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Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 215

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The casting choice becomes even more interesting.

The Rise of Failures

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TavorX said:

The Force Awakens does what we fans have always wanted. We wanted STAR WARS!

I had Star Wars before the ST was ever announced. It consisted of two great movies, one passable movie, and several comics and novels (most of which were published before the release of TPM).

I didn’t want anything more; I still don’t.

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DuracellEnergizer said:
I had Star Wars before the ST was ever announced. It consisted of two great movies, one passable movie, and several comics and novels (most of which were published before the release of TPM).

Badly worded and conveyed on my part, I’ll admit that. Of course we have Star Wars, it will always be there. I meant that, with so many complaints of the Prequels not really being Star Wars, and then finally getting a film that has its roots close as it possibly can in the modern era, TFA arguably pulls that off. No, I am not making a claim whatsoever that TFA is some great film that can now reign king over the OT. I simply saying, for the people that wanted more Star Wars, were let down by the Prequels, well, TFA does a pretty decent job.

For the crowd that only believes Star Wars is STAR WARS 1977, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi, hey, I can totally understand that. I’m not really talking to those people. However, I’m speaking to the people that are okay with stuff beyond those originals, which is why I brought up the Knights of the Old Republic video game. It has many elements and even rehashes some plot points of the originals, and yet, it’s one of the most highly praised games.

The Rise of Failures

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Smoking Lizard said:

And so, rinse and repeat. Here we are today, with an equally bad movie. As critics point out the laughably ridiculous flaws, defenders rush in with contrived ad hoc reasoning to “explain it all away,” and, even better, launch all sorts of ad hominem attacks against the critics.

Sigh

Smoking Lizard said:

TavorX said:

Finally, all these years later, when we see TFA, I couldn’t believe it. He was laughing, tearing up, and genuinely looked like he was having a blast! So I dunno man, for as long as I’ve known my dad, he never bought into that hype of the prequels. Did he recognize the flaws of TFA? Sure. But overall, we were geeking out over the film of how fun it was!

Emphasis added. I suspect your father is in his 40s. That’s when us older guys really start getting overwhelmed by the awareness of our own mortality. Our children are now adults. The fun times of our own childhoods are long gone. Old age is fast approaching us. When we were young, two years seemed like an eternity. Now, we remind ourselves, “I really need to get a new battery for my watch,” and then suddenly realize, “Holy crap! My watch went dead two years ago!”

Your father was suffering the cruel tugs of nostalgia. Nothing more. And that’s what so terribly gratuitous about this movie: It’s nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia.

contrived ad hoc reasoning to “explain it all away,”

and, even better, launch all sorts of ad hominem attacks

hmmmm

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Gee, can smoke lizard and duracell make about another few dozen spaz post about this movie? I’m still not sure if they like it or not.

Tell me about the lightsaber colors, George.

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joefavs said:

Looks like the second IMAX poster was finally released. There was so much time between them that I honestly forgot this was even going to be a thing.http://www.imax.com/sites/default/files/IMAXAMC_DanMumford_2of4.jpg

I’m digging them. Really nice to see a style so far removed from the usual. They give the image room to breathe.

Joe, I logged in specifically to post this second one for you. Good job, sir. 😉

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While I appreciate the use of Latin to sound educated in your arguments/attacks; Lizard and Duracell, you might want to take a few moments away from the discussion.

That’s a hint, fellas.

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I’ll throw my hat in and make it simple.

FINALLY, after 32 years, there is a FOURTH Star Wars film.

It’s really sad when the “creative minds” behind something we hold dear are also guilty of its destruction.

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Verboten said:

Gee, can smoke lizard and duracell make about another few dozen spaz post about this movie? I’m still not sure if they like it or not.

Tell me about the lightsaber colors, George.

The number of “spaz posts” I’ve made directly pertaining to this movie can literally be continued on two hands – all but one of which were posted last week, when I was in a particularily crappy mood – so take your goddamn strawman arguments about lightsaber colours elsewhere.

