Ask the member of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church AKA Interrogate the Catholic ;) — Page 13

Religious person in civil discussion: I feel that things are this way.

Non-religious person in civil discussion: Well, evidence points to things being this way, and let me give you some references.

Religious person in civil discussion: Well, there are explanations for those, here are some references, and I do take some things on faith.

Bingowings: This is the way it is, and there is no alternative explanation, and I don't need to bother offering any credible references, thank you very much.

Indeed and that's what was happening here up to the point where homosexuality was being compared to child rape, car theft, streaking etc

And pointing out similarities between one religion and another was seen as mockery.

Or occasionally using the tools of rhetorical discourse was seen as a means to reject anything I write.

Or saying someone clearly isn't something is the same as hinting that they are.

Even relatively recently revealed scripture like the Book Of Mormon makes anything I pen seem like child's play when it comes to interpretation so if I am being misrepresented or not understood should you chaps go anywhere near something as loaded as a Bible?

Especially when commenting on things I actually do and not just belief in.

As for references...gosh...golly..gee we are communicating via this new fangled interweb thing, I hear it has index if you can find the back page.

What's wrong with streaking?

It's not shameful but a bit odd or maybe shameful??

Bingowings said:

...

My sentence about Christmas was pretty much the same as saying Halloween has almost nothing to do with Christianity despite the shifting of All Saint's Day and All Soul's Day to 'coincide' with it?

Christmas is an entirely Christian holiday. December 25, though dominated by such, is not just a Christian holiday. Note the difference? One is the name of a feast day which includes a title of Jesus. The other is a date on which several other festivals and important events occurred.

As for claims that I am mocking the beliefs others I didn't start this thread or any of the religious threads on this board so please don't accuse my of hijacking it. If one is invited to discuss a subject, the discussion is bound to include this sort of material as much as DE's Mormon thread is going to discuss the 'discovery' of the book of Mormon and what it has to say about native American peoples.

Otherwise what is it for?

 I don't mind civil discussion. Go for it. But I don't want debates about whether or not you called someone such and such a name on this thread, or anything of the sort. If you respectfully presented the same information and arguments, I would be happy to have this kind of thing on this thread. But you are not being civil most of this time and are being obtuse with your repetitious and fallacious posts (to clarify, most of your posts regarding history et al. are not fallacious, but some of the claims you are making about others and others' statements fall in that category).

Bingowings said:

Indeed and that's what was happening here up to the point where homosexuality was being compared to child rape, car theft, streaking etc

You are still letting your personal biases get in the way of your logic. Did you really miss the point of my analogies? Maybe you should go back and examine why, and in what way I was comparing them. If you thought about it clearly then you wouldn't be so offended. I am notorious for using analogies, but I often use extreme analogies connecting only a certain aspect of the two things to demonstrate my point.

And pointing out similarities between one religion and another was seen as mockery.

Where was this (I'm not being sarcastic or rhetorical this time, I do not remember this at all).

Or occasionally using the tools of rhetorical discourse was seen as a means to reject anything I write.

You used them, but badly.

Or saying someone clearly isn't something is the same as hinting that they are.

If you are referring to Warbler, no, you did not hint he was homosexual, but that was a bad example in that case. I may be interpreting it the wrong way, so I apologize if you didn't mean anything by that example. I think both of you are overreacting.

I probably should have included a winky-face so you'd know I was giving you a bit of a hard time.  I admit that sometimes your sentence construction and your impressive lexicon make it difficult to understand what you are getting at.  I am sorry when your intent is misunderstood.  I do feel that you sometimes declare things with such matter-of-fact-ness that you leave little room for debate, though there is actually plenty to debate in your assertions.  That is what I was getting at.  I don't want to start another argument, especially since I do like you and am glad you're back.  Not to mention you're already embroiled in other disagreements, and I don't wish to be a part of it, especially considering I have little time to engage in much conversation lately, much less debate.  I probably shouldn't have said anything.

If Christmas is a Christian holiday, why am I expected to celebrate it or be labeled a Scrooge (or worse)?

