logo Sign In

ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 27

Author
Time
 (Edited)

xhonzi said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Anchorhead said:

Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade.

The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly

The Dark Knight Rises.

Last Crusade and TDKR are weaker than what came before, but I have to admit they do make a decent fist of wrapping things up nicely, although there isn't any plot to wrap up in Last Crusade, as the Indy Trilogy are all self contained films. TDKR doesn't have much to wrap up either, as few characters crossover the 3 movies, although the League of Shadows storyline comes full circle.

Where as ROTJ brings all the characters from all the movies and all the threads together in one neat bow IMO

The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly, although excellent is just a third movie (as has been said above). It's not the conclusion of a third part story.... plus arguably it's a prequel ;-)

 I still think often about "Capital 'T'" trilogies.  I know I posted about them a few times here- but I only found this example: http://originaltrilogy.com/FORUM/topic.cfm/Act-Breaks/post/451754/

The BTS stuff for PotC2 is really interesting... they didn't write Curse of the Black Pearl to be a Trilogy opener, so they have to sort of backdoor into it to use it as part one of a proper Trilogy.  They discuss what was in it that could possibly be used to thread out into parts two and three.  Something along the lines of "let's not make sequels- let's make a Trilogy- and if there's nothing in the first movie that sustains that, then we'll just drop it."

Of course... not a trilogy anymore..

 

I actually consider Pirates 4 to be a sort of rewrite of 1. Most of the cast is completely new. The motivations of Jack and Barbosa change considerably from off-screen events in between 3 and 4. The Barbosa story line is new and different, he's looking for revenge and is more of a gray character than a pure villian. But Jack is back to trying to reunite with the Black Pearl as in the original film.

Oh, and an interesting tidbit on pirates 2/3. They were filmed together, and they did not have a script well into the start of production. They had a story arc, and the writers had a basic outline to do storyboards. But the writers had to tag along during filming and were often writing dialogue for scenes to be filmed the next day. So when some of the logic that the characters use to set up an upcoming scene makes no sense, that's probably why. It kind of works with Jack I guess because part of his charm is how his absurd schemes work out so well.

Jedi does this too, the plan to save Han just seems overly complex. I'd bet that the sail barge, Sarlac, and slave Leia were dreamed up first and resources were already committed to making them a reality. As a result our heroes weren't allowed to come up with a more logical strategy.

Author
Time

Here I was, having almost forgotten those largely shitty Pirate movies, and you guys just had to go and remind me of their existence. *le sigh*

Author
Time

woofermazing said:

xhonzi said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Anchorhead said:

Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade.

The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly

The Dark Knight Rises.

Last Crusade and TDKR are weaker than what came before, but I have to admit they do make a decent fist of wrapping things up nicely, although there isn't any plot to wrap up in Last Crusade, as the Indy Trilogy are all self contained films. TDKR doesn't have much to wrap up either, as few characters crossover the 3 movies, although the League of Shadows storyline comes full circle.

Where as ROTJ brings all the characters from all the movies and all the threads together in one neat bow IMO

The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly, although excellent is just a third movie (as has been said above). It's not the conclusion of a third part story.... plus arguably it's a prequel ;-)

 I still think often about "Capital 'T'" trilogies.  I know I posted about them a few times here- but I only found this example: http://originaltrilogy.com/FORUM/topic.cfm/Act-Breaks/post/451754/

The BTS stuff for PotC2 is really interesting... they didn't write Curse of the Black Pearl to be a Trilogy opener, so they have to sort of backdoor into it to use it as part one of a proper Trilogy.  They discuss what was in it that could possibly be used to thread out into parts two and three.  Something along the lines of "let's not make sequels- let's make a Trilogy- and if there's nothing in the first movie that sustains that, then we'll just drop it."

Of course... not a trilogy anymore..

 

I actually consider Pirates 4 to be a sort of rewrite of 1. Most of the cast is completely new. The motivations of Jack and Barbosa change considerably from off-screen events in between 3 and 4. The Barbosa story line is new and different, he's looking for revenge and is more of a gray character than a pure villian. But Jack is back to trying to reunite with the Black Pearl as in the original film.

Oh, and an interesting tidbit on pirates 2/3. They were filmed together, and they did not have a script well into the start of production. They had a story arc, and the writers had a basic outline to do storyboards. But the writers had to tag along during filming and were often writing dialogue for scenes to be filmed the next day. So when some of the logic that the characters use to set up an upcoming scene makes no sense, that's probably why. It kind of works with Jack I guess because part of his charm is how his absurd schemes work out so well.

Jedi does this too, the plan to save Han just seems overly complex. I'd bet that the sail barge, Sarlac, and slave Leia were dreamed up first and resources were already committed to making them a reality. As a result our heroes weren't allowed to come up with a more logical strategy.

