The Controversial Discussions Thread (Was "The Prejudice Discussion Thread" (Was "The Human Sexuality Discussion Thread" (Was "The Homosexuality Discussion Thread"))) — Page 11

Questioning an obvious joke?  Not sure if serious.

TV's Frink said:

I understand that, but again, so what?  That's why I keep calling it a first world problem - you Christians should be able to handle a little mockery, it goes with the territory of being a majority (again, at least in the US).

I'm straight.  Should it really bother me if a gay person on TV calls a straight person a straitey?

 My time is extremely limited of late, so I haven't bothered much with this thread.  However, I will say that I am sick beyond words of this sort of argument.  A majority is fair game?  How is bigotry ever acceptable just because it is directed at a majority?  Does being part of majority guarantee that all is well and good for a person?  Look at Syria: President Assad is part of the minority, yet he and his family have ruled his nation for years, only recently encountering such political difficulties.  Being part of a minority does not immediately mean one is underprivileged.  Our nation, though imperfect, has leveled the playing field quite well.

When does one really qualify as part of a minority?  In Iraq, Sunnis and Shiites are roughly equal.  Who gets to pull the "religionist" card when their brand of Islam is victimized, and who just has to suck it up?

And why do minorities deserve more shielding from criticism?  It interferes with real discussion.  It is an indisputable fact that black young men commit more crimes than any other race.  Yet, instead of individuals taking responsibility for their actions, I've often heard that it's still white people's faults for keeping blacks under their thumbs.  Why don't we instead foster a culture of responsibility so that minorities, even if disadvantaged as blacks generally face more than whites, still must accept just as much responsibility for their own decisions.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if this sort of comment gets me in trouble because I'm a white guy.

I am a Mormon.  I am part of a minority, often the focus of criticism from both so-called "mainstream" Christians and non-Christians.  Don't I deserve special treatment?  Why have you come after my faith?  I'm part of a minority.

Again, I don't mean to be harsh, but the fact is that if something is truly wrong, it is always wrong, regardless of how many people look, think, or believe like you do.  Holding double standards (cue Greenpenguino) in fact fosters greater divides between the groups we are trying to improve relationships between.

While I understand what you are getting at, I'd like to know what disadvantage you have faced as a Mormon.  I'm not talking criticism, I'm talking real tangible issues.

Also, I have "come after" religion, not just your faith.  I have a general distrust of all religions.  My focus is on Christianity because it's by far the dominant religion in the US, and I deal with it on a daily basis.  Basically, I can't get away from it.  Oh, and no one who has joined the discussion here has admitted to belonging to a different religion.

Incidentally, your church has been very vocal about homosexuality.  I see no reason to give your church a pass on this because it is a "minority" as you put it.

Sure, if something is wrong, it is truly wrong.  Treatment of gay people as anything other than equals to straight people is wrong.  You're sick of my argument?  I'm sick of religion deciding what is right and what is wrong.  I'm sick of churches claiming they have a direct line to God and they tell us what is wrong.  I'm sick of churches being exclusionary.

Religion can do a lot of good for the sick, the poor, the needy.  But it can also do a lot of bad to anyone who doesn't think the same way.

I don't have a problem with legitimate criticism, and your complaints are legitimate, even if I don't agree on every point.  What I do have a problem with is the double standard that a majority religion (or any group/community/whatever) is up for free criticism while a minority group is immune to criticism for the exact same thing.  I remember once reading in the Arizona Daily Wildcat that English-only advocates (tying them with whites) are racists for not allowing Spanish to thrive.  I found this hypocritical and stupid, considering most blacks in our country only speak English.  But somehow, only the whites were racists.  That's a bunch of crap.  If we demand equality among all groups, then we must hold them to equal standards, no? 

Again, so what?  Just for example, it doesn't keep you from getting married.  Where's the tangible disadvantage?

You shouldn't listen to everything a student newspaper says anyway. ;-)

TV's Frink said:

  My focus is on Christianity because it's by far the dominant religion in the US, and I deal with it on a daily basis.  Basically, I can't get away from it. 

in America, I am pretty sure you can get away from it.

