The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 18

Making this can’t have been an easy task though. Making TFA right was a near impossible task to achieve. Make it too similar and people complain. Make it too original and people complain. The Starkiller thing isn’t a particularly good idea, but cinematically it works fine. Rey’s sudden growth with the Force is weird and rushed, but cinematically it worked fine. Also it would have been hard to sell this new trilogy if she spent three films learning at the same snail pace as Luke did. Also I think people would have complained then as well, because it too would have been something we’ve already seen. Regardless of how much some people hate the PT, and how indifferent Abrams seems to be towards it, they’ve made their mark on the franchise and that can’t be ignored.

I’d love to know how much creative control Abrams had over the cut once they started cutting down the 4 hour version. It wouldn’t surprise me if some Disney studio executive came in and told them to focus on the action, and only keep the bare necessities on the more emotional, character building parts.

It’s also kind of funny that we’re actually arguing about this at all, because no one’s ‘really’ disagreeing here. On some smaller, nitpicking points yes, definitely, but mostly we’re all in agreement. We all just seem to lean towards either accepting the strategic/unavoidable flaws, or condemning them.
More or less every review here, at least those that’s more than one paragraph, have pointed out the same flaws. People just deal with them in very different ways.

Rey’s transformation is NOT rushed because as I wrote a couple of pages ago:

Guys, am I taking crazy pills or did anyone not hear and see what was going on in that flashback? Obi-Wan says “Rey, these are your first steps.” Followed by the slaughter of the Jedi by the knights of Ren, followed by a shot of Rey being left on Jakku.

By using some simple logical deduction, Rey has had Jedi training and is being hidden from Ren. It’s when the force is used upon her for interrogation, that these repressed skills are awakened. This isn’t a “Mary Sue” moment where she’s suddenly able to do incredible things from nowhere. It’s different from Luke who had to start from scratch.

Alderaan said:

There is nothing like that in TFA. Rey’s force powers were all backloaded toward the end of the film. She doesn’t really struggle much or earn her successes. She fails at the Jedi mind trick once, but it’s more of a gag for the audience, because she immediately succeeds on her next try two seconds later. She summons the lightsaber past Kylo without any effort in the final duel, which is fine because I think it worked best cinematically that way, but there should have been earlier scene(s) to establish it.

I think this is indicative that her past includes Jedi training. She may have been at Luke’s academy, and was hidden on Jakku so Kylo couldn’t get her.

Alderaan said:

hydrospanner said:
What about when Luke pulled his saber with the force in the wampa cave? We hadn’t seen the force used like that yet and no on screen explanation is ever given to tell us how he knows how to do it.

I love, love, love talking about Empire, so I’m glad you brought it up, hydrospanner.

You’re right, at the time of the Wampa cave, we haven’t seen anyone do anything like that in the OT. It’s a big moment, and the film really takes its time with that scene and developing Luke’s ability. First he reaches like anyone might reach for a weapon nearby that they can’t quite get to. He’s fucked. But then he reaches again, and the thing starts to move. What is going on? Can he actually use the force to summon his lightsaber to him? He keeps trying and trying, and the Wampa gets closer and closer, the tension of the moment builds, and then boom he does it!

But it’s just a small object. We see his Force power skills tested over and over again throughout the rest of the movie, with the stakes getting bigger and bigger each time.

When Luke is on Dagobah, Yoda has him move not just one small object … but now he’s having to move many rocks and balance them on top of each other, all while standing upside down on his head.

Then later, Yoda instructs Luke to use the same force skill to lift the giant X-wing out of the swamp. Luke fails, and tells Yoda it’s impossible. Yoda shows him otherwise.

Then later, Vader uses the same skill to fling objects at Luke during their battle at Bespin.

Finally, Luke is hanging from the antennae underneath Cloud City, and he uses the Force to telepathically communicate with Leia.

See how well the use of his force skills was paced? And how he succeeded sometimes, and failed other times, and Yoda and Vader were foils who showed how much further he still had to go?