Incidentally, forget the analogies for a moment (though they're terribly used IMUHO).  You guys can't agree with your churches' position on homosexuality and expect Bingo to not be offended.

TV's Frink said:

If Christmas is a Christian holiday, why am I expected to celebrate it or be labeled a Scrooge (or worse)?

I would think it would depend upon why you do not celebrate Christmas.  If you do not celebrate Christmas because you are Jewish or Muslim or of some other faith that does not celebrate Christmas,  you would be labeled a 'Scrooge'.   However if you are not celebrating Christmas because you are a  squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner, then you would indeed be labeled a Scrooge. 

I have a hard time believing that you do not celebrate Christmas.   I doubt you would have a nativity scene, but I bet you did have a Christmas tree and some lights and your children found presents under the tree on Christmas morning.

Bingowings said:

Indeed and that's what was happening here up to the point where homosexuality was being compared to child rape, car theft, streaking etc

I think Ric_Olie2 has already made it clear that he doesn't think homosexuality is as bad as that stuff.

Bingowings said:

And pointing out similarities between one religion and another was seen as mockery.

it wasn't that you pointed it out, it was the manner in which you did it. 

Bingowings said:

Or occasionally using the tools of rhetorical discourse was seen as a means to reject anything I write.

I don't reject everything you write.

Bingowings said:

Or saying someone clearly isn't something is the same as hinting that they are.

again, it was the way in which you went about it.

Bingowings said:

Especially when commenting on things I actually do and not just belief in.

you may have a point about this when it comes to Ric_Olie2.   But I think I have been very sensitive when discussing homosexuality, more sensitively then you have been in regards to Christianity.   

TV's Frink said:

Incidentally, forget the analogies for a moment (though they're terribly used IMUHO).  You guys can't agree with your churches' position on homosexuality and expect Bingo to not be offended.

 maybe, maybe not.    All I can do it be sensitive about the subject as I can be.    The fact that Bingo might be offended is unfortunate and regrettable, but I can't betray my faith just to keep Bingo un-offended.  

Still, Bingo shouldn't be all that offended by me, since he should also know where stand of homosexuals' civil rights and marriage.

Lots of people of other faiths think being a Christian is a sin,  that doesn't offend me much.   Ric_Olie2 wrote why he disagrees with Protestantism.  My church is Protestant, it didn't offend me.   

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

If Christmas is a Christian holiday, why am I expected to celebrate it or be labeled a Scrooge (or worse)?

I would think it would depend upon why you do not celebrate Christmas.  If you do not celebrate Christmas because you are Jewish or Muslim or of some other faith that does not celebrate Christmas,  you would be labeled a 'Scrooge'.   However if you are not celebrating Christmas because you are a  squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner, then you would indeed be labeled a Scrooge. 

I have a hard time believing that you do not celebrate Christmas.   I doubt you would have a nativity scene, but I bet you did have a Christmas tree and some lights and your children found presents under the tree on Christmas morning.

 After my children perform the feats of strength, they are allowed to open the presents under the Festivus Pole.

*rolls eyes*

TV's Frink said:

If Christmas is a Christian holiday, why am I expected to celebrate it or be labeled a Scrooge (or worse)?

 I certainly wouldn't hold it against you for not celebrating it. I know lots of people who don't, and I wouldn't expect them to, anymore than I would expect them to celebrate the feast of Mary, Mother of God on January 1 as well as New Years' Day, or observe the liturgical season of Lent.

TV's Frink said:

Incidentally, forget the analogies for a moment (though they're terribly used IMUHO).  You guys can't agree with your churches' position on homosexuality and expect Bingo to not be offended.

 My analogies were poor ones, admittedly, but that was because I had to think them up in a real hurry as I had something like twenty lengthy replies to make to people's questions. I clarified them over and over again though, so there shouldn't be nearly as much of a problem with them as their is.

I'm not offended that millions of Muslims, and even other Christians, think I'm going to hell. Period. I don't worry about it. I don't worry about the fact that they think some of the music I listen to is evil and I am sinning. I'm not offended that many atheists and agnostics think I'm retarded for believing what the Bible says. Bingo may find it offensive, but I'm not going to alter my beliefs for him. Then I would be offending a whole bunch of other people. If he is offended by my beliefs, well, I'm sorry, but there isn't much I can do about that.

