Bingowings said:
I don't hate the character. The line in ROTJ is the problem.
You insinuated that Leia was possibly somewhat unlikeable due to her actions and I replied that you'd be the only one I had heard of ever having THAT issue. I never said you were the only one having an issue with the "incest situation"......I simply provided a counter argument, and stated that I personally never saw it the same way or had any problem with it.
Don't worry Bingo I getya
J
muddyknees2000 said:
Bingowings said:
I don't hate the character. The line in ROTJ is the problem.
You insinuated that Leia was possibly somewhat unlikeable due to her actions and I replied that you'd be the only one I had heard of ever having THAT issue. I never said you were the only one having an issue with the "incest situation"......I simply provided a counter argument, and stated that I personally never saw it the same way or had any problem with it.
Not so.
The problem with Leia begins and ends in ROTJ.
Up until that point the character and the audience thought Luke was a nice guy who she might become romantically involved with. She just ended up preferring the scoundrel over the hero.
I love the character. She's a complicated girl, letting Chewie choke Lando and choking Jabba demonstrates their is more than a little of her dad in her but I don't think she is playing games with Luke's affections at that point. Neither of them know they are siblings (the writer didn't even know). She might have ended up with him if he wasn't.
The problem with that kiss comes from that line, not from the character. It's an utterly bonkers thing to say in the context of what's gone before.
Put yourself in her shoes for a moment.
She has just discovered the guy who tortured her and her boyfriend and was partly responsible for the destruction of her home planet is her best friend's dad.
She then finds out that he is her brother so that means Vader is her dad as well and on top of all that...
That's a whole bowl of scrambled heads there.
And she says she somehow always knew???
Seriously??
You can almost see little Anakin's TPM declaration of love for Padme or AOTC's creepy sex looks over the horizon after that bit of shifty dialogue.
It's a problem caused in ROTJ so it needs fixing in that film not in ESB which is faultless. It's bad enough Leia has little to do in that film but to paint her as sexually weird is kind of letting the character down.
LOL. I'm not suggesting it be fixed in ANY film. I still view her statement as alluding more to a FEELING of just being overly close with Luke than an actual knowledge that they were siblings. The way she delivers the line actually indicates that it's hindsight as well. Leia is in no way being painted as sexually weird. The whole Luke and Leia sibling thing was just bad writing, to be sure. A better alternative would have been to leave it vague and let Luke go off in search of his sister at the end of ROTJ.....but Lucas wanted a clear-cut ending to the trilogy so he wouldn't have to make any more of them. It was pure laziness to wrap things up in a tight little package the way he did......but it still works. Leia isn't some weird incestual freak.....she simply looks back through time and realizes that she's always FELT like a sister to Luke.......she's just now (in ROTJ) gotten word that they actually ARE. She had never met him until ANH. Where would she have gotten knowledge that they were related? She didn't.....it was just a strange feeling she had. You ever bump into someone on the street and assume that they were a long lost sibling you never knew you had? No, of course not.....neither did she.
The "somehow i've always known line" is gone in ROTJ:R. I've never liked it. It just doesn't sit right with me. Actually, i don't think she should say anything at all during that section. She should seem shocked and speechless after what she has just been told, not the "oh yeh, i thought something seemed strange. duh" type of reaction.
^Amen to that.
There's a key difference between explicitly always knowing (which of course would make her a bit messed up to still follow through with 2 kisses in Empire) and "somehow" always knowing, which suggests to me that it's being considered more in hindsight. That she'd always sensed some kind of connection between them that wasn't romantic, but could never put her finger on what it was. This ties into her being force sensitive so it's all hunky dory to me.
Whether they should have even been siblings in the first place is another matter entirely though...
"Always knowing" means there is no hindsight, it implies foresight which takes us out of the realm of George Lucas and brings that line into the realm of George R R Martin.
Again, I did make it clear the key word was "somehow".
The somehow is meant to be a hint of her latent Force abilities. Ergo foresight, ergo yuk!
I'm finding it a bit of a challenge to articulate how flawed these assertions of yours are, despite the vehemence with which you put them forward.
