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Random Thoughts — Page 244

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NeverarGreat said:

Probably flying blind. People just assume that everything will work out if they work hard and follow their passions, but we all know that this is BS.

I think it's part of this whole "we aren't a vocational school" attitude that high school faculty/staff have nowadays. It's almost as if they're afraid to discuss careers outside of academia with students.

I went to an average public high school in New Jersey and post-HS plans were only discussed once or twice in prearranged meetings with "guidance" counselors.

I think they just assumed that everyone would go to some kind of college and figure out their future plans there. Unfortunately, many (most?) of those college-bound students fly blind during those four years and wind up in a situation like your friend.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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CP3S said:

Nonsense!

By that logic all we should be pumping out of our universities would be engineers and computer science majors, and other boring drones.

Someone sounds jealous.

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AntcuFaalb said:

 

I think it's part of this whole "we aren't a vocational school" attitude that high school faculty/staff have nowadays. It's almost as if they're afraid to discuss careers outside of academia with students.

I went to an average public high school in New Jersey and post-HS plans were only discussed once or twice in prearranged meetings with "guidance" counselors.

I think they just assumed that everyone would go to some kind of college and figure out their future plans there. Unfortunately, many (most?) of those college-bound students fly blind during those four years and wind up in a situation like your friend.

It's not faculty and staff. It's politicians. (in the US at least)

Schools are largely judged on how many college ready students they produce, not how many students leave school with a good plan for a paying vocation.

That's why vocational training budgets are constantly being cut. Classes like wood shop, Air conditioner repair, auto shop, turf management are always being cut because they don't fit into higher test scores and federal funding. 

A major change is needed, but it needs to come from the top. 

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CP3S said:

Nonsense!

By that logic all we should be pumping out of our universities would be engineers and computer science majors, and other boring drones.

Have you ever worked with engineers? They tend to be some of the most creative problem solving people I've ever met.

On the other hand, put me in a room with a bunch of Lit majors and I hear the same ideas constantly being regurgitated. 

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Gotta love being an English major. Ever since I decided I wasn't sure I wanted to be a teacher everyone's been telling me I'm doomed and should really switch. *sigh*

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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bkev said:

Gotta love being an English major. Ever since I decided I wasn't sure I wanted to be a teacher everyone's been telling me I'm doomed and should really switch. *sigh*

What are your career plans?

It's not necessarily about the major. I know of people who chose to earn a major in their favorite subject because their current job was funding it and just wanted them to have "Bachelors in X" on file.

The real question is: How do you intend to earn money when you're done with school?

If you can't answer this question, then I'd start working on answering it ASAP.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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I have a date for Saturday...It's been a fucking week and I have a date.

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sean wookie said:

I have a date for Saturday...It's been a fucking week and I have a date.

Awesome. Congrats!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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 (Edited)

TV's Frink said:

CP3S said:

Nonsense!

By that logic all we should be pumping out of our universities would be engineers and computer science majors, and other boring drones.

Someone sounds jealous.

And who would that be?

I love my degrees! With them I get to do what I really enjoy doing, live the life I want to lead, and I get to travel around and relocate when I feel like it. I wouldn't trade it.

 

TheBoost said:

CP3S said:

Nonsense!

By that logic all we should be pumping out of our universities would be engineers and computer science majors, and other boring drones.

Have you ever worked with engineers? They tend to be some of the most creative problem solving people I've ever met.

On the other hand, put me in a room with a bunch of Lit majors and I hear the same ideas constantly being regurgitated. 

Yeah, I know a lot of engineers personally, my best friend is one. I'm not knocking them by any means, we need people with those kinds of skills, the point I was trying to make was that we need more out of our universities than just an endless assembly line of engineers, medical professionals, business and CS graduates.

Never's line of reasoning that if it doesn't make anything then it isn't worth it is flawed. I agree that flying blind, not striving to make yourself marketable, and just expecting it to fall into place because you earned a degree is dumb. I think we put far too much emphasis on the college degree in American, and as a result we have a market place filled with unemployed (or underemployed) people with degrees they will never find work in.