MrBrown said:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

Maybe somekind propaganda in it, but also a nice list of historical things regarding christmas.

 It was interesting until it got into the anti celebrating Christmas crap and compared celebrating the birth of Christ to celebrating the birth of hitler.  stupid.

MrBrown said:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

Maybe somekind propaganda in it, but also a nice list of historical things regarding christmas.

 None of that stuff is news to me, and much of it is in fact present in a history series about Christians, for Christians, and by Christians, that I am reading now.

I'm going to comment on some stuff from that page, so sorry about the formatting changes.

EDIT: Never mind, they're fixed now! :)

A.     Popular myth puts his birth on December 25^th in the year 1 C.E.

However, most Christians who know their stuff are aware that that is only a tradition, not the actual time we think he was born.

B.     The New Testament gives no date or year for Jesus’ birth.  The earliest gospel – St. Mark’s, written about 65 CE – begins with the baptism of an adult Jesus.  This suggests that the earliest Christians lacked interest in or knowledge of Jesus’ birthdate.

Very much wrong. The author of gLuke gives many references to dates. He mentions Herod and Emperors Augustus and Tiberius as well as others. From these we can place Jesus' birth sometime in March-April between 6 and 4 BC.

C.     The year of Jesus birth was determined by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk, “abbot of a Roman monastery.  His calculation went as follows:

...[blah, blah, blah]...

I learned that when I was between twelve and fourteen.

 Christmas has always been a holiday celebrated carelessly.  For millennia, pagans, Christians, and even Jews have been swept away in the season’s festivities, and very few people ever pause to consider the celebration’s intrinsic meaning, history, or origins.

No, most people don't know squat about the history of Christmas celebrations. I had never heard about mistletoe, but it hardly surprised me as I had never thought it had Christian origins. There are multiple traditions of the origins of the Christmas tree, but I think the de-paganization of a pagan symbol is the most likely. It doesn't mean anything though. It doesn't negate the value of Christmas, or prove that Christmas is a bunch of garbage.

·       Christmas celebrates the birth of the Christian god who came to rescue mankind from the “curse of the Torah.”  It is a 24-hour declaration that Judaism is no longer valid.

Who believes that Jesus came to "rescue" us from the "curse of" the Torah? If anyone thinks that, they need to read their Bible. The Torah gave a law which was intended to be temporary until the Israelites were better able to accept a new, fuller law. Jesus came to fulfill the law; to update it. It was not a curse either, but rather an imperfect form of the law.

·        Christmas is a lie.  There is no Christian church with a tradition that Jesus was really born on December 25^th.

Christmas is not a lie just because we celebrate Jesus birth on the wrong date. We don't know the date of his birth, so we don't claim that Jesus was really born then. Saying it's a lie just because it's only his traditional date of birth and not his real birth, placed at that time to Christanize Saturnalia rather than have it develop separate from pagan festivities is retarded. I'm sorry, but it is.

·        December 25 is a day on which Jews have been shamed, tortured, and murdered.

It is a great atrocity on the part of those who did it, and I'm sorry it happened. No true Christian would support that. However, just because evil was done on the same day as, or even as part of the celebration for Christmas, doesn't mean that Christmas is all of a sudden a day on which anti-Semetism is a part. Jesus died for all people, not just the Christians, and that includes the Jews.

·        Many of the most popular Christmas customs – including Christmas trees, mistletoe, Christmas presents, and Santa Claus – are modern incarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth.

All these have different connotations now. Why does it matter anyway? None of it is necessary to celebrate Christmas. It is primarily a celebration of Jesus' birth, meaning that honouring his birth ought to be the focal point of Christian celebrations at Christmas time and none of the rest of it matters (to Christians, I mean).

^At least there's no bullshit there about "Christmas" being short for "Christ massacre". That's what I was brought up to believe.

^That's weird, I've never heard that one...Christmas isn't the only "mas" as there's Michaelmas and a few others. I can't remember what the exact meaning is though.

I thought it was short for Christ Mass.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas

:p