There is nothing like that in TFA. Rey’s force powers were all backloaded toward the end of the film. She doesn’t really struggle much or earn her successes. She fails at the Jedi mind trick once, but it’s more of a gag for the audience, because she immediately succeeds on her next try two seconds later. She summons the lightsaber past Kylo without any effort in the final duel, which is fine because I think it worked best cinematically that way, but there should have been earlier scene(s) to establish it.

You’re totally right about the pacing of ESB and how much more believable it is. The only thing I can think is maybe Rey is more powerful than Luke. Like, crazy powerful. Maybe she’s the new Yoda. We don’t know yet.

I just had a thought…

I don’t really go in for the whole ‘chosen one’ thing. In my mind there are no prequels.

But what if Anakin wasn’t the chosen one. What if it’s Rey, and everything we’ve seen so far was just stepping stones to the prophecy being fulfilled?

God, I can’t believe I’m talking about prequel mumbo jumbo prophecies. My point is, maybe Rey is what Yoda and all those guys have been looking for all this time.

Sorry if this should be in the Episode VIII thread but it felt more relevant to the current discussion about Rey being ‘too powerful’.

brash_stryker said:
If they really had to have Starkiller base, I think the Resistance ought to have failed to destroy it (only disabled it). This would have subverted our expectations and made it less of a rehash of ANH/ROTJ. Also it would have made it much darker (Han died for nothing, and Luke is now the Last Hope for the galaxy, just as he was once the NEW Hope).

I too felt disappointed with Starkiller and even had similar thoughts (in my mind, I thought somehow the Resistance would have to take control of it while they figure out its weakness). However, the more I thought about it, Starkiller achieved A LOT than we imagined, compared to the other two Death Stars. The first Death Star was only used for intimidation and only destroyed one peaceful planet, Alderaan. Death Star II only destroyed a few Rebel cruisers but never any other planets. What did Starkiller do? It destroyed actual military targets! It basically wiped out entire Republic fleets. Without a Republic fleet, the Republic is really no more, no more control over a galaxy. Starkiller is no longer really needed at this point, it served its purpose. Now yes, First Order got their crushing blow from the destruction of Starkiller, but it appears it’s no big deal considering how Snoke took it lightly and only instructed that Kylo Ren be returned safely to him for more training. This galaxy has a power vacuum, and it’s up to both the Resistance and the First Order to quickly reclaim control.

I’ve been slowly consuming the movie mentally. At first the nitpicks were really in the forefront, but the more I think about it, I’m captivated by the characters, especially Rey and Ren. Thinking about these characters is what makes me want to see the movie again.

As for my nitpicks, the only real weakness for me is the whole Starkiller subplot. I’m still not sure what the weapon was destroying with its multiple beams. Was that one system with multiple planets? Was it supposed to be planets from different systems? How, HOW, are the explosions of these multiple planets visible by looking up in the sky from Takodana, which is in another system? I was immediately reminded of the awful scene in JJ’s Star Trek where Spock looks up in the sky and sees Vulcan imploding.

To be honest, I was expecting Starkiller base to have a completely different primary power based on its name: destroying a sun. In the trailers you heard Ren talking about “showing them the darkness”. I figured the First Order would bring about a different kind of terror - the terror of a world and its inhabitants freezing to death in the dark, or maybe the sun exploding and taking out its whole system.

But despite this flaw, I think the movie still works, and it’s filled with plenty of wonderful moments. My personal favorite was the Falcon’s introduction as “garbage”.

Erikstormtrooper said:
As for my nitpicks, the only real weakness for me is the whole Starkiller subplot. I’m still not sure what the weapon was destroying with its multiple beams. Was that one system with multiple planets? Was it supposed to be planets from different systems?

Those planets were the capitals of the New Republic in the system called the Hosnian system. During the movie, someone mentions that now all of the Republic fleets are wiped out.

