The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 266

Bingowings said:

Naboobies.

That sounds like No Boobies, which is bad… Mkey?

About my Darth Maul idea, here is a poorly made mock up (because I was really bored):

Improving upon this idea:

What if we replace Darth Sidious with Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku? He appeared out of nowhere in episode 2 and this would solve that. Darth Maul could be Darth Tyranus’s apprentice (instead of Darth Tyranus being Darth Sidious’s apprentice, which makes little sense. Isn’t he a little too old to become an apprentice again? Perhaps he turned to the dark side before the events of episode 1 and became a master already. I know it was said that apprentice cannot become a master unless he kills his/her master, but thats both stupid and not true in the original trilogy as both Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were sith masters. And since there were a sith empire once, with lots of sith masters, it makes sense.)

This would help greatly to the movie. Darth Maul is the apprentice and dies in the first movie. (then Yoda says “there is always two, a master and an apprentice”) Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku is the master, shadowy figure in the first movie and he dies in the second movie. This adds a false sense of security to the movie, like sith has been defeated, but in the third movie, Darth Sidious appears and turns Anakin to the dark side. I would call that better paced.

Bingowings said:

I would prefer to see Dooku appear watching Qui-Gon’s funeral from a distance as a sign of his disaffection with with order. I don’t want him to be Sith at all but a Jedi who has correctly detected the Sith infiltration of the Republic and is trying to do something about it. It gives his character more depth and allows Palpatine to use the war as a propaganda tool against the Jedi no matter who wins.

He was a prime example of how much dark side can corrupt. (and the movie would be really dull if you eliminate him as the enemy) You know, actually you can have it both ways. We know that he joined the sith as he was Darth Sidious’s apprentice, but why did he exactly do that? Perhaps by joining the sith and raising the drone army, he was trying to prove something, at least at first. Realizing he couldn’t convince Jedi to take action, he would force their hand before it was too late. But he was corrupted by the dark side before that. (he was already on his way to the dark side, what he did with good intentions was what tipped the scales)

So he took a sith apprentice and joined forces with Darth Sidious to teach the Jedi a lesson, but was betrayed by the latter. Or something like that.

Prequels already quite weak as it is, reducing the number of sith wouldn’t help the matters.

Bingowings said:

We have out and out villains in the saga. Having Dooku right and the council wrong makes him a figure of tragedy therefore infinitely more interesting than just another bad guy with a red stick.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you on that.

We have many villains in the saga, but only three of them are Sith, rest is just there.

If you were to take out Darth Sidious in episode 1 and 2, you would need to either replace him with someone, or you would need to cut all the related scenes, which would reduce the quality of the movie.(quality is already very very low and many other scenes already need to be cut, you would lose some scenes you can easily salvage if you have a replacement character. If you opt not to replace him and decide to cut him out altogether, you will end up cutting all of the scenes that has Darth Maul in them as a consequence, since most of the time, and in some vital points of the story, they appear together. You would end up with a movie where a sith appears out of nowhere, kills a jedi than just dies. Because most of the backstory scenes has Sidious in them. And after Yoda says there is always two, it would take 2 more movies for the other to appear and it is at the very ending.) Now, you can’t replace him with any other character who is not sith and if you replace him with a new character, whatever character you replace him with has to appear in the other movies for continuity and will need to properly die since that character wont appear in the original trilogy. That would mean editing many scenes along with adding some new scenes, which would be a pain in the ass. (I am probably explaining what I have in mind really poorly, but I hope you understand what I mean)

In my opinion, most of the scenes that features Darth Maul could be quite good, only thing that ruins them is the fact Darth Sidious appears them as well.

While I agree with you (though it was never about not liking the idea) I think blacking out Sidious’s face and changing his voice to something unrecognizable is a terrible idea. It just seems too cheap an effect to have. (among other things) There must be another/better way of doing this without replacing Sidious with Dooku and without resulting to blacken out his face/cape. If only there were one more sith lord in the prequels.

