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Flaws, plotholes, and "could-have-been-done-betters" in the OT (alternate plot points especially welcome) — Page 6

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Ryan McAvoy said:

Just wanted to drop this wiki quote in here...

"A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a paradox in the story that cannot be reconciled with any explanation. These include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline"

...so we can clear away some of the proverbial wheat from the proverbial chaff in this debate.

For example...

Rox64 said:

Another rare thing: what's the hole where the rebel fighters infiltrate the Death Star?  That whole hole in the middle of the surface.  What's its purpose?

...is something that isn't explained because it doesn't require explanation. Not something that "cannot be reconciled with any explanation". So it's not a plothole... or even a flaw either, although it could possibly fall into the category "could-have-been-done-better" on some abstract level.

 I've never understood the whole, "Plothole! Why is there a hole in the Death Star?" argument. It's an exhaust port. You can't cover it up because that would defeat the purpose of an exhaust port. It never really bothered me

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The exhaust port in the first Death Star was two meters wide.  It was a little convenient for the Rebellion to have a weak point and exploit it, rather than the battlestation being invincible, but in the briefing room you can still see the nervous and "we're not going to survive and tell the story to our kids" faces in the pilots.  And you can feel the tension in the Death Star trench with Luke being chased by the TIE fighters, even if we know this is a commercial movie and so it needs a happy ending because conmercial adventure movies need happy endings.

That exhaust port in the second Death Star is so big entire starfighters AND the Milennium Falcon can cross it.  That's too convenient in a movie full of convenient events.  You could guess the Empire (a government extremely focused in order and efficiency over personal freedom) would have learned from the mistakes of the first Death Star, but it seems they didn't.

And how the interiors are so wide the fighters can freely move towards the core.  It's like the Emperor himself asked his engineers to make it possible. "And make me a throne room with a bottomless pit, maybe I could throw officers for their stupidity, I'm so evil".

The shot of the Falcon losing a sensor was nice but the whole run should have been more dangerous, and the TIE fighters an actual menace like in the first movie.  The course of the battle and Luke's conflict depends on the success of Lando and Wedge! (also why not bew characters and pilots rather than already establised people?)

So yeah, not a plot hole or an inconsistency but it falls in the could-have-been-better category.

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It makes a lot of sense for the rebel fleet to get closer to the death star. It is big and slow and has to rotate to aim its superlaser. If the rebels are far away, the DS has to move only a few degrees, but if they are closer to it, it has to move more.

And a big hole in the unfinished DS doesn't really need any explanation. The emperor arranged the trap and he was convinced that the shield and the imperial fleet would prevent the rebels from getting inside. Also, since the priority was to have the superlaser operating, they probably didn't have time to install turbolasers and such.

Thanks for reminding me about the scanners, I was just typing this from my memory. Maybe the jammer was also located in the bunker. Or the jamming signal came from one of the imperial ships that were destroyed. Or the rebels' scanners were only jammed in the beginning, as soon as the DS fired its laser the big surprise succeded, no more need to keep anything secret.

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But that doesn't explain why would the imperial fleet move towards the Death Star too, specially bigger ships like the Executor.

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Rox64 said:

But that doesn't explain why would the imperial fleet move towards the Death Star too, specially bigger ships like the Executor.

Why wouldn't they?

The only think that matters for the Rebels is blowing up the Death Star, not the battle itself. The best way to achieve the destruction of the DS is to move all your forces as close as possible to where the Fighters are trying to accomplish that mission and taking the flak off them (Literally). The Imperials would have to move off after them to continue the battle and protect the Death Star.

So again, why wouldn't they?

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Bingowings said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

^I think you've watched TESB too many times for all the wrong reasons.

 Or maybe not enough.

It's clearly explained in the film that there has been a lot of meteorite activity so the second impact is one of those.

The so called teleportations and casual strolls are just editing for dramatic reasons.

 Bingo the shooting script has the probe droid appearing after luke get's dragged off by the Wampa.

That means that the meteorite was clearly meant to be the probe droid and because Luke was attacked he failed to check it out so it got away. They just edited it in a weird way creating a paradox as the footage of the probe crashing and the meteorite are exactly the same.