To be honest, I was expecting Starkiller base to have a completely different primary power based on its name: destroying a sun. In the trailers you heard Ren talking about “showing them the darkness”. I figured the First Order would bring about a different kind of terror - the terror of a world and its inhabitants freezing to death in the dark, or maybe the sun exploding and taking out its whole system.

Well, it is a “star” or “sun” killer. It literally drains the star’s energy for its weapon capabilities.

But despite this flaw, I think the movie still works, and it’s filled with plenty of wonderful moments. My personal favorite was the Falcon’s introduction as “garbage”.

I 100% agree there! There were many great moments in this film, but that one sequence stole the show for me! It really caught me off guard as I didn’t pick up on the garbage reference since the Falcon is referred to as “junk” rather than “garbage”. Writers did a brilliant job!

Well, I’ve seen it a second time as well now, and like many others here I really, really liked it a lot more this time around. All my unrealistic expectation on the first viewing definitely distorted my enjoyment of the film. My overall opinion of the film hasn’t really changed that much though, but I was able to enjoy it a lot more. I also feel that a lot of the complaints that have been thrown about regarding the lack of a detailed backstory is kind of pointless. There actually is an acceptable amount of explanations, or at least pretty clear hints, and the OT didn’t really have that much more to begin with. But we’ve know those films for decades so we’re accustomed to knowing all the extra-information that have been made up about it. I’m sure people back in 1977 had no clue how the politics of it all worked. This is the first time in 30 years that there’s been a film in this era/style, and not knowing the backstory is suddenly somewhat jarring, but I wouldn’t fault the actual cinematic experience for it. I think we need this trilogy to be finished before we can start nitpicking the politics of it. What’s important now is the overall narrative, and although I still think the second have is a bit too derivative, I think it works really well. I enjoyed the first half with practically no complains this time around, and the second half was only mildly disgruntling this time. Now that I was aware of it, I could enjoy the action, humour, characterization, etc. a lot more.

However, here are some of my new observations;

First of all, to all you cynics who’s been whining about Poe saying “my job is done” at the end of the film, I checked and he did say "our job is done." So calm down.

Sydow’s character is described in the opening scroll as an “old ally,” and in his conversation with Poe he insisted on referring to General Leia as “royal.” This doesn’t really explain who he is, but it hint towards certain answers. He also talks about the importance of the Jedi and a “balance” in the Force.

While at the Resistance base C-3PO says “without the Republic fleet we’re doomed!” So the fleet is mentioned in the film. I also think someone else mentioned it a bit later, but I can’t remember the details there.

Lastly, when Kylo is probing Rey’s mind he says that he saw and ocean and and says that he can see "the island." This sounds like a description of Luke’s hiding place a the end of the film. I guess Rey could have had a premonition like Luke did in ESB, or that the lightsaber showed it to her, but it seems more likely that she already knew about the place.

Warbler said:
As for Leia and Chewie not consoling each other: I took as Chewie not realizing Leia already knew Han was dead. I thought maybe it was too difficult for Chewie to bring himself to tell her. Put yourself in Chewie’s shoes. If your best friend died, would it be easy for you to be the one to tell his/her spouse? As for Chewie taking off with Rey to find to Luke, I had no problem with it. Even with Han dead, Chewie would still want to do his duty.

That’s a good point actually. I just watched the film for the second time and I noticed that Chewie ran out of the Falcon following the medics that were carrying Finn. It wasn’t so much Chewie that ignored Leia, but rather Leia that ignored Chewie. She walked past him, and went for Rey. It’s a bit odd if you start to nitpick, but Rey is our protagonist, and Leia probably sensed her, as well as noticing how alone she looked. And she did know who she was, Finn and Han talked about her, and she couldn’t really have been anyone else.

Warbler said:
btw, I never picked up that Obiwan was talking to Rey when she first picked up the lightsaber.

I noticed it this time around, but unless you’re looking for it you won’t have any clue that it’s actually Alec Guiness’ voice. It’s more of an Easter-egg I’d say.

