
- Time
- Post link
and the official:http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/dvd.html
Supershadow's track record is no where close to official.
You_Too said:
Since I've been working a lot with the GOUT for mine and DJ's project, I can tell you at least some things for sure.
Well first, you should probably list ROTJ as PAL, because for some reason the NTSC versions of SW and ESB have the most resolution/detail intact while for ROTJ it's the PAL version which has the most, making it superior to the NTSC version.
Second, the reds are overrepresented in all three. That's why me and DJ could use the same color settings for all three and it worked. They all have the same overall color errors, except SW is more desaturated.
Third, the aliasing is there in all three. Just look closely on any half-diagonal line in scenes with a moving camera and you'll see it.
The chroma shift is unique to ESB though, and only happens at some parts of the second half.
There are other color errors here and there too though. Can't list them all since I haven't gone through all three movies completely yet, but some I know so far:
SW:
When Darth Vader appears for the first time, his belt glows red/pink instead of green.
In the scene in Luke's workshop where 3PO gets an oil bath, the lights on the wall behind him, a blinking light behind Luke while he's playing with his spaceship toy, and R2's blinking light all appears blue or purple, instead of green like they all are originally. The reflections on 3PO when he comes up from the oil bath are also purple instead of green.
When Luke uses his binoculars at night to look for R2, the stuff on the left side and the bottom appears orange instead of green.
When Luke gets hit by the practice orb in the Falcon, before Han laughs at him, that shot has a pink tone overall and everything that should be blue has been shifted to purple.
At one point in the death star where Vader appears in a corridor looking for Ben, his belt lights are red/pink again.
In ESB I know there are some desaturated or color shifted laser beams from star destroyers and ties, and some in ROTJ as well as the Falcon's laser being green instead of red at times.
This is excellent information. Thanks, You_Too!
Can you share some examples of the over-represented reds (alongside, possibly, examples of the reds reduced to levels that make more sense)?
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
negative1 said:
if there was gate weave in the original
why wouldn't it be there?
It wasn't in the original though, it's just in the GOUT masters...or they screwed something up while mastering it to DVD.
Either way, if you haven't seen the GOUT before G-Force got a hold of it, basically the picture shakes left and right by a couple of pixels the whole time. All three movies.
negative1 said:
overall, those don't seem like bugs to me...
That's why I used the quotation marks ;) As was stated in the original post: "The definition of a bug in this context is left intentionally open.", so we're including other mistakes, flaws, etc., and intentional flaws.
This signature uses Markdown syntax, which makes it easy to add formatting like italics, bold, and lists:
Asaki said:
negative1 said:
if there was gate weave in the original
why wouldn't it be there?
It wasn't in the original though, it's just in the GOUT masters...or they screwed something up while mastering it to DVD.
Either way, if you haven't seen the GOUT before G-Force got a hold of it, basically the picture shakes left and right by a couple of pixels the whole time. All three movies.
actually i did notice that, but again, thought it was part of the movie
because most of the time its not really noticeable (well at least to
me anyways!)
negative1 said:
overall, those don't seem like bugs to me...
That's why I used the quotation marks ;) As was stated in the original post: "The definition of a bug in this context is left intentionally open.", so we're including other mistakes, flaws, etc., and intentional flaws.
yeah, i know... but how is it a 'flaw' then?
i've been trying to find the original press releases
for them.. (i just bought the special edition on DVD
when it came, and was overjoyed with the set)..
i didn't know about the limited edition with the originals
until much later...(and after i got them, then i found OT.com)
===========================
http://www.prillaman.net/starwarsdvdnews.html
The Digital Bits has confirmed today that the transfers being used on the original theatrical discs will be the 1993 masters created for the "Definitive Edition" LaserDiscs. There will apparently be some digital clean-up, and the transfers will be better than the ones generated by bootleggers using the DE LaserDiscs (although it will be interesting to see how close some of the most resourceful bootleggers got to what will be on these discs).
Bill Hunt posted a lengthy rant this morning about the subject. He posited two theories as to why Lucas would choose to recycle a 13-year-old transfer. One theory is that they simply aren't going to spend the money to track down a good print and have a new anamorphic transfer made, instead choosing to use this old LaserDisc transfer to make a quick buck off the fans.
------------------------
and the official:
---------------------
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/dvd.html
In response to overwhelming demand, Lucasfilm Ltd. and Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment will release attractively priced individual two-disc releases of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Each release includes the 2004 digitally remastered version of the movie and, as bonus material, the theatrical edition of the film. That means you'll be able to enjoy Star Wars as it first appeared in 1977, Empire in 1980 and Jedi in 1983.
