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Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 35

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MaximRecoil said:

That's awesome that they are building real props to represent ships. I've seen a lot of CGI airplanes and helicopters in Hollywood movies lately, and they are just ordinary, real world aircraft that they wouldn't have even had to build in order to film them for real.

It is the height of laziness when you have a big Hollywood budget and you CGI something (or more likely, just grab a pre-existing CGI model from a hard drive) that exists in the real world.

On relatively low budget TV shows from the '80s they filmed real aircraft (e.g., Airwolf, Magnum, P.I., and many others), yet certain big Hollywood productions today can't be bothered to rent or otherwise acquire an airplane or helicopter and point a camera at it?

Some filmmakers may also use CGI helicopters and airplanes (particularity in action films) for safety reasons to avoid a "Twilight Zone: The Movie" incident.

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MaximRecoil said:

That's awesome that they are building real props to represent ships. I've seen a lot of CGI airplanes and helicopters in Hollywood movies lately, and they are just ordinary, real world aircraft that they wouldn't have even had to build in order to film them for real.

It is the height of laziness when you have a big Hollywood budget and you CGI something (or more likely, just grab a pre-existing CGI model from a hard drive) that exists in the real world.

On relatively low budget TV shows from the '80s they filmed real aircraft (e.g., Airwolf, Magnum, P.I., and many others), yet certain big Hollywood productions today can't be bothered to rent or otherwise acquire an airplane or helicopter and point a camera at it?

 Miniature remote controlled aircraft figured into many of those productions.

And Airwolf was hardly a low budget show, at least not until it's awful last season shot on the cheap in Canada. That copter was expensive to fly, and stock footage was run into the ground towards the end, along with some of the worst model shots outside an Ed Wood film.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

MaximRecoil said:

That's awesome that they are building real props to represent ships. I've seen a lot of CGI airplanes and helicopters in Hollywood movies lately, and they are just ordinary, real world aircraft that they wouldn't have even had to build in order to film them for real.

It is the height of laziness when you have a big Hollywood budget and you CGI something (or more likely, just grab a pre-existing CGI model from a hard drive) that exists in the real world.

On relatively low budget TV shows from the '80s they filmed real aircraft (e.g., Airwolf, Magnum, P.I., and many others), yet certain big Hollywood productions today can't be bothered to rent or otherwise acquire an airplane or helicopter and point a camera at it?

 Miniature remote controlled aircraft figured into many of those productions.

And Airwolf was hardly a low budget show, at least not until it's awful last season shot on the cheap in Canada. That copter was expensive to fly, and stock footage was run into the ground towards the end, along with some of the worst model shots outside an Ed Wood film.

All TV shows are very low budget compared to a typical theatrical release Hollywood movie, which is why I said "relatively low budget". There were quite a few aircraft scenes in Magnum, P.I. (mostly T.C.'s helicopter, but also helicopters and planes in Vietnam flashback scenes, all real). Even one scene showing real aircraft flying is more than some Hollywood movies today are willing to bother with.

For a Hollywood movie to use CGI helicopters and airplanes is lazy, cheap, and it looks bad. The first time I remember seeing it was in "Big Trouble" (2002, $40,000,000 budget); a pair of CGI fighter jets, and I've seen it in an increasing number of movies since then.

Scenes of real aircraft are common as dirt throughout movie and TV history. How long before they make a habit of using CGI cars for car chases?

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DuracellEnergizer said:

MaximRecoil said:

Scenes of real aircraft are common as dirt throughout movie and TV history. How long before they make a habit of using CGI cars for car chases?

That nightmare has already come to pass (somewhat).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbDFxXU_74

I've seen that on a few "top10 worst ever CGI" type compilations ;-)

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OMG somebody REALLY thought that effect was acceptable? UFOs in Ed Wood movies look more realistic

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It certainly took me straight out of the movie and left me unable to get back into it afterward (Not that is was all that good a movie to begin with, though, so it's no great loss.).

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pittrek said:

OMG somebody REALLY thought that effect was acceptable? UFOs in Ed Wood movies look more realistic

 That's because Ed Wood used physical models and real string. ;)

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DuracellEnergizer said:

MaximRecoil said:

Scenes of real aircraft are common as dirt throughout movie and TV history. How long before they make a habit of using CGI cars for car chases?

That nightmare has already come to pass (somewhat).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbDFxXU_74

...I... how did this happen? Did they only render a preview? WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING?!?

Dboman said:

I don't care about spelling! I just want to find a mirror!

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Looks no worse than the PT to me...