Johannus said:

I agree completely. However, even masking off the face area and dropping the lighting to create a blacked out hood and keep the effect looking neat would take an awful lot of work. Whilst I would like to think it could be done another way I’m not even sure of another method which could be applied. Even with an actor like Christopher Lee who has been in so many movies, I’ve still been struggling to find any shots which could be convincingly added to the jedi scenes to make him look like part of the council. I think then trying to find more shots of him to replace Sidious would be impossible (unfortunately). Though if Sidious’s voice were changed then rather than just running the existing voice through a filter, whole new lines could be made without the worry of matching lip movements. Again not a perfect solution because it would look a little cheap, but perhaps one where the benefits could outweigh that.

Well, one solution I can think of is this:

Replace Darth Sidious with Darth Maul in the federation related scenes. For the other scenes where Darth Sidious and Darth Maul converse, replace Sidious with another villain from the prequels, maybe even General Grievous (to address the issue of where the hell he was before episode 3 and to make it seem like there is a bigger conspiracy going on.) But replacing him with General Grievous could be a little problematic, as he is a bit taller than Sidious. (also one would need to rearrange the conversation in a convincing manner, also replace his voice in EP3 as well to match it, as he sounds like a cartoon villain in EP3 and thats not very fitting for a movie. He has the potential to be a great character, if someone can iron out the ridiculousness that is.)

Replacing/editing out Sidious as a hologram wouldn’t be too hard (as you would just need to replace the mettle in the middle and add a new hologram there) but replacing Sidious in those non-holo scenes would be difficult but I think it would worth it if someone actually menages to pull it off. (Though since General Grievous doesn’t have a visible mouth, it might be a lot easier to replace someone with him than anyone else.)

Johannus said:

Replacing Sidious with Grievous is an interesting idea. I had always liked the idea of trying to imply that Maul became Grievous (though admittedly that brings more problems too) so I’d not considered the idea of suggesting the two work together.

Well, Grievous IS the general of the droid armies and he is working in coalition Darth Sidious (the emperor). I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t appear before EP3. Unlike OT, PT appears too disconnected with its own episodes anyway (a character appearing out of nowhere, like writers just thought him/her up and couldn’t wait to add him/her to the movie), this would help a bit with that.

Originally Grievous was chosen and trained by Count Dooku, under the orders of Darth Sidious, but since we take Count Dooku out with this plan, you would have to tie Grievous to Sidious directly. (and any other sith apprentice Dooku has goes to Sidious as well, screw the stupid “rule of two” as well, if it wasn’t on the OT, I don’t consider it canon.) By the way, I am really for adding some stuff from animated series (like sith warriors and stuff) and from KOTOR games (republic related stuff) but that would require a lot of CGI work. (these movies already has many terrible CGI scenes)

Also one more idea, in EP3, how about Anakin doesn’t slaughter bunch of little kids but some other group of people Palpaline doesn’t like? (Like two or more Jedi consul members or Republic soldier or something) There should be something to show he is turning evil, but directly slaughtering children seems too far a jump. (I mean, he might have done that as Darth Vader, but he was still Anakin when he slaughtered those children. It just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, how did Sidious convinced him to do it? Anakin wasn’t completely evil yet. At first, he did what he did thinking it was justified after all. How did he justify murdering children all of the sudden?)

Lastly, this is what I meant when I talked about Grievous sounded like a cartoon villain in EP3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeNhyWhZ_oc

His voice actor in Clone Wars (2003) cartoon did an awesome job, he actually sounds intimidating. But in Episode 3, his voice actor did a terrible job and sounds like a cartoon villain. (with a weird accent and a voice very difficult to understand without subtitles)

Lastly, I think Grievous should have red lightsabers… Who is with me?

sansuni said:
His voice actor in Clone Wars (2003) cartoon did an awesome job, he actually sounds intimidating. But in Episode 3, his voice actor did a terrible job and sounds like a cartoon villain. (with a weird accent and a voice very difficult to understand without subtitles)

Lastly, I think Grievous should have red lightsabers… Who is with me?