But that doesn't mean anything not related to these high in demand fields is useless. I hear that sentiment way too often anymore, it feels like we've grown jaded, given up, and are now telling our kids if you're not going to do this, don't even bother. If someone is just flying blind and getting a degree to get a degree, then feel free to educate them on the likely reality of the situation, but these other fields still exist and are viable. I'd hate to see a value shift in our society (which I think we are starting to see) where art, social sciences, and the humanities are considered obsolete and useless. 

A college diploma shouldn't be the new high school diploma, and the government shouldn't be dishing out grants and funding to everyone interested in getting one. It should be for those ambitious enough to have an end in mind.

 

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AntcuFaalb said:

CP3S said:

I generally consider all undergraduate degrees useless. They are easy to obtain and the market is over saturated with them. Undergraduate education is the new high school diploma, and who hangs their high school diploma on the wall?

I know it's only anecdotal, but I make a six-figure salary + benefits with my useless CS undergraduate degree and I'm only 2.5 years out of university. This is not uncommon amongst computer programmers, IIRC.

Undergraduate degrees are only useless if you choose the wrong major*. I don't think everyone should choose to pursue a STEM degree, of course, but we should be preparing prospective undergrads for the reality of the job market that they'll encounter after graduation rather than filling their heads with the standard "follow your dreams" nonsense.

* None of this applies if one plans to pursue higher degree(s) and/or plans to go into academia.

       People in Germany begin receiving vocational training in "High School".

       I wrote about eliminating all public education before the 11th birthday and replacing it with mandatory testing every six months and tax refunds going to the parent who stays home. 

      These better educated, socialized, and supervised kids would enthusiastically enter the next stage from 11 to 16. Six bad weather months would be spent exclusively on general and practical subjects such as Practical Math, English Comprehension and Composition and Essential Management of Sexuality. The good weather six months would be spent in carefully supervised member-managed clubs for personal interest such as Athletics, Popular Musical Instruments (keyboards, guitars, drums), Science, Advanced Mathematics, IT and Literature.

      The fiction of adulthood at 18 would end. Kids from 16+ to 21 could take-on limited adult responsibilities such as driving and Vocation Education Loans with approval and some contribution from a parent or guardian. Parents would remain responsible for the housing and feeding of these kids to 21. A 20 year old could not be housed away any more than a 17 year old. All vocational and advanced education would be paid for out-of-pocket or with loans until the student graduates AND finds paid work in a field related to his/her degree and only then could the graduate receive any scholarships or grants (this would encourage kids and parents to be very careful and not waste time and money.) Loans would only go to kids of proven aptitude in the chosen field after careful testing and would continue only if the kids are advancing in those subjects. Elementary schools could be converted to community college/votech centers and other facilities could be built within an easy commute. Instructors could travel to different centers. Only kids from very rural areas or in unusual advanced courses would be boarded away. Kids with serious legal/moral troubles would have to go into sex-segregated classes under even greater supervision. The student/instructor relationship would be as middle-school is supposed to be now.

       Before 1950, kids under 21 were sent off to boarding type educational institutions primarily because of transportation limitations and not because it is the best way to prepare these little snips for real life.  

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Oh god we did some chatting on Gtalk and this girl seems way overqualified for me to go out with. I'm going to have to be funny.

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Mr. Show - Coupon: The Movie
The Ridiculous Menace Teaser Trailer
Rogue-theX's Attack of the Clones Super 8 Trailer
Seinfeld - Vandelay Industries Trailer
Star Wars Call Me Maybe
The Room - Official Trailer
Shining - Rom Com Trailer
TMBTM's War of the Stars II Trailer
The Room - Trailer Redux (NSFW Language Warning)
Attack of the Ridiculous - Full Trailer

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Never think that way. Don't sell yourself short, I've met you, you're a really cool guy capable of some very deep thinking and some really interesting discussion. You can also be pretty funny. She might even see qualities in you that she likes that you yourself are blind to. Just be yourself and be confident about it. Confidence is sexy, even if you're not feeling it, force it a little. Not saying act like an arrogant dickwad or anything, but just keep reminding yourself that you are a really great guy and you're totally worthwhile, if she fails to see that then her loss and you move onto the next one. If you feel like you're not worth her time, she might pick up on that vibe, even if it is not true. We're horrible at judging ourselves, let her be the one to decide if you are worth her time or not.

