logo Sign In

The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 21

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

I personally don't like abortion

 No one likes abortion.

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

Had the fourth pro-life sermon in a row at church today. It makes me very upset.   Under the Catholic church, abortion is never permissible, and you cannot be Catholic and be pro-choice at the same time. If you don't act to end abortion in my country (US), you will go to hell. There are no gray areas in this debate for catholics; even contraception is a sin, so you can have sex only in the most narrow definition, and that to have children only. According to Christianity, society must conform to the church, and any disagreement with the church catechism is disagreeing with God. So I have to either to reject the religion I was born with, or blindly accept all dogma regardless of how I feel about.

And all this time I thought Christianity consisted of a large number of different denominations, each with members holding to varying theological, philosophical, political, etc. points of view ...

Author
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

generalfrevious said:

Had the fourth pro-life sermon in a row at church today. It makes me very upset.   Under the Catholic church, abortion is never permissible, and you cannot be Catholic and be pro-choice at the same time. If you don't act to end abortion in my country (US), you will go to hell. There are no gray areas in this debate for catholics; even contraception is a sin, so you can have sex only in the most narrow definition, and that to have children only. According to Christianity, society must conform to the church, and any disagreement with the church catechism is disagreeing with God. So I have to either to reject the religion I was born with, or blindly accept all dogma regardless of how I feel about.

And all this time I thought Christianity consisted of a large number of different denominations, each with members holding to varying theological, philosophical, political, etc. points of view ...

 It does, but in Catholicism any opinions contrary to church teachings is heresy. It considers itself the only true church. Unfortunately it sees any sex outside of procreative marriage as a moral sin, and to not criminalize abortion is failing Jesus Christ. Even your own body does not belong to you.

Author
Time

Plus they see Roe v Wade as a death sentence on all unborn (a second genocide showing our country's grave moral lapse of judgement), as if they can be aborted at any moment during pregnancy, and that even children born to any mother are 'survivors' of that unjust law. I just fucking hate their obstinate, hypocritical, regressive ways so much I feel like walking out of mass sometimes and never bother going to church again. I understand their teaching on abortion, but don't have to shove down my throat every fucking week.

Author
Time

Well, Christian doctrine and scripture does indeed teach that we are not our own, but that we were "bought with a price."  I do believe that God allows flexibility in nearly everything.  There is a time to kill, a time to dishonor one's father and mother, a time to lie, a time to steal, and I believe God understands these exceptions to his laws.  Christ taught that the spirit of the law was more important than the letter.  I am extremely anti-abortion, but I also see that there are times when it is best (albeit far rarer than abortion-rights supporters), do not see it as equally evil as murder(if I were to do so under most circumstances, I would see it as murder, but if another were to do so, I'd see it as sinning in relative ignorance--again, I bear in mind that there are appropriate occasions and do not presume to judge anyone here).  I understand that beating the dead horse gets old, so I see where you're coming from.  Perhaps they could have a sermon on the use of foul language next week ;)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I wish I could just go back in time and stop that decision from ever being made. There is no safe stance on this issue anymore. The church will rant and rant forever about abortion, and in the end it will be an either/ or situation: the mother or the child. The church says our country permits abortion up until birth; the law says up until viability. The church says that rape victims have no choice but to carry to term. I don't what is true anymore. It has become more important in Roman Catholicism than Jesus himself. Middle grounds don't exist anymore: you always have to choose between one of several unpleasant and reprehensible extremes. I hate Christianity and want to kill myself.

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

I wish I could just go back in time and stop that decision from ever being made. There is no safe stance on this issue anymore. The church will rant and rant forever about abortion, and in the end it will be an either/ or situation: the mother or the child. The church says our country permits abortion up until birth; the law says up until viability.

Actually, the "Church" doesn't say that, because the Church is spread across the world, not just America. In Canada, for instance, there are absolutely NO laws restricting abortion. A baby/fetus can be killed up until the moment of birth up here. It is funded by the government and tax payers' money to top it off.

The church says that rape victims have no choice but to carry to term.

