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The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 262

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So we could have Dooku instead of Sidious, until "Palpatine" reveals himself as "Sith" to Mace Windu ?

hm, with "confusing" Maul and Anakin as Luke's father: I rather would think Vader is lying to lure Luke to the Dark Side or other possibilities as for "Obi-Wan killed your father" (or OB1 is your father ...)

as I mentioned before, if Maul has NO scene with "Padme", why should he be Luke's father ?!

Sidious snatching the burned body and turning it into "Darth Vader" works really well, if the face closeups are cut - so the transformation is kept and even the hidious "NO" could be redone to something meaningful ;-)

as for another connection, some have brought up: the apperance of Yoda (in the PT/general) - I never had the impression that some other "Jedi Warrior" would be on Dagobah, it was the same introduction used as for Obi-Wan, the only person in a desolated place, knowing the "name" => 1+1=2 meaing HE is the guy (who Luke sought)

therefore the "great" mystery of Yoda isn't one, at least not for me (or others) - but he should play a minor role in the PT - the idea suggested, he should be like the Dalai Lama (the template for that figure) and guide ALL or single Jedi in training (as Ben told Luke ...)

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What if we took the idea of expanding Maul's character even further?  In The Phantom Menace we find him on the mission with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.  He is not either of their apprentices, rather is portrayed as an ambitious jedi who received an opportunity to shadow and study under the two great students of Yoda.  It is implied they've been on many adventures together.  I feel this could be accomplished by inserting an actor as stated before and having him say a line every so often in between Obi and Qui-Gon's making him seem to be a part of the conversations.  The Galactic Federation (a separate government to the Republic) is looking to take over the Republic, being controlled by a mysterious Sith Lord called Darth Vader, who we never see.  There is a mystery as to who or what Vader is.  On the mission at the beginning Maul gets separated or something and is presumed dead.  Only to turn up at the end, revealing himself to be the mysterious Darth Vader, having turned to the dark side in search of greater power not found with the jedi.  This leads into the duel and adds a ton of extra meaning and weight when he kills Qui-Gon.  This also deals with the part of ANH that makes is painfully obvious Anakin is vader which is when Obi-Wan says to Luke "who was a pupil of mine until he turned evil." without making Obi-Wan technically have another apprentice, as Maul wouldn't be a full on student trained by Obi-Wan, simply a lower-class Jedi shadowing him.

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pro: Maul being "Jedi" and turning against his fellows - Obi-Wan guiding him

con: Maul being "Darth Vader" from start - I think "Vader" should be either his name or a monicker, the "dark lord" later adopts

some things could/should be left in shadow, to slightly confuse viewers, as if OB1 or others seem to mis-remebmer or even lie about the past ...

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brimforge said:

So we could have Dooku instead of Sidious, until "Palpatine" reveals himself as "Sith" to Mace Windu ?

 No, we just never see Sidious until the end of the series when he's revealed as Palpatine. He is only talked about but has no actual screentime, Dooku controls the federation and the seperatists while he is in search for a new apprentice to help kill Sidious (this makes Maul one if his secret apprentices). This helps build up a reason to have Dooku in the next two movies and also a better explanation for why he is replaced by Anakin

Prequel Fan-Edit thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Yet-another-series-of-prequel-edits/id/17329

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Well, it could work in both plots:

- one where Dooku is "The Master" and Maul & Vader are his followers

Palpatine waits for his moment to take over, he has the bigger picture in mind

- the other where Sidious is the "real" master of Dooku and gives orders to him offscreen, we only see Tyrannus in what were scenes with Sidious

hm, the idea to have a Dooku, that is NOT Sith, is still interesting, it could forshadow what will happen with Anakin ...