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^^Agreed. If you see her as out of your league you have already lost because girls pick up on that stuff. 

Just take charge and act natural and you will do great!

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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thejediknighthusezni said:

AntcuFaalb said:

CP3S said:

I generally consider all undergraduate degrees useless. They are easy to obtain and the market is over saturated with them. Undergraduate education is the new high school diploma, and who hangs their high school diploma on the wall?

I know it's only anecdotal, but I make a six-figure salary + benefits with my useless CS undergraduate degree and I'm only 2.5 years out of university. This is not uncommon amongst computer programmers, IIRC.

Undergraduate degrees are only useless if you choose the wrong major*. I don't think everyone should choose to pursue a STEM degree, of course, but we should be preparing prospective undergrads for the reality of the job market that they'll encounter after graduation rather than filling their heads with the standard "follow your dreams" nonsense.

* None of this applies if one plans to pursue higher degree(s) and/or plans to go into academia.

       People in Germany begin receiving vocational training in "High School".

       I wrote about eliminating all public education before the 11th birthday and replacing it with mandatory testing every six months and tax refunds going to the parent who stays home. 

      These better educated, socialized, and supervised kids would enthusiastically enter the next stage from 11 to 16. Six bad weather months would be spent exclusively on general and practical subjects such as Practical Math, English Comprehension and Composition and Essential Management of Sexuality. The good weather six months would be spent in carefully supervised member-managed clubs for personal interest such as Athletics, Popular Musical Instruments (keyboards, guitars, drums), Science, Advanced Mathematics, IT and Literature.

      The fiction of adulthood at 18 would end. Kids from 16+ to 21 could take-on limited adult responsibilities such as driving and Vocation Education Loans with approval and some contribution from a parent or guardian. Parents would remain responsible for the housing and feeding of these kids to 21. A 20 year old could not be housed away any more than a 17 year old. All vocational and advanced education would be paid for out-of-pocket or with loans until the student graduates AND finds paid work in a field related to his/her degree and only then could the graduate receive any scholarships or grants (this would encourage kids and parents to be very careful and not waste time and money.) Loans would only go to kids of proven aptitude in the chosen field after careful testing and would continue only if the kids are advancing in those subjects. Elementary schools could be converted to community college/votech centers and other facilities could be built within an easy commute. Instructors could travel to different centers. Only kids from very rural areas or in unusual advanced courses would be boarded away. Kids with serious legal/moral troubles would have to go into sex-segregated classes under even greater supervision. The student/instructor relationship would be as middle-school is supposed to be now.

       Before 1950, kids under 21 were sent off to boarding type educational institutions primarily because of transportation limitations and not because it is the best way to prepare these little snips for real life.  

I think that one important aspect of education that has mostly disappeared is the apprenticeship aspect. Most kids don't learn by sitting in a classroom copying information that they are told will be useful and being tested on regurgitation. Kids roleplay. They see adults that they admire on TV, in movies or video games, or in real life, and they model their lives to some extent on this person, or the profession that they are employed in. If they are only ever with kids their own age, then there can be unpredictable shifts in behavior as everyone in the group models their behavior off of that same group, and not off of good role models. With an apprenticeship, there is a much greater opportunity to learn many more aspects of the job than just the technical requirements. You can make connections with people in the industry, learn the personal habits of the person you apprentice under, and get a much better sense of what is to be required of you.

I wanted to be an architect at one point, but then I actually worked for one. I did 3D modelling work for presentations, something that didn't require much architectural knowledge, but I got a good idea of what that job entailed, as well as contributing to society and earning some money. This saved the college system and myself four years, as I realized that I didn't want to be an architect after all.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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      ^Those are good points.

       An advantage of rethinking education and seeing 16 as a start for vocation training while still home is that there could be more room for "false starts". Any scholarships or grants-in-aid could go towards the final choice. 

       We get the sort of society we subsidize. Non-vital fathers, Over-worked and isolated mothers, kids who blow tens of thousands on sheer time-wasting nonsense...

       I'd rather see kids still at home until 21 instead of back in the basement at 28. They progress to 12 or 13 and then slide down until 21 anyway.

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thejediknighthusezni said:

      ^Those are good points.

       An advantage of rethinking education and seeing 16 as a start for vocation training while still home is that there could be more room for "false starts". Any scholarships or grants-in-aid could go towards the final choice. 

