The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 15

SilverWook said:

I know it’s difficult to separate two films plot joined at the hip, but for the benefit of others trying to remain spoiler free, keep Episode VIII speculations and rumors in their own thread whenever possible.

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Episode-VIII-Discussion-SPOILER-THREAD/id/18125

I will comply with this, but I do not understand the reasoning behind this. Speculating on what will happen in EP VIII and IX, based solely on what one saw in EP VII does not seem like a spoiler for the future movies to me. Also if one wants to speculate on what in going to happen in future movies based on what happened in this one, one will forced to post in the spoiler thread for ep VIII and might risk seeing actual spoilers. I of course understand keeping EP VIII rumors out of this thread, but keeping out speculation based solely on this movie, I don’t get. That is like if this were an a spoiler thread for ESB, keeping out someone speculating that the other Yoda spoke off in the movie was Han. Let me put it this way, if I had said to you back 1977 after seeing Star Wars for the first time that I thought Vader was Luke’s father, and my thinking was based solely on what I had seen on the screen while watching ANH, would that really have spoiled for you the big reveal in ESB? IMHO, no. That said, will comply with the order.

Warbler said:

spoiler warning
I think they made it too obvious what was going to happen to Han, at the time it happen. I was fairly certain what was going to happen about 30 seconds before it happened. I don’t understand how Rey could do so well against Kylo Ren in their fight when she supposedly hasn’t been trained at all. I realize you can argue that Kylo Ren hasn’t been fully trained yet, but he was at least somewhat trained. Rey should have been no match for him. In order to comply the rules, I will post more in the EP VIII thread.

Well, he was shot in the stomach by one of Chewie’s ridiculously powerful arrow bolt blaster things and was bleeding heavily from that.

Daisy Ridley’s performance I felt was a little bland, she’s charming but I didn’t feel much depth in her performance, didn’t like how she got so offended by Boyega grabbing her hand to get her away from the first order, overreaction much? Its bits like that that add fuel to the flames of those accusing JJ of pushing a femenist agenda in this film with Rey.

No need to get all anti-agenda-y, though I certainly don’t mind feminism in film. It was showing her lonerism and distrust, which is also the reason for the long hug when she realizes someone actually came back for her for once.

kk650 said:

Daisy Ridley’s performance I felt was a little bland, she’s charming but I didn’t feel much depth in her performance, didn’t like how she got so offended by Boyega grabbing her hand to get her away from the first order, overreaction much? Its bits like that that add fuel to the flames of those accusing JJ of pushing a femenist agenda in this film with the character of Rey. Many online have also been saying that her character is a bit of a Mary Sue and after having seen the film, its kinda difficult to disagree. She seemed to be so good at everything, piloting, engineering, fighting with pole, fighting with lightsaber she’d never used before, using the force for mind control etc etc especially when she was showing up Han Solo on his own ship, not at all believable. And of course her holding her own in the lightsaber battle with kylo ren with no training at all is another thing that has been mentioned here and elsewhere many times. They don’t seem to have left much space for her character to grow, she already seems incredibly competent at everything, it’ll be interesting to see where they go with her and what is left for Luke to teach her.

I’d be pretty miffed if JJ wasn’t pushing a feminist agenda. You do realize what feminism is, right?

Rey got mad at Finn holding her hand because she’s never met him and he’s suddenly grabbing her and running. Makes sense. She doesn’t need him holding her hand to run and escape, in fact, as she shows, it’s easier to run without holding hands. Don’t forget too that she sort of fancies herself a loner (remember when she meets BB-8). Mostly though, here’s this guy she never met who’s suddenly “marked” her as she says and pulled her into this conflict. In my mind, the whole hand thing is worth it when it’s the reverse and she holds out her hand for him to grab. Awesome moment.

I almost agree about her knowing the force too well, the mind trick thing seemed a little much too fast, though I think it’s a fun subverting of the damsel in distress trope. Don’t see what’s wrong with her being good with piloting, engineering and using her staff. She’s had all her life to practice. And her skills with the staff translates to the lightsaber (she’s got more use with a melee weapon than Luke in ESB). Not hard to believe that she could hold her own, especially considering Kylo’s bowcaster wound.