They even got john Williams to re-score this section for the film as the star destroyer releasing the probes was a new addition Han rides into echo base with Darth Vader / Evil Empire music still for some reason rather than the intended music and scene order. They just kept shuffling things about and changing things. especially in the first 3rd of the film of ESB. I would imagine that they felt the first act was challenging for them in many ways

The 3PO scene saying goodbye to R2 in the x-wing was originally meant to go after the scenes where Luke left 21B and said goodbye to Han and Chewie before boarding his speeder. But the new scene where R2 has the lumps of ice falling on his head contradicted this so I guess they moved it creating the teleportation effect of him flitting about so rapidly.

If it was edited for dramatic effect let's weigh that last one up.

The death of general veers makes the casual stroll as I put it all the more plausible but he is killed before the shield generator is destroyed. So that would not really fix anything unelss that was also meant to move to after the destruction of the shield generator that is.

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Ronster said:

Bingowings said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

^I think you've watched TESB too many times for all the wrong reasons.

 Or maybe not enough.

It's clearly explained in the film that there has been a lot of meteorite activity so the second impact is one of those.

The so called teleportations and casual strolls are just editing for dramatic reasons.

 Bingo the shooting script has the probe droid appearing after luke get's dragged off by the Wampa.

That means that the meteorite was clearly meant to be the probe droid and because Luke was attacked he failed to check it out so it got away.

Authorial intent doesn't matter. What matters is what is shown directly on the screen, and what is shown directly on the screen is up to personal interpretation. 

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No, this is a discussion on plot holes flaws and how it could have been done better.

If authorial intent has no bearing then what does? Your interprtation or mine?

Let's kick that straight back in to touch. i will except artistic intent deviation by director or crew but we must be clear about what was originally intended and not peoples own interpretations.

The fact that people interpret it in different ways is enough evidence to back up the paradoxic probe crashes twice.

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Now that you mention authorial intention, I see how flawed Empire is. The original authorial intent in Star Wars is that Vader is not Lukes father. Clearly, they have used the wrong take in Empire, or otherwise the authorial intent wouldn't be a static entity that never changes.

Seriously, the movie was cut the way it was cut. There surely was an intetion behind it, or it would have been cut differently. There can only be a plothole if the things we see contradict each other, not if they contradict an intetion that may have changed between shooting and editing.

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Are you watching the same film as I am?

We see the probe crash we then see the same crash again. but from a different angle.

The shooting script is laid down by the director and crew and each shot is numbered. if they then decide to cut the film differently creating plot holes that is important vs the version that had no plot holes when the sequence was first concieved and planned by the director.

Please google shooting script.

Perhaps the so called meteorite should have landed on the probes head ;) That would solve it too.

Frink you can have that one for you edit....

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This gave me an idea for The Ridiculousness Strikes Back:

All scenes in Hoth features at least one meteorite impacting.

During the ground battle several meteorites could impact on an AT-AT, making different sounds as in a musical scale.

Ben's spirit doesn't disappear for no reason, he got caught in the trayectory of a meteorite.

Maybe even the Star Destroyer that got fired by the ion cannon in the original movie is now destroyed by a random meteorite appearing from nowhere.

You could put a *DELIBERATE CREATIVE CHOICE* like in TRM when the Trade Federation invades the Naboo city.

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We see the probe droid crash. Later we see something crash. It doesn't matter if it's the same shot from a different angle. the way it was used makes it clear that it isn't a probe droid but one of the meteors they talk about. It also makes sense to show a meteor crash to establish that meteors are fairly common and nothing to be too worried about.

I see how it was originally planned to have the probe crash near Luke's position. In editing however they might have thought that this chain of events would seem too coincidental. It would be hard to belive that the probe droid didn't spot the rebels' base earlier. After all, Luke is within the range of a Tauntaun when he escapes the Wampa's cave. So what we see in the movie is this:

The probe droid crashes somewhere on the planet and slowly moves towards the rebels' base. Then there is Luke, he's fairly close to the base and spots a meteor, which he wants to investigate. He is attacked by a Wampa, rescued by Han and brought back to the base. In the meantime, the probe droid has made its way to the shield generator, where it gets detected by the rebels. Then Han shoots it.

If the rebels can spot it near the shield generator, why wouldn't they spot it, if it was that close to Luke, who is within Tauntaun range? Of course  they should have thought about this during filming, but the result wouldn't look much different.

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Why didn't Obi Wan warn Luke that a lightsaber can cut someone in half? He could have hurt himself. What a plot hole. That ruined the whole movie for me

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Frank your Majesty said:

We see the probe droid crash. Later we see something crash. It doesn't matter if it's the same shot from a different angle. the way it was used makes it clear that it isn't a probe droid but one of the meteors they talk about. It also makes sense to show a meteor crash to establish that meteors are fairly common and nothing to be too worried about.