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Would everybody please chill out? Temp bans are on the table if certain people don’t improve their attitude.

And Duracell, if you haven’t seen the movie yet, posting in this thread could be misconstrued as trolling.

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Where were you in '77?

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Very well said. I was eighteen when TPM came out, and wanted to like it. I remember thinking throughout the film, “This isn’t very good”. I even remember being embarrassed. I never felt that way with TFA.

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Also, I suggest to anyone to read the TFA novel. There is a lot of nuggets to chew on which fill in major gaps the film left out.

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Spoiler warning: This article assumes you have seen The Force Awakens

This article is from my blog The White Tower, by David A. Caruso II

THE NEW STAR WARS FILM CASTS A DARK SHADOW

This article is for those who, like me, are inspired by the original spirit of Star Wars, the spirit which came alive in the first two films, A New Hope (ANH) and the The Empire Strikes Back (ESB). I will explore what the original essence of Star Wars is (in my personal opinion) and how the new film, The Force Awakens (TFA), is a corrupting shadow over that spirit.

This is not a review of TFA per se, but rather a discussion of its spirit compared to the original spirit of Star Wars. Please note I am not trying to speak for everyone. My views represent my own personal experience of the films, which I would like to share with those who may be interested.

As a child, Star Wars was for me a kind of spiritual experience. The inspiration, the dream, may be best expressed in the one poignant scene where Luke Skywalker, wishing for a greater life than the one he felt duty-bound to on his uncle’s farm, gazed and searched upon the horizon as the two suns of his home planet set. That moment resonated a lot for me. It’s an example of the symbolism and mythos that makes up Star Wars and serves to create a seed of inspiration and personal mythology in the viewer.

The Original Spirit of Star Wars
What is the original essence of Star Wars? For me, it was about freedom. It was the inspiration to fight for a just cause, to believe in something greater than yourself. It was highlighting the mystery of the power that is dormant within every human being. It was the potential, and the hope, for a greater sense of personal empowerment and liberation. It was the sense of wonder in feeling that there are aspects of life and the Universe that were completely unexplored and unknown. It was about a life living true to the heart, about friendship, and about personal development. It was about liberation from the sense of oppression that comes from the world today in various forms such as society, television, school, church, parents, etc. It was freedom from all those things. It was about living with the fire of inspiration in the imagination. Like I said, it was about freedom – freedom to live the mystery, the freedom to fight for the things one loves.

Each of the main characters in Star Wars expressed some particular aspect of this spirit, particularly in their attitudes, inclinations, and philosophy of life. What follows below is my own personal extrapolation about each character, taking from the actions of the character in the films while also filling in details from my own ideas, feelings, and personal projections.

Obiwan Kenobi
Obiwan Kenobi was the archetype of the wise old man who was fully in touch with the invisible mysteries of the Universe. Despite the problems imposed upon him, he acted selflessly in the service of the larger humanity. Despite the greatness of his stature, he was humble and gentle and courageous and always had a clear sense of purpose. Those who had humility (Luke Skywalker) could recognize him. Those who lacked humility (Han Solo) did not recognize him. He was also, more than anyone, responsible for the defeat against the evil Empire in ANH, because he gathered together the people who could accomplish that task (Luke and Han), brought them out to meet their destiny, gave them the freedom to accomplish their purpose (by securing their release from the Empire), and, in the end, providing Luke Skywalker with the critical moment of grace needed to destroy the accursed space station, thus protecting the freedom and well-being of countless others from harm and oppression. And he did so without any acknowledgement from others for himself. In this way, he embodies the true Jedi Master (which may be likened to a combination of monk and noble knight), because in order to be large in spirit, one must have spiritual qualities like patience, stillness, gentleness, humility, inner strength, concentration, clarity of purpose, control of emotions, etc.

Luke Skywalker
The most notable thing about Luke Skywalker is his passion for justice and for his allegiance to others who share his values. This is one reason he so intensely wanted to join the Rebel Alliance. The other reason is his genuine desire for knowledge and self development, which is the hallmark of the spiritual warrior. And being part of the Rebel cause gave him opportunities to grow as a warrior and to fight for dharma (which is to say, fight for the good of all and for a good society).