Actually, to judge from The Making of ROTJ, quite a lot of thought was put into Luke's ultimate plans behind the whole scheme to infiltrate Jabba's palace. The problem was that almost none of it ended up conveyed on screen.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time

ATMachine said:

woofermazing said:

xhonzi said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Anchorhead said:

Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade.

The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly

The Dark Knight Rises.

Last Crusade and TDKR are weaker than what came before, but I have to admit they do make a decent fist of wrapping things up nicely, although there isn't any plot to wrap up in Last Crusade, as the Indy Trilogy are all self contained films. TDKR doesn't have much to wrap up either, as few characters crossover the 3 movies, although the League of Shadows storyline comes full circle.

Where as ROTJ brings all the characters from all the movies and all the threads together in one neat bow IMO

The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly, although excellent is just a third movie (as has been said above). It's not the conclusion of a third part story.... plus arguably it's a prequel ;-)

 I still think often about "Capital 'T'" trilogies.  I know I posted about them a few times here- but I only found this example: http://originaltrilogy.com/FORUM/topic.cfm/Act-Breaks/post/451754/

The BTS stuff for PotC2 is really interesting... they didn't write Curse of the Black Pearl to be a Trilogy opener, so they have to sort of backdoor into it to use it as part one of a proper Trilogy.  They discuss what was in it that could possibly be used to thread out into parts two and three.  Something along the lines of "let's not make sequels- let's make a Trilogy- and if there's nothing in the first movie that sustains that, then we'll just drop it."

Of course... not a trilogy anymore..

 

I actually consider Pirates 4 to be a sort of rewrite of 1. Most of the cast is completely new. The motivations of Jack and Barbosa change considerably from off-screen events in between 3 and 4. The Barbosa story line is new and different, he's looking for revenge and is more of a gray character than a pure villian. But Jack is back to trying to reunite with the Black Pearl as in the original film.

Oh, and an interesting tidbit on pirates 2/3. They were filmed together, and they did not have a script well into the start of production. They had a story arc, and the writers had a basic outline to do storyboards. But the writers had to tag along during filming and were often writing dialogue for scenes to be filmed the next day. So when some of the logic that the characters use to set up an upcoming scene makes no sense, that's probably why. It kind of works with Jack I guess because part of his charm is how his absurd schemes work out so well.

Jedi does this too, the plan to save Han just seems overly complex. I'd bet that the sail barge, Sarlac, and slave Leia were dreamed up first and resources were already committed to making them a reality. As a result our heroes weren't allowed to come up with a more logical strategy.

Actually, to judge from The Making of ROTJ, quite a lot of thought was put into Luke's ultimate plans behind the whole scheme to infiltrate Jabba's palace. The problem was that almost none of it ended up conveyed on screen.

 This is why we can't have good things anymore. They just had to make the third one the weakest of the trilogy didn't they? Then the PT came along and made the entire franchise rotten forever. At least when we had just the OT it was still mostly good. Now it's a festering corpse where we don't even have the real movies anymore.

Author
Time

Jedi has been my favourite since I was a kid, and upon reevaluating the whole trilogy as an adult it still is. Luke is mature, imposing, and a true leader. Han is no longer a reckless, selfish rogue; he defers to others, apologizes when needed, and is a true soldier. The throne room scenes with Luke, Vader and Palpatine in the Death Star throne room are among my favourite in the trilogy (second possibly only to the meeting between Luke and Vader on the Endor landing platform), I respect the Ewoks for the cute, terrifying insurgent fighters they are. Most of all, it's just so, so cathartic.

I'm naturally predisposed to final chapters in this way, I guess. The Dark Knight Rises is my favourite of Nolan's Batman trilogy, The Year of Our Lord 1983 (same year as Jedi, coincidentally) is the best of the Red Riding trilogy. It's emotionally and maybe even spiritually fulfilling to see things wrapped up in a satisfying way, and Jedi does that in spades.

I understand it has the weakest plot of the three, and retreads old ground with the Death Star, but to be perfectly honest I'm drawn more toward characterization and the aforementioned catharsis when I read, watch or play various forms of art and entertainment.

So Jedi all the way. Can't wait for the 2.0 of Harmy's Despecialized and Team Negative One's first version of their 35mm scan.

Author
Time

DavidMerrick said:

Jedi has been my favourite since I was a kid, and upon reevaluating the whole trilogy as an adult it still is. Luke is mature, imposing, and a true leader. Han is no longer a reckless, selfish rogue; he defers to others, apologizes when needed, and is a true soldier. The throne room scenes with Luke, Vader and Palpatine in the Death Star throne room are among my favourite in the trilogy (second possibly only to the meeting between Luke and Vader on the Endor landing platform), I respect the Ewoks for the cute, terrifying insurgent fighters they are. Most of all, it's just so, so cathartic.