The argument for that is summed up as: "why commit a violence because a violence was done to you?" There are problems, but the idea is pretty much that it is better to give a baby up for adoption than to kill it.

I don't what is true anymore. It has become more important in Roman Catholicism than Jesus himself.

I believe Pope Francis has hit the nail on the head with his statements about forgetting about these issues and instead focusing on loving one another.

Middle grounds don't exist anymore: you always have to choose between one of several unpleasant and reprehensible extremes. I hate Christianity and want to kill myself.

 Well that's extreme... I pray that you don't actually mean that, GF.

Author
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

generalfrevious said:

Had the fourth pro-life sermon in a row at church today. It makes me very upset.   Under the Catholic church, abortion is never permissible, and you cannot be Catholic and be pro-choice at the same time. If you don't act to end abortion in my country (US), you will go to hell. There are no gray areas in this debate for catholics; even contraception is a sin, so you can have sex only in the most narrow definition, and that to have children only. According to Christianity, society must conform to the church, and any disagreement with the church catechism is disagreeing with God. So I have to either to reject the religion I was born with, or blindly accept all dogma regardless of how I feel about.

And all this time I thought Christianity consisted of a large number of different denominations, each with members holding to varying theological, philosophical, political, etc. points of view ...

       Christianity consists of the One Will of the Trinity. 

Author
Time

We live in a really sick world. How is that I end up a member of the worst religion in the worst country among the worst species the earth has ever seen? How can any human being murder another human being that can survive outside the mother? It makes me want to throw up.

Author
Time

I agree with your last two sentences very much.  However, I am seriously concerned about your extremely negative outlook on life and your hyperbolic views on just about everything.  The world is a terrible place, but your religion is certainly not the worst, your country is certainly not the worst, George Lucas certainly doesn't have our government by the throat, and there is a lot of good in this world.  I don't mean this to be condescending, but actually a matter of genuine concern.  I worry that your worldview is so negative that you might do something you would seriously regret.  I encourage you to look for the good in all things.  Just changing your perspective a bit can do wonders for seeing the beauty in everything.

Author
Time

We live in an age of extremes. You cannot have a reasonable position on any issue anymore. I don't know how to look for the good in things; can anyone help me?

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

How can any human being murder another human being that can survive outside the mother? It makes me want to throw up.

darth_ender said:

I agree with your last two sentences very much.

I'm sorry I make you guys want to throw up.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

generalfrevious said:

How is that I end up a member of the worst religion in the worst country among the worst species the earth has ever seen?

I think you need to go live in a different country for a while and gain some perspective.  Just for grins, give Russia a try.

Author
Time

There are only absolutes in this debate. Either hellfire or misogyny; my salvation hinges on rape victims being forced to carry their rapists' children to term, because you are still killing an innocent being, no excuses. For persons to spread STDs/HIV to their partners (even in church approved sex) because contraception is such a grievous moral transgression against God that giving your loved ones a possible fatal disease is the real ticket to heaven now. To accept the Humanae Vitae as a document written in stone and never wrong, and to disagree with it in the slightest iota is considered spitting in the face of Jesus (no matter that the Church has been wrong about other things, but they weren't sex related like this issue). To accept any fact of contraception and abortion rates in this country that does not come from church sancioned publications as outright pro-abortion lies straight from the devil's mouth, and for women to never listen to their doctors if they have any medical reason to take the pill other than sex-related issues. To define the truth as whatever the Catholic clergy says instead of your own opinion and empirical facts. Someone has to suffer horribly in this situation, it is our unpleasant task to decide who gets the axe.

Author
Time

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

How can any human being murder another human being that can survive outside the mother? It makes me want to throw up.

darth_ender said:

I agree with your last two sentences very much.

I'm sorry I make you guys want to throw up.

 If I understand your situation correctly, Frink, your child would not have been able to survive outside the womb. Therefore you wouldn't make them want to throw up.

