Info Wanted: The question of orange, red, and magenta

I just watched Harmy’s New Hope (plus the making of youtube clip) and Empire which reminded me of something I learned in Film 101 back when I was an undergrad. This was back in the 90s so we are talking CRTs and VHS being the norm. I was told that home video could not replicate a “true” red, what we saw as red was a some sort of orange red that wasn’t the same (easy to spot if you compared the screen color to a red object). Once you see this, it is hard to unsee (much like macro blocks and smearing).

Do DVDs and LED/Plasm/LCDs still have this red limitation? The reason I ask this is that some of the magenta shots in the official releases have been recolored by Harmy and others, but in the 2.1 and Empire 1.0 it seems that what was once magenta is now either the old VHS “off” red or some sort of Venetian Red/Oxide Red/Burnt Sienna. Maybe these were the true colors as in the original prints? I don’t know. Perhaps this is why the official releases are shifted to magenta; it was a decision to shift them away from rust or orange.

Either way, thank you Harmy and all involved, the preservation are a pleasure to watch.

Cheers

Are you in one of the green countries on this map? Apparently the NTSC system used there was jokingly referred to as "never the same colour", but since I'm in a PAL country I don't have any firsthand experience and can't say how much of an issue it was in practice.

In other words, this post tells you nothing :)

I'd always understood it as the official releases were shifted to pink/magenta because of natural colour fade in the print/negative, and that this became more apparent when the low fade technicolor print pictures (and video clips) from the Senator screening came to light to be able to compare. The PAL 1982 VHS is really pink compared to the NTSC releases from around the same time. I think this was a case of the limitations of the format and the average consumer not looking out for that stuff/expecting as much maybe.

Papercut said:

Do DVDs and LED/Plasm/LCDs still have this red limitation?

No - The red limitation was, AFAIK, a CRT issue only. I'm trying to find a scientific or other article to verify this, but I haven't found one.  

<p>Thank you for the intersting input! The teaching in question was from the USA so NTSC for sure. <br /><br />I'll watch thru the Harmy Discs and point out the off red when I see it (even though this is not on CRT). </p>

The idea is that items that were filmed as fire engine cherry red (to show danger for example) were not reproduced as true red in the home (red in the theatre), more like an orange red. But, we perceived it as red in the context of the film, once one sees it though, it is hard to unsee.

Wow, that explains alot! So movies that shoot a true red have trouble on NTSC sets. Very interesting.

One place that jumps out at me is the trash compactor scene in ANH. The red light when the walls start closing reminds me of the NTSC off red. I need to look at it a bit more closely though to confirm.

If something was originally shot as a true high chroma intense red on film, when it is transferred to NTSC format, the red (and yellows) it seems get compressed down to another color. Or that is what seems to be what my professor was talking about.

If something was originally shot as a true high chroma intense red on film, when it is transferred to NTSC format, the red (and yellows) it seems get compressed down to another color. Or that is what seems to be what my professor was talking about.

If I'm following the discussion correctly, that's true, but only if A.) we're talking about a composite NTSC signal (which is what you would generally be dealing with in the 90's), and B.) it wasn't darkened a bit instead of shifted wholesale. 

So long story short, if you're watching VHS, Betamax, or Laserdisc, it's going to be a problem pretty much no matter what. If you're watching a more modern format like DVD or Blu-Ray, which keeps the luminance and chrominance information separate natively, then it's only an issue if you're using a composite connection for some reason. Switching to HDMI, component, or even an S-Video cable would take care of the issue in that case.