Did they really need Carbon freezing scene in ESB? — Page 2

Criticism of ESB is fresh air. I occasionally visit John Byrne's forum to see people nitpick at it. And it's an excellent film, in my opinion.

Reegar said:

Criticism of ESB is fresh air. I occasionally visit John Byrne's forum to see people nitpick at it. And it's an excellent film, in my opinion.

 John Byrne's forum ... brrrr.

LexX said:

Did they really need trash compactor scene in SW?

Did they really need TIE Fighter chase in SW?

Did they really need asteroid chase in TESB?

Did they really need Sarlacc battle in ROTJ?

Did they really need to make the films?

No.

 No need to exaggerate. You missed the point of the question. They needed trash compactor scene - it was the only way to escape the prison block AA-23. Yes, they need TIE fighter chase because Grand Moff Tarkin had to create illusion of them successfully escaping the Death Star I in order to trace them to the hidden Rebel Base and after all in a film that has such title you'd expect to see a lot of starship battles and alike stuff, otherwise it would be strange indeed. Yes, they needed asteroid chase, because it directly followed from the context of words of General Reekan that considering such intense asteroid activity it would make it extremely difficult to detect any approaching ship. Yes, they needed to make Sarlacc battle because such cruel offering fitted Jabba's medieval barbaric style and plus added maximum of logically justified emotional tension. In contrast, the podrace scene in PM, droid factory sequence and Geonosis arena sacrifice scene that seemed like silly imitation of Sarlacc's one could have been easily omitted - the whole story wouldn't have suffered. A main demanding to a movie is that certain course of events would follow inner logic of dramatic composition. Hence where Kershner's and Ford's preoccupation came from.

Not only do they not need the Carbon Freezing scene.  They didnt need to show Vader and Luke dueling.

In fact, they could have had Luke just show up with a stump where his hand used to be:  "Oh this?  Yeah, ummm, Vader cut it off, by the way, he's my dad."

I so love when you say that your opinion is true.

In terms of romantic storyline, yeah there wasn't much left in ROTJ. But it didn't have to be that way. They could have done one of two things to keep the romance plot interesting in ROTJ:

1. Make the romance sub-plot be about Han saying "I love you" to Leia. Yeah, I know he did, but that was really a throwaway line. Han telling Leia "I know" was not just because he felt like it. That was his character. So what I'm saying is the Han/Leia arc could have developed Han into the guy who would say "I love you" back. If you know what I'm trying to say.

2. ANH and ESB set up a love triangle with Han, Leia, and Luke. ROTJ could have finally faced the triangle head.

But neither of these happened. Han's characterization sputtered, and Luke became Leia's brother. So, really, the romance potential in ROTJ was nixed not by ESB, but by Lucas (I think). 

Well, I have to say that ROTJ Han/Leia arc worked pretty well for me, I loved ROTJ as needed relief after darkness of ESB and was glad to know that nothing stands in a way of their love )) as it could be if Luke wasn't positioned as Leia's brother. So, in spite of whatever motivation Lucas had behind making a plot of ROTJ I agree with the version we saw (had no problems with the Ewoks either, btw). The only thing I feel could have been included is a brief wedding ceremony of Han and Leia. Was it supposed at least?

And one more thing: why "I love you - I know" was "a comic relief"? There wasn't any "laugh-out-loud" feeling about the whole scene. I was deeply shocked (in a positive sense) and deeply impressed when the princess revealed her love to  Han, not Luke. After all Han was a handsome guy with Harrison Ford-like appearance ))), and it was so unusual when one of two main characters falls in love with someone who isn't the other main character (if to assume that the whole saga is about Skywalker family), but such a scoundrel, who breaks rules and brings flush of a fresh air. It would be so boring if Lucas and Co followed traditional path of Hollywood movie-making: Luke was too disciplined, too idealistic and so was Leia so that needed to be diluted ;) However, one should note that regardless of what could improve development of characters, it's quite obvious that the crash Fisher had on Ford (and the impression that she still has :D), had MUCH to do with screen-writers or/and directors to pair them ON-screen ) And it was excellent. 

imperialscum said:

 But there is only some evidence of love triangle in ANH. In ESB it pretty much disappears. There is this kiss scene but the context was different (ie Liea just did to shut up Han... she could kiss Chewie with the same affect). The triangle from ANH was broken in ESB with obvious indications that Liea prefers Han and was then completely shattered by Leia proclaiming her love to Han in the very scene that is a subject of discussion now.

The situation with the "love triangle" is quite interesting ) While after ANH the viewer expected Luke+Leia, even here were chirk moments what from nowadays perspective looks like the princess was seduced more by Solo -  despite him deserving the image of "mercenary" -  than Luke (haha, when Solo attacked stormtroopers alone and melted into thin air Leia exclaimed enthusiastically :"He's brave!" with some sort of twinkle), and to be honest I intuitively felt this was going to have continuation :)))

The triangle practically disappears from ESB because Luke spends most of his time away from the other two. Yeah, Leia professes her love for Han in ESB, which would seem to put a fork in it, but if she wasn't made Luke's sister, Luke still could've had interest in her which would have made for some interesting material in ROTJ.

...with the 2 different ways: Leia turns her back to Solo and - after the rescue from Jabba and enormous efforts, balancing on the edge of death -  falls in love with Luke, which would be rather annoying and stubborn move, even worse that PT  and in a fashion of a shoddy mexican soap opera; other possibility - Leia stays with Han, maybe gets married him, while Luke turns Dark Side and we have the stepping stone to episode 7 (and eventually 8&9) :DDDDDDDDDDD Smth bad is with the Skywalkers, they every time seem to not stand against the Dark Side, so the Chosen One could have Solo surname :DDD Just SW humor 

luckydube56 said:

Not only do they not need the Carbon Freezing scene.  They didnt need to show Vader and Luke dueling.

In fact, they could have had Luke just show up with a stump where his hand used to be:  "Oh this?  Yeah, ummm, Vader cut it off, by the way, he's my dad."

 The problem with this approach is that it can be used to excuse anything.

1: "Did the podrace in TPM really need to be so drawn out?"

2: "Did they really need the asteroid chase in TESB?"

or

1: "Did Anakin and Obi-Wan need to be that close to the lava on Mustafar? It destroys believability when they don't even break a sweat."

2: "Did Star Wars really need to happen?"

SilverWook said:

Reegar said:

Criticism of ESB is fresh air. I occasionally visit John Byrne's forum to see people nitpick at it. And it's an excellent film, in my opinion.

 Some people also feel the inexplicable need to take potshots at a classic film just to generate some attention. I predict someone will "reevaluate" Lawrence of Arabia in the new year.

 True, true.

imperialscum said:

As much as I love ESB, it is actually refreshing to see some deviation from the usual "ESB is perfect" attitude.

 Exactly. Nothing's perfect.