Author
Time

Generalfrievous, try looking at the bright side of life. Count the number of things good about a particular thing instead of being pessimistic. For instance, you're complaining about living in the worst country on the planet. Remember that it is a first world country, you have the freedom to believe what you want to believe, you can speak your mind on most subjects without going to jail or being executed, you have so few things to worry about that you actually have time to complain about George Lucas and post on this site, you don't have to wonder if you're going to be able to eat tomorrow, or watch yourself lose weight as you starve to death, you have the opportunity to go to the hospital in case of serious injury or sickness, you don't have to work every single day in order to survive (so I presume--I certainly hope that isn't the case), you have the opportunity to vote for the person you want in office and that person cannot ever have absolute authority over you, you don't have to worry about having your house bombed and your family killed, etc., etc., etc.

Don't think you're living in the worst country, because you're far from it. Count your blessings, not your curses.

Author
Time

I guess the country doesn't bother me, but the church does, and I can't leave unless I want to alienate my entire family, and I have nowhere to go.

Author
Time

RicOlie_2 said:

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

How can any human being murder another human being that can survive outside the mother? It makes me want to throw up.

darth_ender said:

I agree with your last two sentences very much.

I'm sorry I make you guys want to throw up.

 If I understand your situation correctly, Frink, your child would not have been able to survive outside the womb. Therefore you wouldn't make them want to throw up.

 I guess that's true.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

@generalfrievous:

I'm truly sorry you feel that way. Just realize that the Church has certain teachings for a reason, and as some things are not laid in stone, there are some things that may be changed in the future. For instance, the celibacy of the priesthood is only a discipline and not a doctrine or dogma, therefore it could be changed. The Church may also eventually loosen its teachings on abortion in certain situations, though abortion itself will never be permitted of course. The Church teaches that abortion is allowed in cases where the mother will lose her life if she tries to carry the baby to term since it is a choice between both of them losing their lives and just the unborn child. I think this is also applicable in cases where a mother may commit suicide if she is forced to deliver the baby alive, but abortion should always be a last resort and the mother should seek therapy/counselling of some kind first. Some people, including priests, have overly strict understandings of the rules of the Church and become like the Pharisees in the gospels who focused on the letter of the law and imposed all kinds of unnecessary restrictions on the other Jews.

Don't feel to disheartened by it all and feel free to ask questions in my Q&A thread (which I can bump for you if you don't want to go searching for it). I know you are a Catholic, but it might help to hear answers from a different perspective and I might be able to help you better understand certain Church teachings that are commonly misunderstood or improperly emphasized or under-emphasized. If you want, we can just have a discussion there and talk about the Catholic Church. You can complain and ask semi-rhetorical questions, and I can respond and go from there.

Author
Time

Generalfrevious needs to embrace absurdism; it makes the cruelties of existence easier to swallow if one recognizes them as the jokes they are.

Author
Time

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

How can any human being murder another human being that can survive outside the mother? It makes me want to throw up.

darth_ender said:

I agree with your last two sentences very much.

I'm sorry I make you guys want to throw up.

 I think if you pay attention to all my posts, including my previous post in this topic, you will see that I am open to exceptions.  You know my stance and I really am sorry for the decision you had to make, but I don't feel you need to continually bring it up for sympathy whenever I share my general opinion.  Clearly I am referring to people who do so for any reason other than genuine need.

On the other hand, there are many other ways you make me want to throw up ;)

Author
Time

I can assure you I don't bring it up for sympathy.

Author
Time

generalfrevious said:

We live in an age of extremes. You cannot have a reasonable position on any issue anymore. I don't know how to look for the good in things; can anyone help me?

I'd be happy to talk if you'd like to PM me. I'm not a Catholic but I try not to tread on anyone's deeply held beliefs. Yet from what you've said, it seems like you sincerely wish to decide for yourself the truth of things, and would do so were it not for family concerns.

As for seeing the good in things, well you care strongly about the value of human life. That's a good thing indeed. If you want to start with a small change to improve your outlook, consider perhaps changing the broken record in your signature. It's hard to look at something like that every day and not get discouraged. I'd suggest Beethoven's Symphony #9.

;)

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)