And she’s not unflawed. She’s got interesting trust and family issues that are obviously due to what happened to her as a kid and cause her to reject Solo’s offer. It’s a nice arc that’s resolved when Finn and co. come back to save her and she realizes they actually care about her. Of course she also fears her past and the unknown truths about herself which manifest when she touches the lightsaber. She doesn’t just become a full-blown, lightsaber-toting hero right away.

Daisy Ridley’s performance I felt was a little bland, she’s charming but I didn’t feel much depth in her performance, didn’t like how she got so offended by Boyega grabbing her hand to get her away from the first order, overreaction much? Its bits like that that add fuel to the flames of those accusing JJ of pushing a femenist agenda in this film with Rey.

No need to get all anti-agenda-y, though I certainly don’t mind feminism in film. It was showing her lonerism and distrust, which is also the reason for the long hug when she realizes someone actually came back for her for once.

Unfortunately the overly competent nature of Rey in the film and her behaviour towards Finn early on does come across like JJ is pushing a PC feminist agenda, I find it disappointing because the last thing anybody want to be reminded of when watching an escapist sci-fi fantasy is the modern world with political correctness and gender politics, it takes you right out of the film IMHO. I’m all for feminism, equality and girl power, but I don’t think this sort of gender politics has any place in Star Wars films that are meant to be universal timeless stories, adding this sort of thing just ties the film down to a certain period in modern history and takes away from that timeless quality that the Original Trilogy had. I don’t want to start a feminism/political correctness debate here, this thread is not the place, it was something that I felt coming across quite strongly in TFA so I felt I should mention it. I never felt it with Leia in Star Wars, even though she is a strong, independent and competent like Rey, because she is believable. I felt JJ went too far with Rey being too good at too many things too quickly and being strong in the force is not a good enough explanation, at least for me.

kk650 said:

Unfortunately the overly competent nature of Rey in the film and her behaviour towards Finn early on does come across like JJ is pushing a PC feminist agenda, I find it disappointing because the last thing anybody want to be reminded of when watching an escapist sci-fi fantasy is the modern world with political correctness and gender politics, it takes you right out of the film IMHO. I’m all for feminism, equality and girl power, but I don’t think this sort of gender politics has any place in Star Wars films that are meant to be universal timeless stories, adding this sort of thing just ties the film down to a certain period in modern history and takes away from that timeless quality that the Original Trilogy had. I don’t want to start a feminism/political correctness debate here, this thread is not the place, it was something that I felt coming across quite strongly in TFA so I felt I should mention it.

Would you feel the same way if you were female? I think if I were female, the last thing I’d want in my escapism is more misogynistic portrayals of women who can’t do anything and who constantly need men to save them.

Anchorhead said:

towne32 said:

No need to get all anti-agenda-y, though I certainly don’t mind feminism in film. It was showing her lonerism and distrust

I agree. It was a perfect representation of someone who lives a truly solitary existence. I thought her dislike of the hand-grab showed the level at which she has adjusted to being singular in the universe. She’s become so desensitized to bad, danger, terrible, etc that in the midst of an attack, someone handling her is what bothers her the most. I thought it was one of her better moments.

Interesting way to look at it. Hopefully i’ll warm to Rey and Daisy Ridley’s performance in future viewings, the sooner I get used to her the better because she’s not going anywhere, it looks like she’s going to be the Luke of this trilogy.

DominicCobb said:

kk650 said:

Unfortunately the overly competent nature of Rey in the film and her behaviour towards Finn early on does come across like JJ is pushing a PC feminist agenda, I find it disappointing because the last thing anybody want to be reminded of when watching an escapist sci-fi fantasy is the modern world with political correctness and gender politics, it takes you right out of the film IMHO. I’m all for feminism, equality and girl power, but I don’t think this sort of gender politics has any place in Star Wars films that are meant to be universal timeless stories, adding this sort of thing just ties the film down to a certain period in modern history and takes away from that timeless quality that the Original Trilogy had. I don’t want to start a feminism/political correctness debate here, this thread is not the place, it was something that I felt coming across quite strongly in TFA so I felt I should mention it.

Would you feel the same way if you were female? I think if I were female, the last thing I’d want in my escapism is more misogynistic portrayals of women who can’t do anything and who constantly need men to save them.