If she genuinely suspected beforehand that they were literal brother and sister, then there wouldn't be a "somehow" involved, would there?
Therefore the meaning I took from it was that she sensed a brotherly connection, without explicitly thinking he was her actual brother, because of course she didn't HAVE a brother, did she? (As far as she knew). Whether she'd had this fleeting feeling of a brother/sisterly love (via the force, female intuition, whatever) she would have soon shrugged it off as ridiculous or impossible. It doesn't mean that the phrase "somehow I've always known" wouldn't have then had validity when she was finally confronted with the improbable truth.
I won't bog down this thread any further. Ady has already said what he's doing with it, and I support it, but not for the same reasons as you.
One again I bow to the size and efficiency of your Pee-Pee Gun :-D
I think Ady is right, the scene works better without the line, for the reasons he's specified.....but I couldn't disagree more strongly with your interpretation of it Bingo. There's just no way Leia knew for sure.
I 10000% agree there is no way Leia knew for sure which is why I am over the moon the stupid line (which implies she did) is going :-D
Bingowings said:
muddyknees2000 said:
Bingowings said:
I don't hate the character. The line in ROTJ is the problem.
You insinuated that Leia was possibly somewhat unlikeable due to her actions and I replied that you'd be the only one I had heard of ever having THAT issue. I never said you were the only one having an issue with the "incest situation"......I simply provided a counter argument, and stated that I personally never saw it the same way or had any problem with it.
Not so.
The problem with Leia begins and ends in ROTJ.
Up until that point the character and the audience thought Luke was a nice guy who she might become romantically involved with. She just ended up preferring the scoundrel over the hero.
I love the character. She's a complicated girl, letting Chewie choke Lando and choking Jabba demonstrates their is more than a little of her dad in her but I don't think she is playing games with Luke's affections at that point. Neither of them know they are siblings (the writer didn't even know). She might have ended up with him if he wasn't.
The problem with that kiss comes from that line, not from the character. It's an utterly bonkers thing to say in the context of what's gone before.
Put yourself in her shoes for a moment.
She has just discovered the guy who tortured her and her boyfriend and was partly responsible for the destruction of her home planet is her best friend's dad.
She then finds out that he is her brother so that means Vader is her dad as well and on top of all that...
That's a whole bowl of scrambled heads there.
And she says she somehow always knew???
Seriously??
You can almost see little Anakin's TPM declaration of love for Padme or AOTC's creepy sex looks over the horizon after that bit of shifty dialogue.
It's a problem caused in ROTJ so it needs fixing in that film not in ESB which is faultless. It's bad enough Leia has little to do in that film but to paint her as sexually weird is kind of letting the character down.
When she said she "always knew" she meant deep down there was something inside that she felt was different with Luke - something that felt like a bond much more deep than just friendship. She was not trained in the Force and therefore didn't know how to tap that knowledge or how to understand what those feelings meant, but deep down, she sensed a connection. Hence the "somehow".
I thought that was obvious by how she said it. I never had a problem with that line.
G E Predator said:
Ronster said:
Leia only kisses Luke to make Han jealous anyway...
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks that :)
I always thought that was obvious to everybody. She never had an interest in Luke like that. The kiss was just for Han to see.
Bingowings said:
I 10000% agree there is no way Leia knew for sure which is why I am over the moon the stupid line (which implies she did) is going :-D
Pretty sure you can't claim to agree with someone and then use the reason why you DISAGREE with them to back that up. But I'm done beating my head against this particular brick wall. I'll agree to disagree, while disagreeing that we're agreeing....or something.
Don't worry. The contradiction will be forgotten about when pee-pee guns are brought into it in 3....2....1....
G E Predator said:
Ronster said:
Leia only kisses Luke to make Han jealous anyway...