I'm naturally predisposed to final chapters in this way, I guess. The Dark Knight Rises is my favourite of Nolan's Batman trilogy, The Year of Our Lord 1983 (same year as Jedi, coincidentally) is the best of the Red Riding trilogy. It's emotionally and maybe even spiritually fulfilling to see things wrapped up in a satisfying way, and Jedi does that in spades.

I understand it has the weakest plot of the three, and retreads old ground with the Death Star, but to be perfectly honest I'm drawn more toward characterization and the aforementioned catharsis when I read, watch or play various forms of art and entertainment.

So Jedi all the way. Can't wait for the 2.0 of Harmy's Despecialized and Team Negative One's first version of their 35mm scan.

It's interesting how you view Han's character as evolving rather than devolving like most people who dislike Jedi. I like roguish Han more than soldier Han, but I see where you're coming from. He couldn't have stayed the same as a character and still been part of the Rebellion. I guess it's just that he seems rather uncommitted to the role of soldier most of the time.

The Ewoks could have been great as a further lesson in not judging worth by a person's size. Yet again, they aren't treated with as much respect as Yoda was, and so the Ewoks are undermined by the movie itself.

But the catharsis at the end is absolutely great, no question.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I too see Han's character in Jedi as a logical evolution. In fact I could argue that he never was a scoundler by nature. His core personality was always as that in Jedi. His true character just gradually gets revealed throughout the trilogy as we (other characters) start to know him better and better.

In Star Wars always felt to me like he is just putting up an act, i.e. he made himself look tough and like someone who doesn't care. If that was his true character and if he really was in fact a scoundler, he surely would not come to save Luke in the final battle. And he most certainly would not join the Rebellion after that.

So even in Star Wars we can see that he was actually a "pussy" putting up an act. That is even more evident in Empire. And it finally gets clear in Jedi.

真実

Author
Time

DavidMerrick said:

Han is no longer a reckless, selfish rogue; he defers to others, apologizes when needed, and is a true soldier.

Yes, the Han who has found friends (ANH), love (ESB) and been almost literally reborn from death (ROTJ) is a better person and we see that in the last film. I hadn't quite realised how well this played before.

DavidMerrick said:

I respect the Ewoks for the cute, terrifying insurgent fighters they are.

I probablly wouldn't put it quite as strongly as that ;-)   but, yeah I never quite got the "Ewoks are cutesy" orthodoxy. They spend half the movie trying to capture, burn alive and eat our heroes, then the rest fighting a hopeless battle against impossible odds. Sure they look like bears but that is where the cute begins and ends.

DavidMerrick said:

Most of all, it's just so, so cathartic.

Totally.

DavidMerrick said:

Jedi all the way. Can't wait for the 2.0 of Harmy's Despecialized and Team Negative One's first version of their 35mm scan.

ROTJ is the most heavily molested by the various SE changes. I cannot wait for his future upgrades and the work of others. Just seeing Jabba's Palace in HD would be enough.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

Author
Time

I agree that Han and Luke made character arcs throughout the OT, and especially in Jedi. But ESB is still the better film.

Author
Time

Ryan McAvoy said:

They spend half the movie trying to capture, burn alive and eat our heroes...

That is, believe it or not, part of the "cutesy".  For audiences who saw a lot of adventure serials in the seventies and eighties, the "natives capturing the heroes and roasting/boiling them alive" schtick was already so worn out by 1983 that by then it was a well-understood joke, not a threat.  It was a cheesy homage to the genre, like Chewie's Tarzan yell.  If anyone was terrified, it was only through lack of exposure to pop culture, even kids.  Scooby Doo, Gilligan's Island, The Far Side.  EVERYONE knew this joke, and they'd heard it a hundred times apiece.  The entire sequence was one big sight gag.

That doesn't mean any of the other arguments are less worthy, or that ROTJ can't be a fine film in spite of or because of it, but the "roasting alive=terrifying menace" thing just ain't there.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

Author
Time

An Ewok or two wearing a trooper helmet like a trophy might have helped?

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

Yeah, when I think of the actual "menace" of the Ewoks I think them leaping down on stormtroopers from above and viciously beating them to death. For me, it's not so much about them being intimidating, but being surprisingly effective at guerilla warfare and conquering and occupying force despite their stature and seemingly minimal intelligence.

And they're cute, and I love cute things.

Author
Time

I don't want to say this, but the Gungans might be more badass than Ewoks if you ignore Jar Jar Binks and maybe Boss Nass.

I really want to be wrong on this :(

Author
Time

I absolutely love Jedi and I think most fans do also.  I think Jedi attracts criticism for certain elements like the Ewoks, but Jedi's iconography is set in stone.  It is an undisputed classic.  As for the best SW movie?  I think a solid case can be made for any of the original trilogy.  They are all great for different reasons.  