I mean, Christopher Lee doing a quadruple somersault off of the catwalk in RotS is every bit as distracting and disbelief-inducing.  And Ewan and Hayden see-sawing on a Legend-of-Zelda-style rock platform floating on lava?

Hayden skydiving into a hovercar?

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Darth Id said:

Looks no worse than the PT to me...

I mean, Christopher Lee doing a quadruple somersault off of the catwalk in RotS is every bit as distracting and disbelief-inducing.  And Ewan and Hayden see-sawing on a Legend-of-Zelda-style rock platform floating on lava?

Hayden skydiving into a hovercar?

It's not worse, but it certainly stands out more in a movie that is CG-light in all other respects.  

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Darth Id said:

Looks no worse than the PT to me...

I mean, Christopher Lee doing a quadruple somersault off of the catwalk in RotS is every bit as distracting and disbelief-inducing.  And Ewan and Hayden see-sawing on a Legend-of-Zelda-style rock platform floating on lava?

Hayden skydiving into a hovercar?

It's not worse, but it certainly stands out more in a movie that is CG-light in all other respects.  

It also stands out more because it is just a car stunt, which you'd expect would be done for real, especially in a Hollywood movie with a budget of $60,000,000. The Dukes of Hazzard did hundreds of real car stunts on a TV show budget (setting a few real-world records in the process), and plenty of other TV shows did quite a few of them as well (The Fall Guy, Knight Rider, Hardcastle and McCormick, CHiPs, The A-Team, T.J. Hooker, Magnum, P.I., MacGyver, and so on).

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I've been thinking... with the shots of the distinctly 'adhoc' looking X-Wing landing field and the pictures of Stormtrooper armour. It could suggest that JJ has gone with the "Rebels never actually defeated the Empire" interpretation of the OUT ending to ROTJ. Hell it would make a lot more sense than supposing that just by killing The Emperor, The Rebels magically made the Imperials all go away.

If this is the case. Two things could be concluded. One, that it explains the absolute need for the de-canonisation of all previous EU. Two, that it makes reaquainting the general public with a restored version of the OUT, without SE changes of vital importance.

Fingers crossed eh!

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Liking these modern retakes of the original designs, purist and yet a totally modern look.

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I wonder if the chrometroopers will wield lightsabers like the stormtroopers in the old Ralph McQuarrie concept art. Concerns with overuse of lightsabers aside, it'd make for a cool visual (As long as the lightsabers aren't red, of course.).

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Ryan McAvoy said:

I've been thinking... with the shots of the distinctly 'adhoc' looking X-Wing landing field and the pictures of Stormtrooper armour. It could suggest that JJ has gone with the "Rebels never actually defeated the Empire" interpretation of the OUT ending to ROTJ. Hell it would make a lot more sense than supposing that just by killing The Emperor, The Rebels magically made the Imperials all go away.

If this is the case. Two things could be concluded. One, that it explains the absolute need for the de-canonisation of all previous EU. Two, that it makes reaquainting the general public with a restored version of the OUT, without SE changes of vital importance.

Fingers crossed eh!

Most of the EU all but ignored the altered ending of ROTJ and went along with the idea that the Empire remained strong following the Battle of Endor, so I don't really see where you're going with this.

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Ryan McAvoy said:

Two, that it makes reaquainting the general public with a restored version of the OUT, without SE changes of vital importance.

 Uh, how? The end of SE ROTJ only shows that there are riots on Coruscant, not the end of the Empire.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

I've been thinking... with the shots of the distinctly 'adhoc' looking X-Wing landing field and the pictures of Stormtrooper armour. It could suggest that JJ has gone with the "Rebels never actually defeated the Empire" interpretation of the OUT ending to ROTJ. Hell it would make a lot more sense than supposing that just by killing The Emperor, The Rebels magically made the Imperials all go away.

If this is the case. Two things could be concluded. One, that it explains the absolute need for the de-canonisation of all previous EU. Two, that it makes reaquainting the general public with a restored version of the OUT, without SE changes of vital importance.

Fingers crossed eh!

Most of the EU all but ignored the altered ending of ROTJ and went along with the idea that the Empire remained strong following the Battle of Endor, so I don't really see where you're going with this.

Granted I've not read an extensive amount of EU stuff. But I was under the impression that the remnants of the Empire were just lurking in the background and the new Republic was in charge? Maybe I'm wrong. Is all the old post ROTJ EU stuff about the Rebels still on the run and fighting for their existence from an undeminished Empire then?

Wait, looked it up on Wookiepedia legends...