 It was never clear to me that the second impact was a meteorite. In fact, since it appeared to be the exact same shot as before but from a different angle, I always (since I first saw ESB when I was five) thought that it was the same probe droid impact, simply edited to show that Luke saw it as well. And it's also never explicitly stated that meteorite impacts are common on Hoth, simply that there is a lot of meteor (not meteorite) activity in the system that confounds sensors.

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NeverarGreat said:

It was never clear to me that the second impact was a meteorite. In fact, since it appeared to be the exact same shot as before but from a different angle, I always (since I first saw ESB when I was five) thought that it was the same probe droid impact, simply edited to show that Luke saw it as well.

That's what I thought as well.  

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NeverarGreat said:

Frank your Majesty said:

We see the probe droid crash. Later we see something crash. It doesn't matter if it's the same shot from a different angle. the way it was used makes it clear that it isn't a probe droid but one of the meteors they talk about. It also makes sense to show a meteor crash to establish that meteors are fairly common and nothing to be too worried about.

 It was never clear to me that the second impact was a meteorite. In fact, since it appeared to be the exact same shot as before but from a different angle, I always (since I first saw ESB when I was five) thought that it was the same probe droid impact, simply edited to show that Luke saw it as well. And it's also never explicitly stated that meteorite impacts are common on Hoth, simply that there is a lot of meteor (not meteorite) activity in the system that confounds sensors.

 I also was under the impression that it was simply Luke's reaction to the same impact. 

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Rox64 said:

This gave me an idea for The Ridiculousness Strikes Back:

All scenes in Hoth features at least one meteorite impacting.

During the ground battle several meteorites could impact on an AT-AT, making different sounds as in a musical scale.

Ben's spirit doesn't disappear for no reason, he got caught in the trayectory of a meteorite.

Maybe even the Star Destroyer that got fired by the ion cannon in the original movie is now destroyed by a random meteorite appearing from nowhere.

You could put a *DELIBERATE CREATIVE CHOICE* like in TRM when the Trade Federation invades the Naboo city.

 Sometimes I think people give me way too much credit, but then the moment passes.

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NeverarGreat said: 

And it's also never explicitly stated that meteorite impacts are common on Hoth, simply that there is a lot of meteor (not meteorite) activity in the system that confounds sensors.

If you look up the definitions of meteors, meteorites and metoroids, you will see that meteor activity takes place in the atmosphere and if the meteor doesn't burn up completely, there is also a meteorite to be found. So if there is high meteor activity, chances are high that there are meteor impacts that leave a meteorite.If it was just some rocks flying around in space, it would be called meteoroid activity.

I don't want to nitpick on these terms, but since I was very interested in astronomy as a kid, I knew these definitions so I assumed they used the term "meteor activity" according to its proper definition.

Maybe I was too quick to say it was clear that these were two different objects, but nonetheless, there is no plothole.

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Wasn't years/generations an issue only since the PT?

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I dare say years and generations have been an issue (hah!) in SW for far longer than you claim to know.

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Frank your Majesty said:

Wasn't years/generations an issue only since the PT?

YES. 

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ATMachine said:

I dare say years and generations have been an issue (hah!) in SW for far longer than you claim to know.

There are more secrets written in the White Books of Magic, Palpatine, than are dreamt of in the minds of ordinary men.

Am I missing out on something here? I am not sure if I fully understand what you are saying.

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^He's embraced the absurd. Don't expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.

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Ronster said:

Are you watching the same film as I am?

We see the probe crash we then see the same crash again. but from a different angle.

The shooting script is laid down by the director and crew and each shot is numbered. if they then decide to cut the film differently creating plot holes that is important vs the version that had no plot holes when the sequence was first concieved and planned by the director.

Please google shooting script.

Perhaps the so called meteorite should have landed on the probes head ;) That would solve it too.

Frink you can have that one for you edit....

What's in the script is of as much a consequence to the viewer as what is in the comic or book or radio adaptation.

In this viewers case none at all.

The script and the film are two different things. It would be fun to see someone edit the beginning of ESB to make the two impacts the same event but clearly in the final film they aren't the same event despite what the script might say.

In this context it's not a plot inconsistency. Where the Ewok traps come from in ROTJ is, how Luke's rescue plan was meant to work is but this is not the case with ESB.