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Collaborative Fanediting: An ROTJ Proposition (BACK ON TRACK WITH EMANSWFAN AT THE HELM--SEE POST 1488 OR OP FOR A LINK!) — Page 8

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I think it would be much more emotionally powerful to move Anakin's ghost to the pyre scene. 

And it gives Luke and Anakin a much more personal one-on-one father/son experience. I could imagine this being very powerful.  

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I agree Anakin+Pyre is better than the original, but I am sticking to my guns about not seeing him at all... Please don't tamper with any of the dialogue during Vaders death to make it make more sense because it never made much sense in the Original and is heralded as one of the top 10 best death scenes in cinema so I suggest leave the dialogue alone. Anyway. I checked out wookiepedia about force ghosts and Vaders Ghost is apparently unique in that he did not make himself a ghost Obi-wan and Yoda did so he could complete his training, which is the official explaination anyway. So it's Dead Sith to become Dead Jedi with a little help from others.

So trying to keep track of the new compositing shots not including background mattes or wishlist fixes some are still suggestions and not confirmed yet happening some story some action some transition .... As you say darth_ender we don't want to dump too much on Angel and Alanfae. And neither do I myself as I will have to help storyboard alot of these now also.

Compositing Suggestions so far Chronologically...

1.New opening (considering using a Tantive IV cloaked at the begining now to cut down on workload but still self destruct sequence droid in escape pod only R5-D4 we don't see any bothans re-entry Endor no splash down Main Reason Vader introduced later on after Dagobah)

2.The Exchange (short sequence Bounty Hunter gives plans in deep space via dumping R5-D4 droid out of cargo hold Main Reason Padding Between Luke Leaving Dagobah . Tattooine)

3.Lukes Transition from Dagobah = from space to Tattooine / beggars canyon matte on existing x-wing footage Main Reason Show Luke Arriving and allow for deleted scene putting lightsabre in R2 also

4.Bobba Fett & Sarlac (Removing shot of Han / Removing Beak from Sarlac in some shots Bobba fett & Luke composites when hand shot etc + Removing far away Bantha Herd fix lukes kick)

5.Doors of Shield Generator need to open when Han says "Got it!" Bunker Battle fixes before it's destruction???

6.Chewie Footage ANH DS1corridor composite Running from shield generator.

7.Capital Ships attacking Executor / Star destroyers

8.Expanded Space battle shots.....? more ships / attacking executor / being destroyed

9.Destruction of Millenium Falcon / fireball burning out / exploding

If I missed anything please add to list I will start storyboarding / mocking up number 1 at some point in the coming days and try to do this chronologically. If any other persons would like to storyboard any sequence as I am not the best artist and may have an idea what you would do yourself but will make crude mock ups now I think we need no further additions to this list at present even if they end up scrapped ideas they may inspie new thoughts or be ditched anyway I suggest capping it off here on this list and explore these possibilities then move forward from there.

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That's fine, stick to your guns.  I feel pretty strongly about it as well.  I certainly would change no dialogue.  It would in fact be very simple in my mind:  Luke sets a blaze to the pyre, Vader's armor begins burning, close up of Luke's face, back to pyre which then pans left, we see Anakin's ghost appear and smile, back to Luke's close up where he looks emotional, then distant shot of Luke from behind with fire burning and Anakin simply standing there.  Then the camera pans up to the fireworks.  No dialogue, just emotion to communicate several possible feelings.  I personally don't see the PT's explanation of Force ghosts as disrupting to Anakin appearing.  I don't see a need to try to make it make any additional sense.  The official explanation works for those who care, but in this case I'm mostly interested in a story-telling device, not the endless efforts to keep continuity perfect on the part of the Star Wars EU.

I had an additional shot to go with this, but it would probably be even harder: it'd be interesting to move this pyre scene to Tatooine, Anakin's and Luke's home planet, with a double sunset in the background.  This may seem easier if we place the action in a valley of sorts so that when the camera pans up, that's when we see the sunset.  Most of the scene is pretty dark, so if we darken it further to hide any foliage, we only would have to change the pan up.  And even the lighting on this planet at the sunset could be darkened.  It seems interesting to me to show one of the suns nearly set and the other approaching.  Combined with the shot in the valley, it retains the twilight feel of the original shot and signals an ending of the story.

 

I want everyone interested in this project to really speak up on these thoughts, the Anakin ghost in particular.  I should have the script uploaded today I think, so you can respond after reading it, but apparently this issue is keeping folks divided, and I really like it so much.  Please speak up so I know if we should really keep it or not.

 

Rereading what you wrote, do you mean the dialogue when Vader dies aboard the Death Star?  I don't have any plans for that either, so you should be relieved.  