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brimforge said:

Sidious is the "real" master of Dooku and gives orders to him offscreen, we only see Tyrannus in what were scenes with Sidious

 Yeah, that is what I'm going to do, I've always had a soft spot for the 'rule of 2' in the prequels, it makes the sith seem more sophisticated and gives them history, it shows that there are only two because if there are more then the master will be assassinated. That is why I want Dooku to be looking for secret apprentices behind Sidious' back [sort of like the force unleashed for you gamers out there ;-)]

Prequel Fan-Edit thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Yet-another-series-of-prequel-edits/id/17329

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Hm, I hoped the "rule of 2" and the "prophecy" would be somehow connected or something would be off, like the rule was a way to fool the Jedi into safety and the prophecy was from a Sith all along ...

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lol, was running out the door. Didn't have time for a description. In the case of an edit keeping the scene of Vader getting his suit/"Nooooo!", I liked the idea of his voice sounding less OT Vader and more like a mechanical voice with just a hint of Anakin thrown in. Originally tossed the concept at Hal9000 in his thread, but thought the idea would be at home here.

Preferred Saga:
1,2: Numeraljoker extended
3: L8wrtr
4,6-9: Hal9000
5: Adywan

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brash_stryker said:

nightstalkerpoet said:

http://picosong.com/2rHm/

 ......huh?

 ok, I thought something was under my radar ;-)

well, "Vader" having a more mechanical voice would be fine

BUT never never ever again please use that dialogue and this scene in THAT combination ... it almost ruined Vader (maybe did the "NO!" included on the bluray though)

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Easier and preferable to just to cut it entirely.....It was still obviously Vader, but sounded like he'd been huffing helium in parts. Plus the music is all over the place from how it's been cut. That's always a consideration when you don't have clean dialogue.

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I did a little thinking lately ... as in most conversations the Jedi in PT seem rather bad people, at least for the casual viewer, they don't do much good in saving the universe or single persons (Shmi, Padme ...)

So I thought, why don't turn the PT around? this idea comes from the fact, we got this "Godfather" montage, where Palpatine gets rid off his enemies: the Jedi.

maybe the PT could be a better trilogy if it was about him: "Sidious" - his quest for domination and his revenge (another thing many like to point out, what the Sith want "revenge" for?)

I do believe many like stories like "Breaking Bad", "Sopranos" or "Boardwalk Empire" - so we could follow this ambitious senator (the parallels to a roman emperor are easy to see) - yes he could think he does "good", but in reality his lust for power divides the galaxy ...

Even the "revenge" part could be better than "because they killed other Sith" - why don't we make it personal? maybe the Jedi killed his sister or spouse? (then we would have a bait for Anakin, for his turning)

Too dark or too ambiguous?

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brimforge said:

I did a little thinking lately ... as in most conversations the Jedi in PT seem rather bad people, at least for the casual viewer, they don't do much good in saving the universe or single persons (Shmi, Padme ...)

So I thought, why don't turn the PT around? this idea comes from the fact, we got this "Godfather" montage, where Palpatine gets rid off his enemies: the Jedi.

maybe the PT could be a better trilogy if it was about him: "Sidious" - his quest for domination and his revenge (another thing many like to point out, what the Sith want "revenge" for?)

I do believe many like stories like "Breaking Bad", "Sopranos" or "Boardwalk Empire" - so we could follow this ambitious senator (the parallels to a roman emperor are easy to see) - yes he could think he does "good", but in reality his lust for power divides the galaxy ...

Even the "revenge" part could be better than "because they killed other Sith" - why don't we make it personal? maybe the Jedi killed his sister or spouse? (then we would have a bait for Anakin, for his turning)

Too dark or too ambiguous?

 If someone successfully pulled that off, I would be thrilled. I could be all one movie that focuses on Palpatine and his apprentices throughout the PT. This would not be my go-to version of the films but it would be a nice companion to the series. If done right, this could be really really dark (like breaking bad which you mentioned earlier). What would you do to make the Jedi vs. Palpatine rivalry more personal? Is there anything out there that would make it so that you really understand why he would hate the Jedit so much? 