       We get the sort of society we subsidize. Non-vital fathers, Over-worked and isolated mothers, kids who blow tens of thousands on sheer time-wasting nonsense...

       I'd rather see kids still at home until 21 instead of back in the basement at 28. They progress to 12 or 13 and then slide down until 21 anyway.

Remember that some people progress at different rates. While vocational training at sixteen or earlier may work for some, others will still prefer more esoteric and technical knowledge.

What exactly do you mean by "slide down until 21"? Do you mean that kids tend to become less focused and driven until then? Again, I wouldn't lump all kids into this category, but I think that people slide down perpetually even after this point.

I'm currently in college in America, and many people are simply there because it is expected of them. It wouldn't matter what subject was taught, or whether it directly applied to their life or not. They simply would not feel that it was important. Some of this I think has to do with the American government. We've been involved in a war in the middle east for over a decade and are engaged in a perpetual and unwinnable war on Terrorism, as well as failed wars on drugs and crime. We don't look to the stars anymore, and our political system is a sad farce. Our financial problems are worse than ever, and our health as a nation is declining. Is this the kind of future that you would want?

If we had a bright future to look forward to, then our students may become more motivated even with our flawed educational system.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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CP3S said:

Never think that way. Don't sell yourself short, I've met you, you're a really cool guy capable of some very deep thinking and some really interesting discussion. You can also be pretty funny. She might even see qualities in you that she likes that you yourself are blind to. Just be yourself and be confident about it. Confidence is sexy, even if you're not feeling it, force it a little. Not saying act like an arrogant dickwad or anything, but just keep reminding yourself that you are a really great guy and you're totally worthwhile, if she fails to see that then her loss and you move onto the next one. If you feel like you're not worth her time, she might pick up on that vibe, even if it is not true. We're horrible at judging ourselves, let her be the one to decide if you are worth her time or not.

Well, I mean she has a job, an education, a car. I have none of these.

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NeverarGreat said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

      ^Those are good points.

       An advantage of rethinking education and seeing 16 as a start for vocation training while still home is that there could be more room for "false starts". Any scholarships or grants-in-aid could go towards the final choice. 

       We get the sort of society we subsidize. Non-vital fathers, Over-worked and isolated mothers, kids who blow tens of thousands on sheer time-wasting nonsense...

       I'd rather see kids still at home until 21 instead of back in the basement at 28. They progress to 12 or 13 and then slide down until 21 anyway.

Remember that some people progress at different rates. While vocational training at sixteen or earlier may work for some, others will still prefer more esoteric and technical knowledge.

What exactly do you mean by "slide down until 21"? Do you mean that kids tend to become less focused and driven until then? Again, I wouldn't lump all kids into this category, but I think that people slide down perpetually even after this point.

I'm currently in college in America, and many people are simply there because it is expected of them. It wouldn't matter what subject was taught, or whether it directly applied to their life or not. They simply would not feel that it was important. Some of this I think has to do with the American government. We've been involved in a war in the middle east for over a decade and are engaged in a perpetual and unwinnable war on Terrorism, as well as failed wars on drugs and crime. We don't look to the stars anymore, and our political system is a sad farce. Our financial problems are worse than ever, and our health as a nation is declining. Is this the kind of future that you would want?

If we had a bright future to look forward to, then our students may become more motivated even with our flawed educational system.

      Slide down? I mean all the typical teen stuff. Feeling their oats without having the first clue how to deal with it in a non-destructive way, not even understanding how completely clueless they are (though they are supposed to be clueless), emotional and self-conscious...The whole disaster. Yes there are a few exceptions here and there, but it's 21 before they even begin making up lost ground. They REQUIRE the assistance of been-there-done-that adults who care about them if they are to steer clear of very dangerous obstacles.

    We had the problem of unfocused college students back in my time of the late 70s-early 80's and ever since. If it is worse now it is because of political leaders who destroy the economy by giving home loans to those who could never pay back and then foster an atmosphere of hopeless dependency on the same nit-wit sort of policies.