See the title crawl to Star Wars before it was known as Episode IV; see the pioneering, if dated, motion control model work on the attack on the Death Star; groove to Lapti Nek or the Ewok Celebration song like you did when you were a kid; and yes, see Han Solo shoot first.
This release will only be available for a limited time: from September 12th to December 31st. International release will follow on or about the same day. Each original theatrical version will feature Dolby 2.0 Surround sound, close-captioning, and subtitles in English, French and Spanish for their U.S. release. International sound and subtitling vary by territory.
"Over the years, a truly countless number of fans have told us that they would love to see and own the original version that they remember experiencing in theaters," said Jim Ward, President of LucasArts and Senior Vice President of Lucasfilm Ltd. "We returned to the Lucasfilm Archives to search exhaustively for source material that could be presented on DVD. This is something that we're very excited to be able to give to fans in response to their continuing enthusiasm for Star Wars. Topping it off with a new interactive adventure makes September 12 a red-letter day for Star Wars fans."
=========================================
nowhere in there did i see anything about anamorphic transfers
or anything else like that..
by the way, i didn't have a DVD player or buy movies, until they
were out for several years, and i didn't have a flatscreen TV
until recently either..
i only had a laserdisc player at that point. so i'm not really
sure if i even knew what that term meant even if they had
mentioned it.
later
-1
[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]
Just out of curiosity- with regard to LD captures, just how close did the "bootleggers" get to the quality of the 2006 bonus discs?
I don't know the proper terminology for this (black-level???), but PAL GOUT ANH seems to be more black...
Edit: Of course, both were cropped for this comparison. Furthermore, PAL was resized to NTSC (712x274), but I don't think that would drastically change how black the image is.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
SpilkaBilka said:
Just out of curiosity- with regard to LD captures, just how close did the "bootleggers" get to the quality of the 2006 bonus discs?
What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.
Wow, I don't know why the following AviSynth code works, but it seems to get rid of the over-represented reds in (at least, PAL) GOUT. I think it may have something to do with re-sampling. Can someone with more experience in color-correction chime in, please?
y = gout.MergeChroma(gout.BlankClip(), 1)
rgb = gout.MergeLuma(gout.BlankClip(), 1).ConvertToRGB24(matrix="Rec601").ConvertBackToYUY2(matrix="Rec601")
y.MergeChroma(rgb, 1)
It assumes that ``gout'' is in a YUV color-space; e.g., YUY2 or YV12.
(Note: I was trying to get Blackmagic Design's YRGB color-space in AviSynth when I discovered this.)
Edit: Of course, the colors will have to be Tweak()'d to get them right.
Edit 2: I may have jumped-the-gun here.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
AntcuFaalb said:
I don't know the proper terminology for this (black-level???), but PAL GOUT ANH seems to be more black...
However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r
IRE is a measure of the voltage of an analogue composite video signal. It might be relevant to the composite output from a DVD player, but not relevant to the digital data stored on a DVD.
(Well, apart from the need to avoid NTSC overheat, but that's a separate subject...)
Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here
Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here
negative1 said:
nowhere in there did i see anything about anamorphic transfers
or anything else like that..
I know news of it came out before the DVDs did, I remember a lot of angry (p)reviews at Amazon, telling George to fix it before release.
This signature uses Markdown syntax, which makes it easy to add formatting like italics, bold, and lists:
and the official:http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/dvd.html
Supershadow's track record is no where close to official.
AntcuFaalb said:
This is excellent information. Thanks, You_Too!
Can you share some examples of the over-represented reds (alongside, possibly, examples of the reds reduced to levels that make more sense)?
First of all, thanks goes to msycamore for pointing out most of the color errors! :)
About the reds: I think maybe a better explanation is that the most saturated colors are there, but when it comes to less high saturation there's mostly reds.
It's like the rest is underrepresented, except for the most saturated. And of course the fact that the GOUT has a very muted contrast range compared to the original prints.
I think this shot shows it a lot:
The rest of the colors are so underrepresented that the pinkish red is also in the skin tones.
Since it's been messed up so much I don't think there is any complete cure. When I made the settings for mine and DJ's project, I tried to balance it better, bring the reds down, bring the rest up, and get back a bit more of the contrast range:
I think for now this is the best we can do.
