monster in the shadows, are there any people who will be happy to have watched the ST?

I just got back from my third viewing and I have found that most of the nitpicks I had the first time around have bothered me less and less on each subsequent viewing. The exact opposite effect of what happened upon watching the prequels multiple times in my experience. It was also the first viewing for my wife who enjoys the movies, but I wouldn’t classify her as a Star Wars fan and she enjoyed it thoroughly. I am really starting to dig the music now that I am becoming more familiar with it. I am already counting down the days to see where the next episode takes us.

Alderaan said:

Well, that’s probably why we see this film in different lights. For most of two hours I watched Kylo appear physically strong, mentally strong, and force-strong. Then at the end of the film he was suddenly having a mental breakdown and appeared physically weak, mentally weak, and force-weak.

Physically weak? I thought it is pretty clear that he was severely wounded from when Chewy shot him with the bowcaster, so sure he is definitely weakened from a physical standpoint. Mental breakdown? He just killed his own father who apparently still loved him enough to caress his face after he rammed a lightsaber straight through his heart, so I am sure he actually did have a lot going on in his head. Force weak? Didn’t he use the force to slam Rey into a tree? Could someone who was weak in the force do that? He couldn’t pull the saber away, but maybe the saber had a bit of a mind of it’s own as well since it was calling to Rey earlier in the film. Also, perhaps the fact that he was physically weakened and mentally shaken was hindering his ability to properly focus and channel the force at that time as well.

Then in that battle he proceeds to critically injure Finn who has been trained to be a warrior since he was an infant with his lightsaber with relative ease. He also made it clear he wanted to take Rey under his wing and teach her so you could argue he wasn’t trying to murder her and he was caught off guard by her skills when she really started using the force.

Isn’t it also written into his character that he isn’t fully trained and fears that he will never be as powerful as Vader?

If the next two films are about showing us this poor misunderstood boy’s tender heart, and how he’s really a good boy on the inside, and he was just tricked by some mysterious monster in the shadows, are there any people who will be happy to have watched the ST?

I’d rather they didn’t go in this direction, but if they do it will all depend on if it is executed well or not. If it is done well I am sure I will have little problem with it.

hydrospanner said:
Physically weak? I thought it is pretty clear that he was severely wounded from when Chewy shot him with the bowcaster, so sure he is definitely weakened from a physical standpoint.

I was speaking more about his physical appearance when he took off the mask. He was, shall we say … less than intimidating. But to your point about him being wounded…

First of all, even if he were wounded, that is terrible storytelling. Chewie shot him with a blaster and so our protagonist, Rey, only gets to defeat a weakened version of the villain? That is awful storytelling.

Second of all, I would contend that he was evidently not wounded enough to prevent him from running and spinning and jumping and twirling about with his lightsaber.
All of that is the worst of storytelling.

hydrospanner said:
Mental breakdown? He just killed his own father who apparently still loved him enough to caress his face after he rammed a lightsaber straight through his heart, so I am sure he actually did have a lot going on in his head.

Did you miss the part when he took off his mask and dropped it to the ground? The part when he told his father he didn’t want to be a bad guy anymore and asked for help?

I would say he was having an identity crisis.

hydrospanner said:
Force weak? Didn’t he use the force to slam Rey into a tree? Could someone who was weak in the force do that?

That was force strong and consistent with his character. When he suddenly stopped using the force and got his ass kicked later in the fight, that was force-weak. All of that buildup, showing him stopping blaster bolts in mid-air, freezing people in place, throwing them against trees … where was it when he was suddenly threatened?

hydrospanner said:
He also made it clear he wanted to take Rey under his wing and teach her so you could argue he wasn’t trying to murder her and he was caught off guard by her skills when she really started using the force.

This was all great up until a point. He should have been momentarily caught off guard and then the chasm should have separated them … saving Rey, not Kylo. It still would have been a dues-ex-machina ending, but at least better from a storytelling perspective than the one we were given.

Alderaan said:

hydrospanner said:
Physically weak? I thought it is pretty clear that he was severely wounded from when Chewy shot him with the bowcaster, so sure he is definitely weakened from a physical standpoint.

I was speaking more about his physical appearance when he took off the mask. He was, shall we say … less than intimidating. But to your point about him being wounded…

Well Darth Vader wasn’t quite as intimidating when he took his mask off either…

First of all, even if he were wounded, that is terrible storytelling. Chewie shot him with a blaster and so our protagonist, Rey, only gets to defeat a weakened version of the villain? That is awful storytelling.

Second of all, I would contend that he was evidently not wounded enough to prevent him from running and spinning and jumping and twirling about with his lightsaber.
All of that is the worst of storytelling.

I don’t see why it is such awful storytelling? Would you rather have had him be completely crippled by his wound? Or would you rather have him lose at full strength? I think both those alternatives would have made for a far worse story.

hydrospanner said:
Mental breakdown? He just killed his own father who apparently still loved him enough to caress his face after he rammed a lightsaber straight through his heart, so I am sure he actually did have a lot going on in his head.

Did you miss the part when he took off his mask and dropped it to the ground? The part when he told his father he didn’t want to be a bad guy anymore and asked for help?

I would say he was having an identity crisis.

When did he say he didn’t want to be a bad guy anymore? He did say he was torn I believe. I am understanding it as the help he was seeking was for Han to let him kill him to get help rid the feeling of the call to the light he spoke of earlier.

hydrospanner said:
Force weak? Didn’t he use the force to slam Rey into a tree? Could someone who was weak in the force do that?

That was force strong and consistent with his character. When he suddenly stopped using the force and got his ass kicked later in the fight, that was force-weak. All of that buildup, showing him stopping blaster bolts in mid-air, freezing people in place, throwing them against trees … where was it when he was suddenly threatened?

I think this is nitpicking and you could ask the same questions of consistency of force use in the OT. Why didn’t Vader just force choke Luke from his fighter during the trench run? Why didn’t Vader just grab Luke with the force when he took the dive at Bespin and pull him back up just like when he just used the force to toss all those heavy metal objects at Luke a few minutes ago? Why didn’t the Emperor who sensed everything sense Vader about to turn and pick him up before he tossed him down the shaft and zap him before he was able to? Probably because it wouldn’t have made for a very fulfilling story.

hydrospanner said:
He also made it clear he wanted to take Rey under his wing and teach her so you could argue he wasn’t trying to murder her and he was caught off guard by her skills when she really started using the force.

This was all great up until a point. He should have been momentarily caught off guard and then the chasm should have separated them … saving Rey, not Kylo. It still would have been a dues-ex-machina ending, but at least better from a storytelling perspective than the one we were given.

Maybe this would have been better. I kind of like the idea of it ending in a stalemate, but I don’t have a problem with the way it was presented.