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darth_ender said:

I just had a thought, but I definitely need Angel's opinion on it:

What if we didn't show Anakin as part of the Force ghost trio?  What if we just see Obi-Wan and Yoda, and Luke smiles.  Then we show the funeral pyer afterwards, and while Vader's armor burns, we see his Force ghost appear alone.  That does several things emotionally speaking: 1) Anakin is alone, thus we see he is redeemed, but it may not appear that he automatically is granted Nirvana after his many past deeds; 2) It appears that in a sense, with the burning of Vader's armor, Vader is truly killed and Anakin is released; 3) It appears sort of like a final sad goodbye and making peace between father and son.

I really am excited about this idea, but I wonder if it's possible to pull it off.  And maybe I'm the only one who'd like it anyway.  Thoughts?  Can it be done?

Well the shot has Luke in front of the Pyre.

I guess you can remove luke and add some new fire elements (the shot sucks from variation and artistic point of view).

Also The ghosts managed to be behind that ledge. I guess we(you) can fade anakin without showing his ghost legs.(if you manage to extract the ghosts from the finale ofc)

In one mockup i did i extended the flames so i guess its possible.

I wouldnt mind the editing of the film finishes and when we have th final count of the shots we need i would start making mattes or whatever :)


-Angel

 

–>Artwork<–**

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That's good to hear.  Do you think the ghost would be better to show immediately behind the pyre or off to the side?  I imagine it could be shown in a close up/fade-in (like the '04 version and later, only with Shaw's head).  When we see the distant shot just before panning up, it seems that we could fairly easily use Obi-Wan's body to make the shot complete without looking fake from the distance.  But again, you're doing the effects, so I don't really know how easy that is.

Let me add that I'm so glad we have you on our team.  You are an invaluable asset.  Thanks for sharing your talent.

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I feel I need to go with the PT explanation for Force ghosts. In the OT, Vader being a ghost is practically a continuity error. Many people thought that when Jedi die, they just become a ghost. This can't be correct though, because Obi-Wan says that he will become more powerful than Vader can possibly imagine. So Vader being a ghost is a little bit of a head scratcher. I firmly believe Vader should not be a ghost for all the reasons I already stated, and for the reason that it is kind of an unexplained moment. Aalenfae said that when he's editing ROTS, he tries to get rid of anything that isn't explained in the movie. So I would do the same here.

But mostly I think that the Star Wars series is too serious to simply cast the over-happy ending off as part of the fantasy. My biggest beef with ROTJ (and I'm not alone here) is that the movie is way too happy. Vader is EVIL for almost 4 movies. Consequence is necessary. That's why they killed him. Also, it gives the final conversation between Luke and Vader MUCH MORE meaning. I mean honestly, think of that conversation and then think about how Luke and Vader can talk again whenever they want. 

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I see your point, especially about the finality of it all.  I am still not certain I agree because the point is that this is Vader's redemption (although I don't see such redemption as realistic in any existing supernatural view, considering his many evil acts, as you pointed out).  It does seem to be kind of a silly deathbed repentance.  But as Vladius said, I also want a happy ending.  I guess your last comment actually has me thinking about it more thoroughly, especially the part about their final conversation being the final moment.  Great point.  I guess we really need to discuss this relatively minor detail.  Anyone else have any thoughts?

I should add that, apart from this very detail, the script is now completely done.  But I do want to add pictures from the wishlist of suggested changes as well.  I have to take care of the kids at this moment, but I will definitely get this up at some point today.

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I also don't like the idea of deathbed repentance, but I suppose I should say that in my version of events Vader isn't a child murderer, at the very least. Just as Mr. Plinkett preferred, most of the actions he performs are as an enforcer, on the orders of someone else - Tarkin, the Emperor, whoever. This doesn't excuse his actions, but it makes the idea of redemption more palatable. It should be kept in mind how things felt before the prequels altered it.

A potential compromise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0EqJjUPbLs&list=FLvRjv9hKkiQDztlyqbymhHg&index=68&feature=plpp_video

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darth_ender said:

Do you think the ghost would be better to show immediately behind the pyre or off to the side?  I imagine it could be shown in a close up/fade-in (like the '04 version and later, only with Shaw's head).  When we see the distant shot just before panning up, it seems that we could fairly easily use Obi-Wan's body to make the shot complete without looking fake from the distance.  But again, you're doing the effects, so I don't really know how easy that is.

Let me add that I'm so glad we have you on our team.  You are an invaluable asset.  Thanks for sharing your talent.

The footage either hayden or shaw ist very helpful for what you want to achieve(redemption - loneliness) because the both smile.