Agreed on both

sansuni said:

Johannus said:

I agree completely. However, even masking off the face area and dropping the lighting to create a blacked out hood and keep the effect looking neat would take an awful lot of work. Whilst I would like to think it could be done another way I’m not even sure of another method which could be applied. Even with an actor like Christopher Lee who has been in so many movies, I’ve still been struggling to find any shots which could be convincingly added to the jedi scenes to make him look like part of the council. I think then trying to find more shots of him to replace Sidious would be impossible (unfortunately). Though if Sidious’s voice were changed then rather than just running the existing voice through a filter, whole new lines could be made without the worry of matching lip movements. Again not a perfect solution because it would look a little cheap, but perhaps one where the benefits could outweigh that.

Well, one solution I can think of is this:

Replace Darth Sidious with Darth Maul in the federation related scenes. For the other scenes where Darth Sidious and Darth Maul converse, replace Sidious with another villain from the prequels, maybe even General Grievous (to address the issue of where the hell he was before episode 3 and to make it seem like there is a bigger conspiracy going on.) But replacing him with General Grievous could be a little problematic, as he is a bit taller than Sidious. (also one would need to rearrange the conversation in a convincing manner, also replace his voice in EP3 as well to match it, as he sounds like a cartoon villain in EP3 and thats not very fitting for a movie. He has the potential to be a great character, if someone can iron out the ridiculousness that is.)

Replacing/editing out Sidious as a hologram wouldn’t be too hard (as you would just need to replace the mettle in the middle and add a new hologram there) but replacing Sidious in those non-holo scenes would be difficult but I think it would worth it if someone actually menages to pull it off. (Though since General Grievous doesn’t have a visible mouth, it might be a lot easier to replace someone with him than anyone else.)

A young Tarkin would work as well.

Tom Hiddleston resembles young Peter Cushing quite a bit, if you could cut some appropriate lines/scenes of his and splice them into TPM?

But I’m no video editing expert, sound is my area of expertise.

[Edit:] Using footage from him in Out of Darkness and Coriolanus could work, if such splicing is possible.

I originally posted this concept in another thread, but figure that it belongs here as well. Here is my solution to the issue of Anakin turning in the prequels, without actually having another apprentice for Obi Wan:

1. This might be unpopular, but we can use the Jake Lloyd footage here; only refer to him as Anakin in person (and, though it might be too ham-fisted, you can also have his Pod’s or Pod Racing ‘name’ be “Darth” or “Vader” perhaps).

2. Have Obi Wan take young Anakin on as an apprentice. Show their relationship while Anakin is young a little bit more than not at all, with it being contentious and there being drama surrounding the loss of his mother.

3. Have the Jedi actually be split over sides with the Clone Wars (make Dooku not be a Sith and a character sympathetic to many of the Jedi, who side with him against the corruption in the Republic, go full on Civil War with it).

4. Introduce “Skywalker” now as another Jedi Knight who is Obi Wan’s friend as the Clone Wars begin/intensify. Perhaps have them bond (reconnect in actuality) over some action sequence; i.e. where Skywalker saves’ Obi Wan’s bacon in a space battle, then Obi Wan backs him up with his lightsaber on the ground, maybe even taking a blaster shot for him.

• • This serves a double purpose as the (re)introduction disguises Skywalker as being Anakin from the audience in the initial viewing, but actually shows the redemption of their friendship as equals on repeat viewings. It also establishes each others’ strengths and weaknesses (which will later play into Skywalker’s drive for ever more strength - out of a desire to do good, but through him wields a power too great and terrible - to quote LOTR).

5. Against the will of the council have Obi Wan and Skywalker engage in fighting for the Republic side (motivated in part by their feelings for Padme, friendship and more, respectively; there is no Jedi rule against attachment).

6. Have a confrontation with Obi Wan and Skywalker, against Dooku and some of the other Jedi who support his side. Have Skywalker particularly effective at fighting against all but one of them, while Obi Wan spars (verbally?) with Dooku. Skywalker stops just short of killing him, the best of Dooku’s Jedi, but injuring him badly, and protects Obi Wan’s back. Obi Wan can be tempted by Dooku here, or even the influence of the Dark Side as an allegory for what Skywalker (Anakin) is going through internally.