Author
Time

sunglassesatnite said:

I absolutely love Jedi and I think most fans do also.  I think Jedi attracts criticism for certain elements like the Ewoks, but Jedi's iconography is set in stone.  It is an undisputed classic.  As for the best SW movie?  I think a solid case can be made for any of the original trilogy.  They are all great for different reasons.  

 Everyone knows it's Empire Strikes Back. There's no debate; that is the best film in the franchise.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Personally, I wouldn't go quite that far. I'd venture only that The Empire Strikes Back is the greatest entry in the SW franchise thus far filmed and released.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

I don't want to say this, but the Gungans might be more badass than Ewoks if you ignore Jar Jar Binks and maybe Boss Nass.

I really want to be wrong on this :(

There are some variables to consider.

The Gungans fared poorly against battle droids. Their shield tech was good against a barrage, but the droids could slowly walk right through it? That's one heck of a design flaw.

They didn't actually win, as the plug was pulled when the control ship blew.

The Ewoks were faring poorly against the Imperials, until Chewie commandeered a scout walker. That turned the tide.

Lucky those AT AT's were too far away to help.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

generalfrevious said:

sunglassesatnite said:

I absolutely love Jedi and I think most fans do also.  I think Jedi attracts criticism for certain elements like the Ewoks, but Jedi's iconography is set in stone.  It is an undisputed classic.  As for the best SW movie?  I think a solid case can be made for any of the original trilogy.  They are all great for different reasons.  

 Everyone knows it's Empire Strikes Back. There's no debate; that is the best film in the franchise.

Don't make me give you a lesson on how art and objectivity are incompatible... Unless you find a objective measure where you can say this film is better than that, you should refrain from saying such nonsense.

真実

Author
Time

SilverWook said:

generalfrevious said:

I don't want to say this, but the Gungans might be more badass than Ewoks if you ignore Jar Jar Binks and maybe Boss Nass.

I really want to be wrong on this :(

There are some variables to consider.

The Gungans fared poorly against battle droids. Their shield tech was good against a barrage, but the droids could slowly walk right through it? That's one heck of a design flaw.

Clearly the Gungans' shields were designed by the same guys who produced personal shields for the Corrino Empire.

It's lucky for Naboo the battle droids didn't have corresponding Dune-style lasguns.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

...the Gungans might be more badass than Ewoks... I really want to be wrong on this :(

Don't worry you are ;-)

generalfrevious said:

sunglassesatnite said:

I absolutely love Jedi and I think most fans do also...

 Everyone knows it's Empire Strikes Back. There's no debate; that is the best film in the franchise.

Not everyone.

I've often considered starting an "ESB is the worst Star Wars film... discuss!" thread, partly for a joke and partly because unlike ROTJ that seems to get picked apart to infinity, ESB's large flaws are given a free pass. It's my second favourite SW movie but it's not perfect.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

ATMachine said:

Actually, to judge from The Making of ROTJ, quite a lot of thought was put into Luke's ultimate plans behind the whole scheme to infiltrate Jabba's palace. The problem was that almost none of it ended up conveyed on screen.

I haven't read that, but the way I interpreted the story Lukes intention was to only use violence as a last resort. First he tried to negotiate, then he tried to sneak him out, then he tried mind control, then went ham when they were about to kill him. That would show that he has developed a more Jedi like demeanor.

But if Jabba had decided to negotiate,  would he have just left the droids? Was Leia going to sneak around the palace and free Chewie and the droids too? Kind of falls apart for me there. So the best explanation ends up being "He was listening to the force", and that just seems like a cop out.

I still love the film though because I love the characters. Plot holes aren't as big of a deal when your audience cares about their well being. That's why the prequels ultimately fail as films in my opinion.

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

sunglassesatnite said:

I absolutely love Jedi and I think most fans do also.  I think Jedi attracts criticism for certain elements like the Ewoks, but Jedi's iconography is set in stone.  It is an undisputed classic.  As for the best SW movie?  I think a solid case can be made for any of the original trilogy.  They are all great for different reasons.  

 Everyone knows it's Empire Strikes Back. There's no debate; that is the best film in the franchise.

 There are several threads on this very site that argue otherwise...including this one!

Author
Time

I honestly think Jedi is equal in every respect to the other two films in the trilogy.  I just think when something works, it "works," and even with its flaws it is still a classic.  Things I love about Jedi:

The green lightsaber.  A perfectly timed, visually interesting way to introduce Luke as a Jedi that means business this time. Great.   

Jabba.  Before the Special Editions, he was discussed, but never seen.  His reveal did not disappoint.  He is as every bit as important and iconic as any of the SW characters.

Luke throwing away his sword.  There aren't many "tentpole" films where the hero surrenders in the third act.  Jedi rewrote the rules on this.  A lot of people don't understand this.