Prequel Fan-Edit thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Yet-another-series-of-prequel-edits/id/17329

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well, before Lucasfilm & Co gave us many books and comics to wrap our minds around, there only were some sources, which held some information on what and why in the GFFA ...

too bad, the PT never laid out what was before the (Star Wars) saga - in ANH "Clone Wars" was enough for starting the new adventure, but if you want a bigger picture/galaxy, then there should be more legend/lore to be told - Episode 1 could have started with a prologue similar to the one from Dune ;-)

the conflict Jedi VS Sith is well documented in books, games and comics - so I find it rather flat to just say: They are the bad guys, because they wear black robes and wield red sabers, and therefore we are enemies.

It is not  so much, that I didn't understand, I just heard it as a repeated point of critic: the cause of this conflict isn't clear. (maybe because the virtue of the Jedi isn't that shining and they seem to be all just force-users)

as for the "backstories" there could have been some prelude, though I did like what was told in Episode 3, but that was too late in the game and just a bait anyway ...

ideas for a reason on why Jedi and Sith battle each other for millennia, can be found in many stories (real/fictional) - I stumbled upon "18 days", which is a fine example of what I have in mind - brothers against brothers (or relatives in general), both sides not really evil, but different goals and views.

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I hope he doesn't mind (he doesn't come here much anymore) but I was in conversation with SSWR back in 2009 regarding the "Chosen One" prophecy and the Sith.

Here were some of my thoughts back then.

LPSDRIYDW2

Bingowings said :

One of the few EU ideas I really like is the holocron.

We know nothing about the Sith and what they want revenge for, the tax explanation for the Naboo crisis is frankly dull, there is an important prophecy motivating much of how the Jedi treat Anakin which adds to his fall and their role in the greater galaxy is limited to a Republic that doesn't cover the entire area.

I've thought about this in regards to my linear approach to Episode One but it could applied either way.

Think of the PT as the foreseen approach of an end of times scenerio.

People who believe prophecies about the end of the world usually look for the signs and those who are more skeptical dismiss those same events as being just coincedences.

The Temple could be seen as being like the Vatican, with some bishops and cardinals waiting for the coming of the apocalypse, the rise of the Antichrist, the return of Christ and seeing portents in current events while the majority preach caution.

Some Jedi (like Qui-Gon and Dooku) believe that the Sith are returning, the chosen one is coming and an apocalypse of galactic proportions is on the horizon, while others like Yoda and Mace are being cautious.

Qui-Gon sees the Naboo crisis as a sign that the prophecy is about to be fulfilled, he is already on the look out for the chosen one and if he is around the Sith are around too.

Having a holographic representation of the prophecy which either the council or Qui-Gon could review would help the audience understand something of the nature and limitation of and divisions between the Sith and Jedi ranks as well as the importance of the chosen one legend (which is key to why they are so crappy to Anakin most of the time).

The OT had a rich backstory which propelled and added flavour to the main story.

The PT is that backstory gone into detail so it needs a replacement backstory to serve the same purpose.

The Holocron recording need not be seen in one viewing.

Qui-Gon might view a bit about a conflict on a small world in relation to the Naboo crisis, and later watch another bit later to match some other development in the plot but it would add weight to why Qui-Gon is so adamant that Anakin should be trained and Mace and Yoda don't want him to be while giving us subtle exposition on the background picture.

The idea of having a tour around the building doesn't really appeal as a story telling device.

All those tours of Hogwarts bogged down the early Potter films for me, the later ones which took it for granted showed the building off better and served as an interesting backdrop without getting in the way.

I think that the reason 'the chosen one' aspect of the story doesn't currently work is because it's just dropped in and not backed up.

Clearly like so much in Star Wars it's part ripped off from Dune where the whole prophecy thing is explored from lot's of different angles, some of which contradict each other but also backs up the story rather than trips up the story.

Yoda in ESB warns Luke about the dangers of predicting the future, that it's in motion and open to mis-interpretation, it would be interesting if that was a lesson he himself had to learn the hard way rather than some empty Jedi catechism.

It would be fun to try and design some ancient Jedi Oracle to deliver the prophecy.