I don’t think its relevant whether you’re male or female, all that matters is that the character is believable and that the story is worth telling. There have been widely loved female action characters in movie history like Ellen Ripley and Sarah Conner, their being female has never been a problem because they are believable and their stories were worth telling. Rey is not believable to me personally, she is too good at too many things, especially things that she had no previous experience in, that has nothing to do with wanting more misogynistic portrayals of women. I’m not going to say any more about this aspect of TFA because I’m not really interested in getting into a heated discussion about current gender politics and PC in Hollywood.

Well, I feel Rey is believable but even if she weren’t I think it’s ridiculous that it has to be because of a PC agenda. Most blockbusters feature unbelievable male protagonists. Don’t see people complaining about gender politics there.

DominicCobb said:

Well, I feel Rey is believable but even if she weren’t I think it’s ridiculous that it has to be because of a PC agenda. Most blockbusters feature unbelievable male protagonists. Don’t see people complaining about gender politics there.

I can’t think of a single male character that could magically pick up so many unlearned skills like Rey does in TFA, i’d be the first to criticise him if I could, regardless of gender.

Plenty of superheroes get magic powers and suddenly have the ability to do incredible things, regardless of learning.

The only thing Rey does that strains believability is the mind trick, but that’s only because we’re familiar with how the force works and we know that you typically need a good deal of training before you can accomplish that. But the film presents Rey touching the lightsaber as awakening the force within her. It’s different than what we’ve seen previously in the series, but it’s not so different from the origins of many modern superheroes. Whether the lightsaber should have these abilities is another debate. This is a fantastical franchise so I’m inclined to not mind. The force works in mysterious ways and we could find out next film her fast skills in it are strange in universe. But it seems like a different debate than whether she is a believable character, and it’s really a debate that should have nothing to do with her gender.

DominicCobb said:
. . . more misogynistic portrayals of women who can’t do anything and who constantly need men to save them.

well I so apologize on behalf of all men. It is all men’s faults that men are on the average bigger and stronger than women, thus making them on the average better in a fight. All men should feel guilty and apologize for this.

I think we booted the black stormtrooper critic out too early (or was that the other thread). Such light hearted topics today.

DominicCobb said:

Plenty of superheroes get magic powers and suddenly have the ability to do incredible things

I’m a huge fan of Rey/Daisy, but Star Wars is not a super hero movie. This isn’t Batman or Superman. I thought she was by far the most compelling character in TFA, loved most of the scenes with her, but it’s a valid criticism that she was too much of a Mary Sue. Her force powers were not paced and developed properly. Being able to talk to BB-8 and Chewie was stupid.

I feel they should have limited her general badass skills to combat, technical skills, and piloting. The combat ability, even for a woman, needs no explanation. Her technical prowess was sufficiently conveyed, in my opinion, for her to eventually do the technical things she did in the film. However, I do think her ability to pilot the Falcon needed more explanation.

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:
. . . more misogynistic portrayals of women who can’t do anything and who constantly need men to save them.

well I so apologize on behalf of all men. It is all men’s faults that men are on the average bigger and stronger than women, thus making them on the average better in a fight. All men should feel guilty and apologize for this.

We really shouldn’t be getting into this type of discussion, but I’m not saying it’s all men’s fault or something like that. I am a man after all. And sure, men are typically stronger than women. But this is a fantasy film after all, and when the force is involved, your gender shouldn’t matter. Not to mention you can beat someone with things other than brute force.

And no, I’m not asking you to be guilty or apologize, but I think it’s ridiculous that we continue to see such disparity when it comes to the gender of heroes in Hollywood. About fucking time we got a female Jedi in a Star Wars movie.

DominicCobb said:

Plenty of superheroes get magic powers and suddenly have the ability to do incredible things, regardless of learning.

but it has been made quite clear in first six movies, that Jedi sentients need training and practice before they can really do incredible things.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:
. . . more misogynistic portrayals of women who can’t do anything and who constantly need men to save them.

well I so apologize on behalf of all men. It is all men’s faults that men are on the average bigger and stronger than women, thus making them on the average better in a fight. All men should feel guilty and apologize for this.