7. Obi Wan confides in Yoda that he’s worried about Dooku and the dark side, and also that he’s “worried that [his] apprentice was not trained enough before this war broke out, that [he’s] not dealing with all the hate and suffering Dooku’s causing” (that can be worded better, but make it seem like his former apprentice sided with Dooku on first time viewing, without actually saying either way).

8. Next have a scene with Obi Wan and Skywalker sparring where Skywalker wins (could maybe use some of the footage from Mustafar) although good naturedly, and talks about them both needing to be better for when they meet Dooku next, if they want to end the war.

9. Have Padme talking to Skywalker about being pregnant (Both actually celebrating it).

10. Dooku attacks Coruscant to Kidnap the Chancellor. During which Padme’s ship/office/home is destroyed and she’s presumed dead. Skywalker (angrily/in a rage) goes after the Count, Obi Wan accompanies him, to Dooku’s ship.
    In the confrontation with Dooku, and another Jedi, who Skywalker wounded previously, now in a partial mask duel. Skywalker gets his arm cut off but kills Dooku, and Obi Wan is knocked out (perhaps using the same footage from when Dooku drops the gantry on him) at which point the screen fades to black.

11. Obi Wan wakes up Dooku’s ship crashing on Coruscant (trapped under the gantry thing if you like). Dooku’s body is nearby, as well as another, missing an arm. No faces are visible to the audience, although Obi Wan can see it and looks sad/in pain at them, then looks away (as Jedi, both the ‘other’ Jedi and Skywalker were both wearing identical uniforms).

• • Both bodies can be pretty badly burned/mutilated (a call to the late Owen and Beru in ANH) and Obi Wan, quite injured himself, could maybe mutter a quiet line like: “How could you, Anakin?” using that name for the first time since the first episode with little Ani.

12. Obi Wan makes his way out of the ship to find Coruscant in chaos, with the Jedi Temple burning. Republic troops are now turning on the Jedi as a result of Dooku’s actions, and try to arrest/kill him.

13. (Optional) We can cut to Mace Windu challenging the chancellor over the arresting of Jedi (in connection to Dooku) at which point he is revealed as Sidious and they have their duel. A Jedi with badly burnt robes and a mask that covers almost his entire face but no helmet, and cuts off Windu’s hand.
    The Emperor can then kill Windu (sans the god-awful “oppression of the sith” line) and thank the masked (dark) Jedi (Anakin Skywalker) as ‘Darth’ and/or ‘Vader’, but doesn’t create the name.

• • The Few remaining Jedi on Coruscant were previously rounded up on the Chancellor’s order during Dooku’s Assault (because it’s stupid and irredeemable having Anakin just go and murder children, especially when he’s an expectant father himself).

14. Obi Wan finds Padme, still alive, near the ruins of, say, the senate building and after they see a public announcement from Palpatine announcing martial law, takes her to Bail Organa who flies them off planet, (potentially with Yoda as well,) mourning the loss of lover, friends and the republic itself, perhaps even remarking on how Dooku was right about the Chancellor but played right into his hands, by giving up faith in democracy).

15. They talk about how they must split up, as Padme goes into labour and that they need to hide Skywalker’s child from the Emperor in order to restore the Jedi, and peace, but that they will be the new hope.

16. End with Luke being born, camera zooming into the depths of his eyes then stars within, against a black screen for the typical Star Wars credits.

This is a basic framework for how I would have done the prequels, at least. All the important reveals are kept (also including Yoda if you want to cut any image of him from these films, but I think he actually works better as a device for Luke’s growth if the audience is in on who he is in ESB), and even the minor details like that Vader “left” Obi Wan sync up with the OT.

Indeed, I like to think that a mystery is sparked about how Anakin fell, while simultaneously revealing how he actually turned during the film, that all comes together when he is revealed as Anakin Skywalker in ESB/ROTJ; initially it would appear that he was defeated by the unknown (dark) Jedi working with Dooku when he gave into his rage. This would even give further weight, I think, to the Emperor’s attempt to goad Luke, with the trap for the rebellion and impending doom of all his loved ones and Luke’s own besting of Vader.