It would also be fun seeing the Sith with the same prediction reading it the other way around and that both things come true in a way that neither side understood until it was too late.

There is a tradition in stories of this kind of foretold events that everyone knows about but only a few people believe in anymore.

The return of Sauron in LOTR, the return of the Shadows in B5, the coming of the Antichrist/return of Christ in Christian based horror films like The Omen, the return of King Arthur.

So all Jedi would know about the prophecy but some would see it as just a legend or maybe a prediction of some long off event.

Qui-Gon and Dooku both believe it about to happen as does Palpatine but everyone has a different take on what it actually means.

While we are talking about the temple what do you think happened to it during the years of the Empire?

Did Palpatine destroy it? Defile it by turning into a palace or a fortress for his secret police?

I mentioned in my comments on your mockup of the end of ROTJ that it might be interesting to see it covered in scaffolding being restored for Luke and Leia to use (I don't like the EU Yavin IV thing).

It's always been assumed that the Sith are an off-shoot of the Jedi.

Even the official EU takes this line.

What if it was the other way around?

What if the Sith ran things in the dark days of Galactic civilisation and the Jedi emerged when Force sensitive people started to learn their tricks and turn them against them.

If the Sith were once the masters of the universe and the Jedi sent them back into the shadows for a thousand generations they would have a big enough beef to warrant revenge, especially if the earliest Jedi were just as ruthless as the Sith and only mellowed with all those years of peace and respect on the side.

It would tie in with Mace saying, "The oppression of the Sith will never return!".

It would be more interesting if there was a rebellion and the rebels learned the secrets of the Force from interogating Sith and capturing their archives (the Jedi archives could be built upon the much older Sith archives).

Force sensitive children would then be taken from their families and trained to serve what would later become the Republic instead of the Sith Empire.

These would later become the Jedi.

Your guide could dress this up using euphemistic language but basically the first Jedi were kidnapped, indoctrinated freedom-fighters (much like radicalised terrorists).

Something that could stick in Anakin's mind and turn around as he got older into a further and reasonable excuse to change sides.

Christianity was born during a time of occupation. Jesus' teachings are all about forgiveness and non-violence but the religions that recognise him as a teacher historically have proved to be very violent and vindictive.

The Jedi may be the same but in reverse.

An aggressive martial religion that mellowed into being more peaceful and restrained as the original threat that formed them slid into the shadows and hid in the background.

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In the mode I penned this little exposition scene which could be dropped into TPM.

Ancient Jedi : "Try to keep up!"

Youngling : " Sorry but this floor is slippery, is it new?"

Ancient Jedi: "New? This temple was ancient when the Republic was young" (The Youngling is clearly confused) "It's very, very old"

Youngling : "Older than you?"

Ancient Jedi : "Considerably"

Youngling : " but it's not worn down"

Ancient Jedi : "I wish I could say the same for myself. Do you mind if I sit for a bit, I shouldn't really...?"

Youngling : "I won't tell"

Ancient Jedi : "They built things to last, The Sith" (The Youngling is confused again) "This was their stronghold, their fortress, for a thousand generations the Jedi have occupied this place but for a thousand generations before that this was theirs and the entire galaxy with it. A terrible place of evil, pain and death, it's said to be haunted."

Youngling : "I don't believe in phantoms."

Ancient Jedi : "Good for you, neither do I, I think...."

Youngling : "Why do the Jedi live here if it's so bad, not that I'm scared."

Ancient Jedi: "Conquest is won through confrontation, that's what the Sith believed and that's what we believe too. To conquer fear you must confront it."

Youngling : "Feeling better?"

Ancient Jedi : (getting back to his feet and continuing down the corridor) : " That was your first lesson by the way, not that you even noticed and how do you feel?"

JEDI COUNCIL CHAMBER EVENING :

Anakin Skywalker : "Cold Sir...."

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I really like that Bingo! It really echos those revolutionary themes.

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Thanks.

The general idea was that the two new characters would be the Rosencrantz & Guildenstern of the PT.