We really shouldn’t be getting into this type of discussion,

yeah, I thought about putting my previous above reply in the political thread in the off topic section and posting a link to it here, but I thought that may violate the spoiler rules.

but I’m not saying it’s all men’s fault or something like that. I am a man after all. And sure, men are typically stronger than women. But this is a fantasy film after all, and when the force is involved, your gender shouldn’t matter. Not to mention you can beat someone with things other than brute force.

but how big and strong someone is, inevitably has an impact on that someone’s ability in a fight.

And no, I’m not asking you to be guilty or apologize, but I think it’s ridiculous that we continue to see such disparity when it comes to the gender of heroes in Hollywood. About fucking time we got a female Jedi in a Star Wars movie.

I have no problem with female Jedi in a Star Wars movie.

Alderaan said:

DominicCobb said:

Plenty of superheroes get magic powers and suddenly have the ability to do incredible things

I’m a huge fan of Rey/Daisy, but Star Wars is not a super hero movie. This isn’t Batman or Superman. I thought she was by far the most compelling character in TFA, loved most of the scenes with her, but it’s a valid criticism that she was too much of a Mary Sue. Her force powers were not paced and developed properly. Being able to talk to BB-8 and Chewie was stupid.

Well she’s a wizard then. Harry Potter could talk to snakes without being trained. Same shit, different name. I agree the mind trick ability was acquired too easily, but I don’t see how that makes her a “Mary Sue.” To be a Mary Sue you need a character who has no flaws whatsoever. She is not that. Want a tip? Judging her because of her gender makes it seem like there’s some underlying sexism involved (and I’m not saying there is). Anakin was overpowered in TPM and people criticized him for that, but of course no one mentioned his gender when doing so. This is not an issue of gender (Dameron can talk to BB-8 too).

I feel they should have limited her general badass skills to combat, technical skills, and piloting. The combat ability, even for a woman, needs no explanation. Her technical prowess was sufficiently conveyed, in my opinion, for her to eventually do the technical things she did in the film. However, I do think her ability to pilot the Falcon needed more explanation.

Why? She says she’s a pilot. So does Luke in ANH, if you’ll remember.

Warbler said:

but how big and strong someone is, inevitably has an impact on that someone’s ability in a fight.

But it’s not the only thing that has an impact. “Size matters not.”

Sorry Wook. In defense of myself, my main point is that the discussion really shouldn’t have anything to do with her gender.

I’m not talking about her gender, DominicCobb. I think it’s great she’s a woman and kicking butt in the movie, as long as it’s natural within the world of the story (which it was) and not some didactic stuff being shoved at us from the director (which it wasn’t). Rey being a strong and independent character was great as far I’m concerned. I loved her in the movie.

As far as her being a Mary Sue … what flaws or limitations did she have? And even if you give her flaws and limitations, but you come up with the excuse that she has some innate ability to overcome those limitations at the whim of the writer, then what is she exactly? This all gets back to how poorly thought out the plot was. Instead of creating a genuine, original story, we had JJ and Kathleen sitting in a room listening to some Disney execs tell them that THIS, and THIS, and THAT, and THAT, and these other 50 things all have to be in the movie to make the most money. That was a recipe for disaster. The plot wound up as an incoherent mess, and that’s really the only criticism I have of Rey’s character. She was basically given “liquid luck” (Harry Potter reference) for any scene in the movie the plot could use it.

You need a pilot? Here’s Rey. You need someone who can understand a droid? Here’s Rey. Finn is being dragged around the freighter by a CGI monster? Here’s Rey who happens to be standing next to video monitors and can instantly locate the button that will snap a door shut and cut off the tentacles of the monster to free Finn without killing him. You need to get Rey out of captivity? She’ll suddenly discover she has the ability to do a Jedi mind trick on her guard. You need this … well even if Rey doesn’t know how to do it, she must have been trained to do it by Luke and she’ll suddenly remember at the exact moment she needs to … ahh fuck it I hate this shit.

I loved her character but I would have certainly liked to see more vulnerability, more humanity. We saw that on Jakku but as the film moved along, she started to lose her individuality and assimilate more and more into whatever the plot needed. And this is all without getting into how absurd it was for her to nearly kill Kylo at the end.