Dharma is symbolized by the values of the “Republic” which – though details are lacking in ANH and ESB – must represent a culture that is based on ethics, personal freedom, and prosperity for all. In other words, it is a civilization that is based on higher principles and a certain fundamental sense of selflessness. Luke Skywalker in his heart only wanted to learn about and fight for these higher principles. That is why he stays on the path to become a Jedi and never wavers in his fight against the regime that is oppressing humanity. And it is also why he will always risk his own life for his friends. One of the axioms of the spiritual warrior is never let your friends face danger alone.

Han Solo
Han Solo is passionately independent, and at first, he is arrogant and egoistic, but quickly learns to be humble and therefore opens his life up to new possibilities when he meets with the Rebels and joins their cause. Han Solo is marked by two primary qualities, in my view. One, is his love for his ship, which represents and empowers his passionate need for freedom and self-determination. Secondly, he is someone possessed of courage who has a penchant, like the whole Rebel cause, for taking on enemies much more powerful than himself – and winning! He goes up against a dozen storm troopers in ANH, and he single-handedly takes on the whole imperial fleet in ESB. In ANH, his passionate loyalty to his friends is awakened, and at the end of that film, he puts aside his own personal interest to protect his friend Luke and help advance the whole Rebel cause of freedom for all.

Princes Leia
Princess Leia is noted for her courage and steadfastness to her cause, and the strength of her mind in resisting all attempts to make her betray the Rebel alliance. She is a political leader of unwavering commitment to her cause. She is a prime organizer and mover of the Rebel alliances fight against the Empire. The love she shared with her friends, and with Han Solo, showed the depth of the feelings in her heart. As with all the characters, the fire of love burns in their hearts – love for each other, for their personal purpose, for the good of all and for higher principles.

Darth Vader
Even Darth Vader, the powerful and dominating villain, has a certain qualities which are admirable. Despite his dark mind and his work in extending the oppression of the Empire, he is notable for his clarity of purpose and his strength and steadfastness in achieving it. In this way, he is possessed of strong will. And everything that Darth Vader does is very deliberate. He keeps his emotions very much under control, channeling them towards the increase of his power. One thing can be said, Darth Vader is not trivial. The evil aspect of his nature lies primarily with his commitment to using force in every situation. He cannot tolerate deviation in his external environment. This obviously would create a great tension in any human being who takes such a path, due to the inherent conflict with spirit, but no doubt this tension becomes a source of energy that can be channeled towards increasing his power with the dark side of the Force. However, in real life, such tension may provide an increase in power for the ego, but ultimately it subsumes and brings the mind down to a more primitive level.

One might think I am reading too much into these characters, but that would be missing the point. The point is in identifying and amplifying heroic traits that could technically exist in anybody, and which are latent in the human race as a whole. My observations are based on what I experience within me as a result of the films, and are, as such, based on much more than simply the films themselves. Good art evokes an inner awareness of aspects of life that are at once personal and collective at the same time, the experience of which exceeds the specific art itself.

The Sense of Wonder and Imagination
The early Star Wars films had this sense of purpose, mystery, and imagination. They were inspiring to so many people because of the power with which they evoked these qualities. And the thing about Star Wars was not just in what it expressed, but what it didn’t express. This is why someone like me can even fill in the meanings of the story based on his own subjective interpretation. It’s because Star Wars allows room for this creative interplay of imagination. It doesn’t just tell you everything, matter of factly. It inspires the imagination. It inspires the mind to fill in the unknown parts with its own inner sense of life. And that’s what makes Star Wars fun and memorable. It gives you a chance, however vicarious, to feel and live such principles to some degree within. This is not just partly because Star Wars has certain mythological elements that speak to something larger than itself.