     "...flawed educational system"? It is certainly FLAWED. I would call it HORRIFYINGLY, CATASTROPHICALLY DESTRUCTIVE. The elementary students who are utterly burnt-out on the idea of "education" before they reach age 11, The parents who are rendered unable to properly care for their offspring up to and including divorce because of the mad effort to pay for the hyper-expensive public system, the kids between 13 and 21 thrown together in big unsupervised masses becoming involved in vice, the public "teachers" who are more interested in dumbing them down to believe in everything that tears the society apart instead of all the things that make this country a great and decent and good place...

       Another problem is the relic of the "Degree". It is from the dark ages when nobles and clergy and noble-clergy were called upon to be judges AND theologians and an entirely seperate enlightened elite. The Enlightenment encouraged these educated elites to believe they should be expert in everything. In a perfect world I would be all-for this conception of the "well rounded" college grad. In this world, people have the greatest difficulty maintaining a basic level of competency in just one subject. Also, I despise this impulse to regard oneself as a member of an enlightened and superior elite in morality and general intellect. It is EXTREMELY dangerous.

        The very concept of "Degree" should be completely eliminated. It should be replaced with the understanding that Graduation and Licensure/Certification are one and the same thing. Everyone should clearly understand that the ablility to jump through the hoops in a particular subject in no way suggests superiority in any other sense and that these characters could just as easily be stupid rats. The "Doctor" honorific should be reserved for those who attain the highest degree of competency in an advanced field such that they could serve as advanced intructors AND they must have the moral charactaristics of humility and a strong sense of pathetic limitation.

        Kids should be taught the basic Facts and Truths of what works and what, one way or another, is proven to be destructive wherever attempted. This could be done in interesting Reading Comprehension/Civics courses. They should also be strongly encouraged to pursue further reading whenever possible on their own 

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sean wookie said:

Well, I mean she has a job, an education, a car. I have none of these.

But don't you see man, you have already lost if you are thinking this way.  It's all attitude! So she has a job, education, car, etc.  That's a great thing but it doesn't make her an intrinsically better person or you a worse person. 

You may be overflowing with values and/or traits that she doesn't have any of or has very little of.  In fact, that is probably the case. 

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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In my book a lack of a car is a positive like the lack of broadcast television in your home.

I've never wanted a car.

I've sometimes wished I was able to learn to drive so I could hire one once in a while but ownership of a car is a millstone, a money vampire and an environmental pollutant.

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Bingowings said:

In my book a lack of a car is a positive like the lack of broadcast television in your home.

I've never wanted a car.

I've sometimes wished I was able to learn to drive so I could hire one once in a while but ownership of a car is a millstone, a money vampire and an environmental pollutant.

I'm actually taking drivers training. I took drivers training when I was 18 and I hated it, now that I'm 5 years older I can handle it better.

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Bingowings said:

In my book a lack of a car is a positive like the lack of broadcast television in your home.

I've never wanted a car.

I've sometimes wished I was able to learn to drive so I could hire one once in a while but ownership of a car is a millstone, a money vampire and an environmental pollutant.

Yes, but public transportation in the USA sucks.

My fifteen minute commute to work by car takes over two hours by public transportation (bus).

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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AntcuFaalb said:

Bingowings said:

In my book a lack of a car is a positive like the lack of broadcast television in your home.

I've never wanted a car.

I've sometimes wished I was able to learn to drive so I could hire one once in a while but ownership of a car is a millstone, a money vampire and an environmental pollutant.

Yes, but public transportation in the USA sucks.

My fifteen minute commute to work by car takes over two hours by public transportation (bus).

We have bus systems in the Detroit area, but I've never used them.

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sean wookie said:

AntcuFaalb said:

Bingowings said:

In my book a lack of a car is a positive like the lack of broadcast television in your home.

I've never wanted a car.

I've sometimes wished I was able to learn to drive so I could hire one once in a while but ownership of a car is a millstone, a money vampire and an environmental pollutant.

Yes, but public transportation in the USA sucks.

My fifteen minute commute to work by car takes over two hours by public transportation (bus).

We have bus systems in the Detroit area, but I've never used them.

There's an interesting experiment for you.

Plan a journey in the Detroit area and take the bus.

Calculate the time and the price and balance it against the average price of a car (tax, parking, fuel etc).

Next time you meet a fancy pants car owning internet date you can relate the findings of your experiment to her.