I've tried histogram matching and things like that, using for example the 70mm shots as reference, but the result always show the flaws of the GOUT and don't look good enough.
none said:
and the official:http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/dvd.html
Supershadow's track record is no where close to official.
right, of course.
i'm referring to the press release.
that's the first thing that came up.
is there one on a lucasfilm site, or starwars.com?
tfn.net?
later
-1
[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]
Asaki said:
negative1 said:
nowhere in there did i see anything about anamorphic transfers
or anything else like that..
I know news of it came out before the DVDs did, I remember a lot of angry (p)reviews at Amazon, telling George to fix it before release.
do you have any links?
later
-1
[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]
>
^Frank, please. Stop. Hardly any of your "corrected" shots ever look good, they are always blown out in one way or another (Han's face, here) and I get the feeling you've ignored numerous pleas that you calibrate your monitor. And, as you said, your process has no practical application as of yet.
A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em
>
Why don't we try to look at this from a different perspective? What did LFL do to the colors? Are the colors the same on the '93 DC/'95 THX? If so, were the color changes carried out in the analog or digital realm? If analog, what hardware did they use? If digital, what software did they use?
Also, what source was used to create the D1 Master Tape?
Can someone with a bit more color experience than I try to take one of -1's images and GOUT-colorify it?
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
AntcuFaalb said:
Can someone with a bit more color experience than I try to take one of -1's images and GOUT-colorify it?
There's a nice avisynth plugin called Colourlike, which can make a histogram conversion of two images or videos.
A shot from -1, with applied auto color balance and 16-235 to 0-255 conversion:
Same shot from the raw GOUT:
-1's image converted to GOUT's colors:
Using the histogram files to backward-convert the GOUT to make it look like -1's shot:
This generates the same result I got from trying Colourlike to convert the GOUT to look like the 70mm prints. It looks weird. And these histograms only works for this shot. Other shots look very strange.
Thanks for the information, You_Too! I wonder why it only works on that shot...
So the question remains: what the hell did they do?!
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
AntcuFaalb said:
So the question remains: what the hell did they do?!
Sometimes you need to remind yourself that this was a telecine master prepared for Laserdisc almost 20 years ago, perfectly fine to most consumers back in '93 and '95 but in 2012 on modern displays every limitation of that master gets magnified. It was made for Laserdisc and was intended to be seen on CRT-TV's in the 90's.
Correct me if I'm wrong but NTSC video always had problems with the color red IIRC, many NTSC films I have had over the years on LD and VHS had a quite pinkish-red or magenta look to it for some reason and tended to bleed quite often.
The Making of a THX Laser Disc
The THX Laser Disc Program began in 1993 to improve the quality and consistency of laser discs. The motivating force behind the program was the fact that on a properly calibrated Home THX Audio System a tremendous amount of variation in the quality of laser discs was noticed.
Tom Holman, along with Principal Video Engineer Dave Schnuelle, began investigating all of the many steps in the laser disc mastering and manufacturing process. They developed monitoring techniques and quality assurance principles to solve the many problems they found along the way. One technology that was developed was the THX Video Test Signal. The patented THX Video Test Signal is inserted into a video signal's vertical interval (the space leftover between each video field). This allows a computer to continuously monitor the black level, white level, chroma level, chroma noise, phase, frequency response, etc. of the video signal. This ensures that no video signal degradation occurs during duplication.
Here is a brief description of all of the steps that go into making a THX laser disc. Remember that a THX Laser Disc does not use any special surround sound format. THX Laser Discs have soundtracks recorded in Mono, Stereo, Dolby Surround, and/or Dolby Digital.
The first step is to calibrate the video monitor and the audio playback system. THX engineers use a Photo Research Spectra-Radiometer to carefully calibrate the black level, white level, greyscale, and color balance of the video monitor being used in the transfer. The Spectra-Radiometer measures the wavelengths of the light coming from the video screen and can display the actual spectrum on a computer. This gives the engineer valuable information on color and greyscale as well as on the actual purity of the phosphors being used in the monitor. The purpose of this calibration is to ensure that decisions made by the filmmaker on the color of the transfer are done under correct and repeatable conditions. The Photo Research device is calibrated regularly to National Bureau of Standards specifications.
The second step is to calibrate the dubbing machines. The frequency response, phase, azimuth, and level of each channel (2 channels for Dolby Stereo transfers, 6 channels for Dolby Digital) are checked to ensure accurate playback of the soundtrack master tape.
Once the system is calibrated, THX engineers monitor the transfer and answer any technical questions that arise. The transfer of picture and sound are done at the same time to ensure correct synchronization. All decisions about content, colorimetry, etc. are made by the film company, and many times the director, producer, or cinematographer is present. THX engineers are present in an advisory capacity only. Much of the look of a movie transfer is the responsibility of the telecine artist and the studio advisor.