How The Force Awakens Compares
Now turning to the new film, The Force Awakens, which was created not by the original creator of Star Wars, but a giant, well-established corporation interested in making as much profit as possible. This no doubt stands in contrast to the motivation of George Lucas when he created the first Star Wars film. Lucas was more interested in realizing his personal vision and enduring the risk of failure than in guaranteeing profits. Perhaps this is why his films were actually so profitable – it’s because they were sincere. Films that are made with motives other than art for art’s sake are never memorable in the long term.

The spirit of TFA is an altogether different beast. All the films taken together, TFA corrupts the original inspiration of Star Wars in manys ways. For one, it draws its plot and character elements almost exclusively from the original Sar Wars films, which shows its own lack of imagination and originality (outstanding special effects aside). But there is also a more insidious distorting of the original Star Wars spirit. The following will attempt to describe some of the ways in which this happens.

The Happy Ending of the Originals
At the end of Return of the Jedi (ROJ), there was a great feeling of hope and victory because the great power which was oppressing humanity (symbolized as all intelligent life of diverse forms) was destroyed. This represents a happy ending to the original three Star Wars films. The resonate elements of Star Wars, the fight against a harming power, the rise of personal empowerment and freedom, are given positive conclusions. The Empire is destroyed, the Galaxy is free again, and the noble Jedi – protectors of dharma – have returned and are empowered. Listen to JRR Tolkien speak of the importance of a happy ending in any tale (i.e. “fairy story”):

“It is the mark of a good fairy-story, of the higher or more complete kind, that however wild its events, however fantastic or terrible the adventures, it can give to child or man that hears it, when the “turn” comes, a catch of the breath, a beat and lifting of the heart, near to (or indeed accompanied by) tears, as keen as that given by any form of literary art, and having a peculiar quality.”

But in TFA, the happy conclusion of the original Star Wars trilogy is upended. With nary a respite, the evil Empire has immediately risen up again in a new and even more cruel form.

Destruction of the Republic
And what’s worse, instead of the Republic being strengthened and prospering again, it is completely destroyed outright in the new film, in a few seconds, at the push of a button. And its destruction is done without forethought, without foreboding, as if an almost relatively minor plot point in the general flow of the film. This is an extremely cynical move on the part of the creators of the film.

The Jedi Are In Exile
What’s more, the Jedi have not “returned” but have gone back into exile – by their own choice! – as Luke Skywalker has apparently done, running away and hiding himself on an unknown planet. This is, of course, completely contrary to Luke’s character in the original films, in which he is someone who never gives up on his cause and never abandons his friends. The Jedi are shown to be relatively weak in that one pupil who turns to an evil path can destroy them all and defeat the Master and cause him to go packing away into exile (for an example of how the Master is truly superior and unbeatable by the student, see Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon). Is it ironic, then, that towards the end of the film, he is defeated by one who is even less experienced and less taught than himself).

Whatever hope there was for the re-emergence of the Jedi – the ones who could protect freedom and justice for all – is lost in that the only remaining Jedi is in exile, unable to handle a situation created by someone who is not even his equal. The hope of the noble warrior, the Jedi –which was kindled in the original film trilogy – is marginalized in order to bring back the Empire and rehash the events of the earlier films. This is a somewhat arbitrary move which, though it makes a pretense of being a homage to the early films by following a similar structure, actually diverges profoundly from them in that it lacks all originality, and originality is part and parcel of the original films and their appeal.

Han and Leia’s Offspring Is a Monster
Another corrupting plot point: the passionate love of Han and Leia, as portrayed in ESB, has, apparently, given birth to a monster (Really? They do?), a monster which destroys the newly-awakened strength of good in the Galaxy. In this way, their relationship goes from being blessed (in that they both are fighters for freedom greatly advancing their cause) to being cursed (in that their relationship gives rise to a powerful and evil force which not only destroys freedom but destroys them as well – or at least Han Solo). For a son to cruelly kill his own father in a moment of trust and opening is an evil act which harms the sense of innocence of the viewer. Its casts a shadow in the mind of the Star Wars fan who would take in such an image and try to make sense of it in the context of a world which he has grown to love and was inspired by. Furthermore, it is a most ignoble and meaningless death for a revered character.