They would have a small cameo scene in each film reflecting the situation that the whole order is in.

The old teacher would be killed by Vader (the final lesson, how to die) and his pupil would die deleting Dagobah from the archive records saving a certain Jedi Master.

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Ok, much to take in - and also interesting to see we think very alike :-)

as a comic reader, the first new concept that jumped my eyes then, where the holocrons - a perfect media to solve some problems, as seen in the comics they can be used to train and learn, but they are more a source of information from masters long gone ...

and here comes the bonus: not only Jedi had them, the Sith also used this device to collect wisdom and share it with their kin - there were times when knowledge could have gone extinct and lost forever, therefore the data crystals are a fine thing to have ;-)

when I saw the library in Episode2, my hopes were high, we would see the odd holo lying around or even be used by students - but no.

not in the shadow of cutting a scene like "the lost 20" - another part which was resurrected in "Clone Wars" and would have given the PT more soul and meaning ...

So the prophecy: really why must it be a Jedi has given it?

I always see and hear Yoda speaking: "the future is hard to see and in motion it is" - therefore the whole concept is flawed anyway

This could be either A) it was a Sith (lord) who "wrote" it down and over the ages it was forgotten about and rediscovered, later misquoted ...

B) a force-user (or maybe "Jedi") like Pythia (say "Oracle of Delphi") - but the problem with prophecy is, that is is not clear and can be interpreted in many ways ...

And yes, those two ideas can be combined and in the end we could have a holocron with the prophecy (if one comes up with an ambivalent text, that works ...) spoken to the audience, so this closes one gaping hole ;-)

the parallels to Dune are many, but Lucas wasn't just ripping that off - too bad the idea of the "chosen one" was a central concept in Dune, that isn't as clean to install in Star Wars (see midichlorians!)

again, here are potential pitfalls, because if one wants to build Anakin as the "chosen one", there always will be the question, why Luke is the "new hope" - if Anakin is to be the "saviour"?

Twist of fate would be, Anakin being the "chosen one" the Sith saw coming, the Jedi misread the prophecy and took it for theirs, in the end the "balance" was brought back with Luke, who is not "blind" like his Jedi masters and resisted the temptation, his father fell to ...

a cool thing would be, for us hearing the prophecy in connection with events directly before or afterwards, giving the impression it really was foretold, but only later to turn in other directions, like when one part comes true in Episode1, this part in Episode2 would take another meaning.

The reception and discussion about the prophecy intrigues me, because if one states it was already fullfilled long ago (saying the quote was given in an early age of Jedi/Sith), others see it still open or not relevant - some plotpoints can be drawn from this ...

for the notion, the Sith were  the source (not as the Jedi offspring) and later came Jedi from them - I think to have read, that before there were Jedi or Sith, there were only force-users without any order (they came later) - so the hint to "Stargate" is a nice one, because the Sith did suppress civilations and ruled large parts of the known galaxy, before they were overthrown (and other wars between them took place).

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Bingowings said:

Thanks.

The general idea was that the two new characters would be the Rosencrantz & Guildenstern of the PT.

They would have a small cameo scene in each film reflecting the situation that the whole order is in.

The old teacher would be killed by Vader (the final lesson, how to die) and his pupil would die deleting Dagobah from the archive records saving a certain Jedi Master.

 hm, like in RotJ:R, some scenes with "normal people" (other rebels, pilots), not just our heroes, would be welcomed ...

in OT 3PO and R2 are sort of "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern", they don't distract from the main story, but have their little own adventure ;-)

why they didn't reprise this from start, is up to Lucas, who thought he needed to "explain" everything and in the end confused much ...

so maybe new extras giving insight, to what and where (the temple tour could be shown through them - but I would restrict it to just one level, maybe show council and masters in Episode1, students and other rooms in following movies) was happening, could add to the tapestry and again bridge plot holes.

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To put my two cents in about the whole "explaining the prophecy" debacle, the simple addition of this, taken from the second draft of Star Wars (Adventures of the Starkiller), would have been exposition enough as to what this "prophecy" actually states: 

"...and in the time of greatest despair there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as: THE SON OF THE SUNS."