Warbler said:
“if my idiot brother hadn’t left, maybe Han might still be alive. My brother was able to turn my father of all people back to the light, why in hell didn’t he at least try with my son! Due to him stupidly leaving, both my lover is dead and my son is probably too far gone to be saved! I am so angry with him I almost want to turn to the darkside, become a sith and hunt him down myself!”

That sounds kinda too dramatic in all honesty. There has been 30 years here that we’re not fully aware of. I’m pretty sure Luke did all he could in his power to make Ben see the light but failed due to the overpowering influence of Snoke on Ben. Blaming Luke for Han’s death is just too unfair I wouldn’t see Leia doing that. Leia has fought in the Galactic Civil War. She has seen her homeworld destroyed. Leia knows death very well. I’m not implying Leia feels nothing. I’m just saying Leia probably sees Han as a thankful temporary happinees in her life. He’s gone and nothing is going to change that, and again, death isn’t some new thing to Leia to experience.

As for Leia and Chewie not consoling each other: I took as Chewie not realizing Leia already knew Han was dead. I thought maybe it was too difficult for Chewie to bring himself to tell her. Put yourself in Chewie’s shoes. If your best friend died, would it be easy for you to be the one to tell his/her spouse? As for Chewie taking off with Rey to find to Luke, I had no problem with it. Even with Han dead, Chewie would still want to do his duty.

This is honestly the BEST answer I’ve seen for this criticism. I never could quite pinpoint why Chewie didn’t, but after reading this, I fully back this.

btw, I never picked up that Obiwan was talking to Rey when she first picked up the lightsaber.

Same here. Still, after reading about how they ‘fan’ edited Alec’s line of “AfRAId” into “Rey”, that’s pretty cool imo.

I too thought this movie resembled too much ANH. The droid having info everyone wants. Same droid trying to return info the rebellion/resistance. massive weapon. massive weapon demonstrating its power killing a lot of people which no one mourns much. massive weapon being made ready to use on rebellion/resistance. Leia waiting at rebellion/resistance base to see if X-wings will destroy massive weapon or will massive weapon destroy her. Jedi sentient living in the middle of nowhere, possibly hidden there. I am almost surprised that Luke wasn’t the one fighting Kylo Ren, with him letting Ren kill him to let the others escape.

There’s no denying the same beats are here, but different things are achieved and there are different goals now. I have no issue with that.

btw anyone think it curious how similar the names of the bad guy and good girl are? Rey and Ren?

It could be simply Ben wanting to sound badass by replacing B with R. But I don’t really think it means brother and sister, but cousins certainly is plausible.

Alderaan said:

I’m not sure why people keep saying there were no politics in the OT. Sure it wasn’t overbearing like in the prequels, but Leia and Vader had a political exchange in the opening scene, and Tarkin and Togge briefly discussed politics on the Death Star. It was just enough, the bare minimum amount of exposition to convey the political atmosphere of the world of the story.

No has said that there was “no politics” in the OT, but rather that there was very little of it. I mean I never paid any attention to Tarkin’s comment about the Imperial Senate until I was 20 years old, and I’ve been watching SW since I was 7. Most people don’t really care. Most people want to be able to identify with the characters and to be able to enjoy the ride. Geeks like us care about these details, but we’re so used to the OT that we tend to forget just how little there is in the actual films. TFA did a very similar thing. It’s there is you pay attention, but it’s not in focus because it’s not important. Also, you can’t blame Abrams and Disney for being paranoid about stepping into PT territory. Remember, the backstory in the OT has had nearly 40 years to sink into our public conscious, TFA on the other hand has only been available to us for roughly a week.

ZkinandBonez said:
No has said that there was “no politics” in the OT, but rather that there was very little of it. I mean I never paid any attention to Tarkin’s comment about the Imperial Senate until I was 20 years old, and I’ve been watching SW since I was 7.

Small aside, but wow, same thing for me as well here. I’ve been watching SW since probably about 3, but once I had hit 20 and rewatched the films time and time again, Tarkin’s line about the Senate never hit me prior.