Being a Jedi Comes Easily
In TFA, the nature of the Jedi is trivialized in that the main heroine of the film, Rey (which is actually a man’s name if you haven’t actually read the name and don’t know the spelling – being short for Raymond), because she begins to gain mastery of the force without effort and without first learning to master her own mind. Part of the noble nature of the Jedi is possessing the self-control and faith necessary to remain on a long path of spiritual awakening and control of the mind. It is only through this kind of sacrifice that one could, theoretically, gain an increase in personal empowerment.

But Rey attains these things without having earned them, simply because she comes from a certain bloodline. Are the parents of the most talented people in the world as talented as their children turn out to be? Ultimatey, there is no relationship between inherent ability and ancestors. An ancestor may influence, but genes alone cannot pass along the vital spiritual nature of a human being. He or She acquires them from a source beyond our understanding.

That the Jedi powers rise in this manner – without sacrifice, without self-control, without insight or knowledge as to the nature of the mind – devalues the theoretical capabilities of a Jedi and thus weakens the whole notion of a Jedi and their early need for a certain amount of guidance, support, and self-discipline. It’s not powers that make a Jedi noble – it’s the arduous pursuit of the spiritual path and the control of the mind which do (at least that’s how I would understand the idea of a spiritual warrior).

Conclusion
The movie itself does not pause long enough to create a background of mystery and imagination. It essentially goes from one action scene to the next, and resurrects one old notion from the original films after another – which in the end may be seen as a kind of manipulative pandering to the audience.

If watching a good film is akin to enjoying a delicious and nutritious meal, watching TFA is akin to eating a box of tasty but over-sweetened donuts which only leaves one feeling empty afterwards. There’s no food for the spirit in the new film, there’s no mythological elements, there’s no room for depth of imagination. Everything is depicted in vivid detail, and the plot basically serves to string together the numerous action sequences. Once the thrill is over, there’s not much to take away. This was not true with the original films – whose legacy continues to endure and inspire, which is a rare thing for a film to do.

It’s doubtful that today’s children will be inspired by TFA enough to still feel the fire of that special magic into adulthood, as was the case with Lucas’ original films. Again, the power of a film to do this comes not solely from the content of the original Star Wars – it comes from the kind of context, the kind of space they created, the kind of things they leave out and leave open to the imagination. The original films provide fertile soil for the inspired imagination, so that the viewer can fill in the gaps with his own self. This is less true of the new film, which leaves little to the imagination and gives little by way of mythological inspiration. It’s a thrill without much originality or substance. And because it removes the sense of the happy ending which occurred at the end of ROJ, it also puts a dark shadow in the mind of all those for whom the Star Wars universe has a certain life of its own within.

The task now should be to separate the spirit of the original Star Wars from the new and to re-affirm its spirit. This can be done by imbibing other great mythologies and stories, and also by seeking a more personal and meaningful relationship to the Universe within, one based on one’s own sense of wonder and imagination, and the aspiration for a better world.

~O~

This text is copyright © December 2015 by David A. Caruso II

My blog, the White Tower: http://davidacarusoii.blogspot.com/

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I would have to firmly disagree that there’s little to take away from TFA. I believe the issue lies in older fans trying to insert their childhood memories and feelings into the newer films. It won’t work, and never will!

The prequels, despite being arguably junkier, still impactful on my childhood just as much as the OT. My imagination flourished. It greatly fueled me to draw, make things with my hands, act out what I saw on screen, and seek an amateur understanding of effects and film editing. Things are way different in the perspective of a child that an adult cannot see. Part of growing up though is realizing things cannot be the same. I would love to return back to child me where I could view all six Star Wars films equally, but realistically, that cannot happen.

Star Wars, even after all these years, will continue to ignite imaginations of children. Prequels couldn’t destroy Star Wars and neither will TFA.

As a quick side note, I arguably think Rey is just as deep as Luke from A New Hope. Luke yearns for adventure and freedom. Rey seeks psychological freedom from the past to move on. Both characters have something relatable.