-Journal of the Whills

Edit it slightly to tone down the Jesus imagery and include something about bringing balance to the force:

"In the time of greatest despair there shall come a chosen one who shall vanquish evil from the shadows and bring about a balance to the Force, and he shall be known as: The Son of the Suns."

-Journal of the Whills

I think this fits the needs of a proper explanation of the vague prophecy, adding some purpose to its presence in the films.  The "Journal of the Whills" could be shown to be a kind of Jedi bible.

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I think it is not so much the "explanation", but more to really word it out - we only got an interpretation from Mace when he asked: "is the boy, the one, who will bring balance to the Force?"

so the idea to have "son of suns" and "balance of the Force" is a good start - both can be read in different ways, but are quite specific ...

in greek mythology there are many interesting prophecies, all in hindsight pointing to the outcome, only problem, they could have gone the other way too ;-)

I tend towards a dual-meaning text, not so much for a self-fullfilling prophecy (like the one Oedipus father got) - something along Kroesus, whom was foretold if he would cross the border, he will destroy an empire (infact, which was his own ...)

Fans of "300" will know the other famous warnings/counsels (eg: "protect Athens with wooden walls ...")

It doesn't really be an apocalyptic record - meaning an end of world, but as the translation says "revelation" or unshroud/veil (hm, Lucas tried bits here with "shroud of darkness" ...) - the "balance" can be the turning point, only who and what this "balance" really means should stay obscure.

Maybe, and here is one I see with great potential, we got so many clues already in place, only to be connected: the Gilgamesh mythos.

why? because it is about "immortality" - or the quest to find it ... and this is a part of OT and PT (in some extend).

so the prophecy could speak of mastering evil/death, becoming one with the Force (not sure if that balances anything) - it would appeal to both sides (Jedi & Sith), to find out if it was true ...

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So to throw another idea into the ring ...

some time ago I asked if anybody has read "the Star Wars" comic - seems there is a bit of the prophecy in this concept-based book - since the main source was at one point the "journal of the Whills", before it became the family saga of the Skywalkers.

anyway, in mentioned comic/backstory, "The Skywalker" is refered something like the "Dune messiah" - so we could tie up another thought some had here, to not name Anakin, and leaving his full name for the OT ...

bridging this to an idea how to name characters, because I find the name "Anakin" somewhat strange, in contrast to "(Ben) Obi-Wan Kenobi" - it would be better if Jedi had similar name-combinations or "titles" (not unlike the Sith, if one keeps "Darth" as this)

maybe "Anakin" could turn into "Ana-Kin" or "Ani-Kin" (other combinations like "Ana-Kheen"?)

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brimforge said:

So to throw another idea into the ring ...

some time ago I asked if anybody has read "the Star Wars" comic - seems there is a bit of the prophecy in this concept-based book - since the main source was at one point the "journal of the Whills", before it became the family saga of the Skywalkers.

anyway, in mentioned comic/backstory, "The Skywalker" is refered something like the "Dune messiah" - so we could tie up another thought some had here, to not name Anakin, and leaving his full name for the OT ...

bridging this to an idea how to name characters, because I find the name "Anakin" somewhat strange, in contrast to "(Ben) Obi-Wan Kenobi" - it would be better if Jedi had similar name-combinations or "titles" (not unlike the Sith, if one keeps "Darth" as this)

maybe "Anakin" could turn into "Ana-Kin" or "Ani-Kin" (other combinations like "Ana-Kheen"?)

 I bought "The Star Wars" at the EMP museum a little while back and I don't see anything useful in it to add history to the Jedi nor the Sith. The story is all over the place and you constantly meet new characters throughout the story. The only thing new that I learned was that the Jedi are called the "Jedi Bendu" I can look for more stuff but really I don't see anything that useful or inspirational

Prequel Fan-Edit thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Yet-another-series-of-prequel-edits/id/17329