"The death of Emperor Palpatine, in 4 ABY, at the Battle of Endor, signaled the end of the Empire... One month later, the official Declaration of a New Republic was issued"

Do see where I'm going with this now? ;-)

timdiggerm said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Two, that it makes reaquainting the general public with a restored version of the OUT, without SE changes of vital importance.

 Uh, how? The end of SE ROTJ only shows that there are riots on Coruscant, not the end of the Empire.

I think that's underselling it somewhat! It featured riots, fireworks, flybys, stormtroopers being attacked, giant statues being toppled and "Wesa free!". There is a heavy implication that the Empire has fallen in the "official" cuts that most people are now sadly familiar with, there is no such suggestion of that in the OUT. Plus as I said all the old EU stuff about the fall of the Empire backed up the Lucas approved line that that was what you saw at the end of ROTJ SE.

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Ryan McAvoy said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

I've been thinking... with the shots of the distinctly 'adhoc' looking X-Wing landing field and the pictures of Stormtrooper armour. It could suggest that JJ has gone with the "Rebels never actually defeated the Empire" interpretation of the OUT ending to ROTJ. Hell it would make a lot more sense than supposing that just by killing The Emperor, The Rebels magically made the Imperials all go away.

If this is the case. Two things could be concluded. One, that it explains the absolute need for the de-canonisation of all previous EU. Two, that it makes reaquainting the general public with a restored version of the OUT, without SE changes of vital importance.

Fingers crossed eh!

Most of the EU all but ignored the altered ending of ROTJ and went along with the idea that the Empire remained strong following the Battle of Endor, so I don't really see where you're going with this.

Granted I've not read an extensive amount of EU stuff. But I was under the impression that the remnants of the Empire were just lurking in the background and the new Republic was in charge? Maybe I'm wrong. Is all the old post ROTJ EU stuff about the Rebels still on the run and fighting for their existence from an undeminished Empire then?

Wait, looked it up on Wookiepedia legends...

"The death of Emperor Palpatine, in 4 ABY, at the Battle of Endor, signaled the end of the Empire... One month later, the official Declaration of a New Republic was issued"

Do see where I'm going with this now? ;-)

Wookieepedia is written by completeist fanboys who are overeagre to reinterpret everything into fitting together regardless of whether it does or not. I prefer to go to the EU itself, which paints a far different picture.

Here's what happened after people on Coruscant rose up against the Empire following Palpatine's death according to the EU.

The uprising was quashed and the perpetrators rounded up and gunned down.

Wookieepedia itself also acknowledges that the New Republic only captured Coruscant from the Imperials in 7 ABY, a few years after the Battle of Endor, and the Galactic Civil War itself came to a final end in 19 ABY.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Wookieepedia is written by completeist fanboys who are overeagre to reinterpret everything into fitting together regardless of whether it does or not... Wookieepedia itself also acknowledges that the New Republic only captured Coruscant from the Imperials in 7 ABY, a few years after the Battle of Endor, and the Galactic Civil War itself came to a final end in 19 ABY.

 Well then we can both agree that the post ROTJ situation is far from clear in the EU. The SE changes to the end of ROTJ muddied the waters further IMO. The original just left it open ended which would be best to setup the new films if they are going drop the New Republic angle.

I just thought it was a small ray-of-hope that we might get an OUT release before the new films but you've persuaded me to go back to being pessimistic about it :-(

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What I don't understand is that if episode 7 is based on Lucas' synopsis, that the empire and alliance are in a cold war with both sides having equal power, why didn't he allow this idea to be used in the EU back in 1987 when he let Zahn do Heir to the Empire?

Was Lucas' original intention to have a New Republic with the Empire defeated (as in Zahn's trilogy) and now after all these years he decided to change that for episode 7?  Or did he never approve of the EU and just let it go on since he knew he would erase it with whatever sequel trilogy he ended up doing?

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ratpack1961 said:

What I don't understand is that if episode 7 is based on Lucas' synopsis, that the empire and alliance are in a cold war with both sides having equal power, why didn't he allow this idea to be used in the EU back in 1987 when he let Zahn do Heir to the Empire?

Was Lucas' original intention to have a New Republic with the Empire defeated (as in Zahn's trilogy) and now after all these years he decided to change that for episode 7?  Or did he never approve of the EU and just let it go on since he knew he would erase it with whatever sequel trilogy he ended up doing?

Earth-616 and the Marvel Cinematic Universe don't always do the same thing. The EU and episodes 7-9 are the same situation.