That write up basically is saying the new films are ruining the childhood memories you had. This isn’t for you then; it’s for a new generation. Continue to watch if you want, but stop expecting it to reconstruct your past experiences. The Spirit lives on in different forms in the eye of the beholder.

The Rise of Failures

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I appreciate your points. There is some truth in that children are more open and may experience things a certain magical way because they are children. What I am saying though is that if you objectify a certain “spirit” which is in the original Star Wars, then that spirit is absent, in my opinion, in episodes 1-3 and 6-7. My original point is that it’s not about my childhood memories being ruined, it’s that there are certain values in the old films which are not present in the newer ones, and also not present in Return of the Jedi. There’s something unique and original and compelling in ANH and ESB. I try to express the nature of that spirit in my article. I guess I am saying there is something more objective, less subjective, than what you are suggesting. In other words, it’s not just because one is a child that ones likes something; in this case there are unique qualities which are absent in all Star Wars films after ESB. That’s my perception, anyway. It’s a strange paradox to be talking about something objective from a subjective viewpoint.

My blog, the White Tower: http://davidacarusoii.blogspot.com/

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SilverWook said:

And Duracell, if you haven’t seen the movie yet, posting in this thread could be misconstrued as trolling.

Thank you. I hope this applies to SmokingLizard as well.

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I mentioned this in my review of the movie in the review thread, but this movie’s biggest sin is taking the happy ending of Return of the Jedi away. Effectively retconning it out of existence.

While I still like the movie for what it is, a Star Wars film made by fans of Star Wars, I’ll probably end up considering it along the likes of Expanded Universe tales. Old EU already ripped away the happy end to Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens is no different in that regard. The only difference is this tale is extremely expensive and stars (or cameos) the original protagonist actors.

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With a galaxy as vast, with large assortment of alien species that far outnumber humans on Earth, with a diverse scale of planets, and a magical divine Force weaving the destiny of the Galaxy, can you really believe after Return of the Jedi that it’d stay magically happy go lucky forever…?

The more you try to think about it, the more it sounds kinda silly. Somehow, we have to assume every single individual and on every single planet said, “Okay, evil gone, time to all sing Yub Nub with forever peace!”

Really?

The Rise of Failures

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Had there actually been a new threat to the galaxy, rather than just the Empire with a public relations name change and a large bucket of black paint for their spaceships, it would have worked better for me.

As it is, somehow the Rebels didn’t really win and the Empire managed to sneak off and make an even bigger Death Star.

My hope for the final two movies of this sequel trilogy is that we do finally see an end to the Empire/First Order. No jumping off point to more sequels with Stormtroopers and black robed figures with red lightsabers. At least give me that.

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In the real world there are still admirers of the losing side in a certain World War, so that somebody idealizes and tries to recreate the Empire doesn’t surprise me. There were probably some systems that had it pretty good under the Empire, and would welcome a return to those days.

There was no way the entire Imperial fleet was at the battle of Endor, nor meekly surrendered once the Emperor was dead. Even Robot Chicken has pointed this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAOX_CHU0JY

And the wrecks on Jakku are proof that there were still battles fought for some period of time until a cold war style stalemate settled in.

The old Marvel comic tried having a larger alien threat move in on the Galaxy post ROTJ. It simply wasn’t as interesting as the Rebellion/Empire conflict. I did like the idea of the remaining Imperial forces joining with the Rebellion to fight the new bad guys. The conflict in Star Wars has always been the backdrop that smaller more personal battles play out in front of.

Or do we want another Trade Federation dispute? 😉

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Where were you in '77?

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Yeah I wouldn’t have seen ROTJ as the complete and utter end of the Empire, there was bound to be SOMEONE to want to take over what remains and try to keep on going if only for power/wealth/etc.

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ray_afraid said:

DavidACaruso said:

(a bunch of stuff and then…)
This text is copyright © December 2015 by David A. Caruso II

LOL!
You should end all of your posts this way.

I’m amazed he didn’t just link to his blog to get more hits. lol