There are of course some areas that I’d add more detail to, for a fully story outline and synopsis (such as Anakin/Padme’s relationship to Owen and Beru, as well as Bail Organa, and changing Naboo to Alderaan etc.) but for plotting out Anakin’s fall/turn I think I’ve covered everything necessary.

But those are my thoughts, I’m curious what others think of this concept?

• P.S. (I have no idea how to make this work with the footage available, or if it’s even possible short of filming new scenes)

Agreed on all counts, and playing up the Organa/Padme angle is an idea that actually hadn’t occurred to me, but is especially brilliant now that I think about it.
I was originally thinking along the lines of the familial relationship BelatedMedia suggested in his ‘What if the prequels were good series’ but the more I consider deeper an implied romantic tension between Bail and Padme (who would spend a lot of time together while Anakin and Obi Wan are both away fighting the war) the more I like it.

It creates a vessel for the conflict and mistrust plaguing the Republic from within; whereas Anakin and Padme’s relationship is the ultimate symbol of unity between the senate and the Jedi - the public and those who serve them - The hint of a triangle demonstrates the mistrust, doubt and disenchantment the people have for the Jedi, and vice versa, through a very personal relationship.

This theme would additionally tie into the fractious nature of the Clone Wars themselves; the moral dimension of clones fighting natural people which was not an angle presented in the prequels we got, is one that I would love to see played up more. For me the ideal prequels would have gone full tilt into the subject matter of mass cloning and all the moral grey area surrounding; which after years of this conflict dominating society and culminating in war, make Palpatine’s black-and-white leadership (to become dictatorship) all the more appealing to the masses.

Issues like whether the Jedi should take a side at all when it’s clones against people, if they hold all life sacred etc. and what effect (or lack of) cloning has on force potential.
Personally I’d have it that the old Jedi council wishes to stay out of the civil war altogether, while the Republic refuses to grant rights to Clones as those of other living beings, while Dooku Takes leadership of the CIS for them (while also more cynically supporting the industry that wishes to make a business out of cloning etc, but these are extra dimensions).
I’d also make it that cloning a Jedi for example does not necessarily confer force sensitivity, yet a clone of someone who has no force ability may actually have it; the force is in this sense impartial in who it seeks to do its will.
If/When clones of senators start showing up though, the Jedi’s position on clones would also cast them in yet worse favour in the Republic, especially at the behest of Palpatine’s fear-mongering.

These are just some more ideas I’m venting though, and probably quite out there for material for Star Wars.

P.S. Capaldi is a pretty good match for Cushing too, I reckon:

I think that James Marsters doesn’t have quite a close enough nose, personally, although he’s got the cheekbones:

All 3 are especially notable though for the hard and almost ‘beady’ eyes, sharp jaw and sallow cheeks.

That’s why I suggested Hiddleston above, because I reckon he’s got a passable voice for younger Tarkin, if you can mine his dialogue from various roles.
But I’d be interested to hear other people’s thoughts on the voice, I recommend this YouTube clip as a decent sample from him in Out of Darkness

Darth Lucas said:

I’m for Hiddleston. He’s got the look, the voice, and a wide enough body of work to probably pull stuff from.

I would have to agree. He is got enough footage to pull something like this off.

Anyway, since we talked about voices and stuff, how about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH9RX7emAI0

How about someone who can make a good young James Earl Jones/Darth Vader impression voices Anakin? (it shouldn’t sound exactly like Darth Vader, but it should like a mixture of Sebastian Shaw and James Earl Jones) I think that would bridge the series further.

EDIT: By the way, I found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDLM-dXP-KE

It is the recut of the prequel trilogy called “The Blackened Mantle” and it seems most of the story was rewritten. Voice acting is much better (since it is in Japanese and all) and most of what made the prequels suck, is gone forever.

While it is good, it is not perfect by any definition of the word though. I really don’t like the flashbacks thing. (it doesn’t fit very well with the OT) And I really don’t like Darth Maul being Grevious either. (I can live with Darth Maul coming back as himself to fight Kenobi, but I really feal Grevious should be his own character) There are several other issues with the edit as well, but not many of them worth mentioning.