Upon completion of the transfer (usually to a D-1 digital video tape), THX Laser Disc engineers step in to begin supervising the duplication process. The D-1 master tape is digitally transferred to a digital D-2 video tape. At this stage, the patented THX Laser Disc test signal is inserted into the video vertical interval.
On a parallel path to the video transfer, the 2 channel analog print master is transferred to digital audio. If the laser disc contains a Dolby Digital soundtrack, Dolby engineers work along with THX engineers to transfer the 6 track print master and convert it into the 5.1 channel Dolby Digital serial bitstream. One more Digital D-2 video copy is made and it is at this stage the soundtrack is married to the video print. The FM analog tracks are copied, the digital 2 track Dolby Stereo soundtrack is copied, and (if used) the Dolby Digital bitstream is transferred as well.
It is from this final digital D-2 master tape that the laser disc master is made. Since a laser disc contains an analog video signal, the digital video of the D-2 master tape must be converted to analog at this point. Once the laser disc master is made, THX engineers inspect a sample from each stamper to ensure that the quality of the original transfer is maintained. A test disc must go through a computerized test process using the patented THX Video Test Signal. It must also go through a review by a THX Laser Disc QC technician. To ensure the highest quality possible, every transfer and sample disc is looked at and listened to. THX Laser Disc QC technicians have the power to reject entire pressings of laser discs, and they have used that power on occasion.
The goal of the THX Laser Disc Program is to ensure that the look and sound of a movie is preserved through the complicated picture and sound transfer processes. You may notice some picture and sound differences between THX Laser Disc titles, but those differences were decided upon by the movie makers themselves.
The technologies developed by the THX Laser Disc Program become increasingly important when you look at the future of home video. THX engineers are currently working with many digital video formats, including DVD, to ensure that the filmmaker's intentions are preserved for the future.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
I do consider the non-anamorphic format to be a bug. Why? Because industry standard at the time was to release widescreen movies anamorphically. It shouldn't have been necessary to state that it was anamorphic; a reasonable presumption is that it would be. It's also the first thing that fan edits correct when using GOUT as a base - something LFL should have done from the start. So it is obviously for all practical purposes a bug that should have, and could at zero cost have been, fixed.
If a DVD of Wizard of Oz came out and it turned out to be black and white, would it not be a mistake because the label didn't say "in color"? No, certain things are just presumed. If it skips, would it not be a mistake because the disk didn't say "won't skip"?
Perhaps if the disc included the label - "disclaimer: outdated crappy non-anamorphic f-ed up transfer", then there wouldn't be any bugs!
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
AntcuFaalb said:
Thanks for the information, You_Too! I wonder why it only works on that shot...
You're welcome! :)
When generating histogram files with Colourlike, you can choose if you want it to analyze one frame, or more and make an average setting for a whole clip.
This shot might not represent the full luma and chroma of all shots, so when using the same conversion in other scenes with the histogram files from this shot, weird things happen like whites being red, shadows being purple etc.
AntcuFaalb said:
So the question remains: what the hell did they do?!
I know only one guy who could possibly have the true answer to that question. His initials are MV...
I think he said once that he had seen the master tapes and that they didn't have the fake-looking grain for example.
msycamore said:
All decisions about content, colorimetry, etc. are made by the film company, and many times the director, producer, or cinematographer is present. THX engineers are present in an advisory capacity only. Much of the look of a movie transfer is the responsibility of the telecine artist and the studio advisor.
So either George was there or they were all sleeping. :)
EDIT: Sorry for double post! haha
Awesome post, msycamore!
I know that GOUT's master was prepared for '90s CRTs.
My problem with GOUT is that my primary TV is a 36" GE CRT TV (148lb.!) and GOUT still looks terrible on it while playing.
The first step is to calibrate the video monitor and the audio playback system. THX engineers use a Photo Research Spectra-Radiometer to carefully calibrate the black level, white level, greyscale, and color balance of the video monitor being used in the transfer. The Spectra-Radiometer measures the wavelengths of the light coming from the video screen and can display the actual spectrum on a computer. This gives the engineer valuable information on color and greyscale as well as on the actual purity of the phosphors being used in the monitor. The purpose of this calibration is to ensure that decisions made by the filmmaker on the color of the transfer are done under correct and repeatable conditions. The Photo Research device is calibrated regularly to National Bureau of Standards specifications.
It must have been broken that day :-D
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3