TV's Frink said:

Sure, if something is wrong, it is truly wrong.  Treatment of gay people as anything other than equals to straight people is wrong.  You're sick of my argument?  I'm sick of religion deciding what is right and what is wrong.  I'm sick of churches claiming they have a direct line to God and they tell us what is wrong.  I'm sick of churches being exclusionary.

please do remember there some Christians that do believe in the separation of church and state, and therefor churches can't force you to accept their believes.    Also churches have every right to be exclusionary. They have every right to decide who they will let in their doors and they have right to decide what marriages they will consider legit.   Just like the church can't force its beliefs down your throat, you can't do the same to the church.

TV's Frink said:

Religion can do a lot of good for the sick, the poor, the needy.  But it can also do a lot of bad to anyone who doesn't think the same way.

 the harm that religion can is limited in America, thanks to the first amendment.

Sure, I can get away from Christianity in America.  I just have to stay in my house, turn off the tv and radio, stay off the internet, and not get my mail.

Sure, churches have the right to be exclusionary.  But you're kidding yourself if you think they can't force their beliefs down other's throats.  Ask Gay Californians.

This was all in response to why I'm focusing on Christianity. Let's not turn it into something else.  I don't feel oppresed by Christians.  But I focus on their shortcomings over other religions because they are right there in front of me.

Examples of non-religious laws forcing beliefs down throats, please.  I'm not saying they don't exist, I just want to know which you are referring to.

Still a FWP, and a ridiculous exaggeration to boot.

TV's Frink said:

Sure, I can get away from Christianity in America.  I just have to stay in my house, turn off the tv and radio, stay off the internet, and not get my mail.

that is exactly what I'd have to do to avoid seeing/hearing/reading people insult my beliefs.

TV's Frink said:

 But you're kidding yourself if you think they can't force their beliefs down other's throats.  Ask Gay Californians.

 you where I stand on issue of gays being able to legally marry.   I stated it often enough.   

Mrebo said:

TV's Frink said:

Sure, I can get away from Christianity in America.  I just have to stay in my house, turn off the tv and radio, stay off the internet, and not get my mail.

Sure, churches have the right to be exclusionary.  But you're kidding yourself if you think they can't force their beliefs down other's throats.  Ask Gay Californians.

Is it oppressive to you that so many people in this country are Christian? Religious people can and should be able to advocate their beliefs.

Advocating is one thing.  Forcing others to live their way is another. 

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

Sure, I can get away from Christianity in America.  I just have to stay in my house, turn off the tv and radio, stay off the internet, and not get my mail.

that is exactly what I'd have to do to avoid seeing/hearing/reading people insult my beliefs.

What's your point?  Again, my comment was in response to the question of why I'm focusing on Christianity.  I'm not complaining about it, I understand it is a function of living in this country.

TV's Frink said:

 But you're kidding yourself if you think they can't force their beliefs down other's throats.  Ask Gay Californians.

 you where I stand on issue of gays being able to legally marry.   I stated it often enough.   

 Again, what's your point?  I didn't say you are anti-gay marriage.  I just gave it as an example of throat shoving.

You do this a lot, by the way, arguing something that has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

TV's Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

Sure, I can get away from Christianity in America.  I just have to stay in my house, turn off the tv and radio, stay off the internet, and not get my mail.

that is exactly what I'd have to do to avoid seeing/hearing/reading people insult my beliefs.

What's your point?  Again, my comment was in response to the question of why I'm focusing on Christianity.  I'm not complaining about it, I understand it is a function of living in this country.

I guess my point was that just like you can't get away from Christianity, I can't get away from those who are anti-Christian.   And, you were complaining about it. 

TV's Frink said:

TV's Frink said:

 But you're kidding yourself if you think they can't force their beliefs down other's throats.  Ask Gay Californians.

 you where I stand on issue of gays being able to legally marry.   I stated it often enough.   

 Again, what's your point?  I didn't say you are anti-gay marriage.  I just gave it as an example of throat shoving.

My point was that I am against such throat shoving.

TV's Frink said:

You do this a lot, by the way, arguing something that has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

 sorry.  Sometimes a discussion just goes off topic.

To quote you, *sigh*.  I refuse to continue this non-debate further.

*shrugs shoulders*  

?

Never mind.

Warbler said:

?

 I thought you would continue to argue, and I was happy that you didn't.