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks that :)
I agree too which is why I didn't suggest removing it, just shortening it to reduce the creepiness and put the emphasis back on Han and Leia.
muddyknees2000 said:
Bingowings said:
I 10000% agree there is no way Leia knew for sure which is why I am over the moon the stupid line (which implies she did) is going :-D
Pretty sure you can't claim to agree with someone and then use the reason why you DISAGREE with them to back that up. But I'm done beating my head against this particular brick wall. I'll agree to disagree, while disagreeing that we're agreeing....or something.
Pretty sure you both agreed that the scene is better without that line, so that's gotta count for something :)
Personally, I could've gone either way, with or without. If Ady can convincingly edit the conversation so Leia is (for the most part) speechless about it, I'm all for that.
Back to ESB:R?
J.J. Abrams recently announced that Episode VII will reveal that Luke and Leia are from Mississippi. Case closed, can we move on now?
Sorry to bring up the ESB/ROTJ kiss thing again.....but its all down to how you interpret the films
Muddy's argument that the line in ROTJ is fine because he sees the kiss in ESB with the ROTJ 'Somehow I've always known' reasoning in mind,....hes filling in the gaps,.....hes using his knowledge of ROTJ when re-watching ESB which makes the line OK
I saw the films as they came out, waiting three years to find out who 'The Other' was. Leias line in ROTJ stating that somehow she always knew was a groan moment, because it threw away emotions & situations in the two better films
A similar interpretation that I sometimes get is when Ben starts to explain how Lukes father died in Star Wars. Ben pauses and shifts his eyes as though he's thinking.....here comes the lies....Sir Alec in reality is putting pain into the conversation as it hurts him to talk of his old friend who was betrayed & murdered by Bens pupil
If you read back on the posts you'll see that Bingo just says that the line would be better taken out of ROTJ to keep the character of Leia true to who she was in SW & ESB
J
Jaitea said:
Muddy's argument that the line in ROTJ is fine because he sees the kiss in ESB with the ROTJ 'Somehow I've always known' reasoning in mind,....hes filling in the gaps,.....hes using his knowledge of ROTJ when re-watching ESB which makes the line OK
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's not actually how I see the kiss in ESB. In ESB they're not yet even hinted at being brother and sister.....so it's just a kiss between 2 people. Period.
I don't need to bring any of ROTJ into ESB when I watch it. The sibling revelation happens in ROTJ.....and then Leia's line, later in the same film. ESB stands perfectly well on it's own without me having to watch it while thinking of ROTJ as a crutch. In fact, I'd reverse your faulty logic and say that all those who have a problem with the "incestuous kiss" are only having that problem because they're thinking ahead to ROTJ.
Something I think ROTJ benefits from is removing the whole Jealousy of Han... Let's face it, Leia frees him from Carbonite tells him she loves him and put's her own life in grave danger to get her man back. Han continuing to question weather or not she still fancies Luke is a drag and diminishes what we have seen previously.
I also re-watched J Davdar Building Empire again recently and thought about the restored dialogue of Leia in the falcon. "we've got to go back" and again "we've got to go Back" said with more authority over riding Lando's excuses about not going back.
"I know where Luke is" although it's an admission and explanation to why she want's to go back. As viewers of the film we don't need that explanation we know she knows where Luke is and I think it once again slightly out of character that although Lando has helped get them out of trouble he now seems only bothered to save his own skin or simply does not think about their freind Luke. So After he rescues Luke from on top of the Falcon then I think the group can accept him more that he is not such a bad guy and was in a awkward predicament and does not just care about himself but does really care about others also. Leia does not know him at all where Chewie and Lando have a bit of History probably why Chewie never killed him out right.
I like Leia Being dominant at the end of the film, I think at adds much more to her this line that she still has not accepted Lando fully.
Sorry Muddy,....no burst bubbles, its just at the beginning of your debate you seem to use ROTJ insight
muddyknees2000 said:
I never had a problem with that. I always took that line to mean that, while she WAS using Luke to try and make Han jealous, she was also testing to see if kissing Luke DID in fact feel as wrong as she thought it would. Not so much a kissing of literal siblings, but more of a "Yup, that FELT like kissing my brother". And it was only in hindsight that Leia said to herself "oh THAT'S why it felt like kissing my brother".
No problem.....
J