Im not fan of this idea but what the hell :)

-Angel

–>Artwork<–**

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DominicCobb said:

I feel I need to go with the PT explanation for Force ghosts. In the OT, Vader being a ghost is practically a continuity error. Many people thought that when Jedi die, they just become a ghost. This can't be correct though, because Obi-Wan says that he will become more powerful than Vader can possibly imagine. So Vader being a ghost is a little bit of a head scratcher. I firmly believe Vader should not be a ghost for all the reasons I already stated, and for the reason that it is kind of an unexplained moment. Aalenfae said that when he's editing ROTS, he tries to get rid of anything that isn't explained in the movie. So I would do the same here.

But mostly I think that the Star Wars series is too serious to simply cast the over-happy ending off as part of the fantasy. My biggest beef with ROTJ (and I'm not alone here) is that the movie is way too happy. Vader is EVIL for almost 4 movies. Consequence is necessary. That's why they killed him. Also, it gives the final conversation between Luke and Vader MUCH MORE meaning. I mean honestly, think of that conversation and then think about how Luke and Vader can talk again whenever they want. 

Well said that is what I was trying to get at about not editing the death scene as he can also talk to leia about things too, so why beg luke to tell his sister....if he can tell her himself.

@vladius that vid is taking things a little bit too far lol

Anyway the first storyboard for the opening I completed today... I did my best with what I have to work with as I said I am not the best artist... But I hope you get the Idea and if Angel or Alanfae think they can improve upon this with their expertise then that would be great. Link Below

http://www.mediafire.com/?nczs921vtp0ouh8

it's awfully basic and thats a good place to start I feel as I don't have drawing talent to do what they can do but they should understand the camera shots as I am sure they know the movies well. It is all constructed from existing footage so if they feel they could add other elements or improve upon this I am sure they can as opposed to my crap artwork.

I thought of adding an Audio dub just before the Tantive explodes of "the Force be with us..." If we could have an abandoned bridge shot with a countdown timer would be even even better. but if impossible or people feel this won't work then may have to think of somthing else to complement the existing structure. Suggestions Welcome

Dagobah should come after this Vader Opening will come after Dagobah.

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I wouldnt mind the editing of the film finishes and when we have th final count of the shots we need i would start making mattes or whatever :)


-Angel

 

I Would offer to do the edit as per everyones final decisions but my PC is not powerful enough.... Sorry! So we need to Find sombody wiling to do this.

my specs:

AMD 4200+

1GB Ram Corsair Twin x ddr3200

Nvidia 7900GT

Windows XPSP2

DVD or Blu-Ray? Deleted scenes might look better at DVD quality? mixture of GOUT & SE Or Despecialized? Need some help here on what are the best sources....

@fishmanlee ignorance is bliss

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Well, I thought it might be fun, but you are all probably right.  I have completed the script and am currently leaving the idea in the comments, but I think you are all correct that maybe we should simply not include Anakin's ghost at all.  Still we should debate the point, but I myself am now leaning that way.  Thanks for the mockup Angel, even though you don't even like the idea.

So here is what you've all been waiting for.

http://www.4shared.com/office/-gr9agSq/ROTJ_script_edited_full.html

Sorry it took so long; it's more time consuming than you may think.  I've made sure every suggestion could work from an editing point of view, and except for heavy CG additions in the space battle, most of it would be fairly easy to pull off from an editing standpoint (I think, given that I can't do any of these neat tricks).  I did not include any new scenes other than reincorporated deleted footage, and personally I see no need for them.  Check out the ending in particular, as it really increases the tension drastically, given Jerjerrod's orders to destroy Endor and all that.  I will probably redo my rough edit to include more of the space stuff.

I also included several pictures of effects I would love to see included in this edit, all taken from the official wishlist.  I would of course love several of the small changes, even down to the nitty-gritty movie errors that all films make and that the likes of Adywan take the utmost care to correct, but I only included the pictures of the big changes I'd like to see visually.  This edit could completely work without them, but I think they would enhance the visuals of the film greatly.

Now what I think we should do is have everyone who's interested in contributing ideas make suggestions for alterations or additions.  The more I think about it, the less interested I am in filming whole new scenes or subplots (I know Ronster will hate me for this :)  But it's up to you guys.

Most importantly, I really want some serious comments from Angel and Aalenfae.  I know I call you guys out a lot, but really this project hinges largely on your efforts.  How much of what I've written is possible?  How much of it do you like and are willing to pull off?  Is there anything you'd like to add that I did not include?  Are there suggestions for more traditional special effects that we could go for as an alternative: for instance, should someone build a Death Star set or use an X-wing model or something like that?

Thanks for all the help and suggestions thus far, and I hope you guys like what you read.  I really think these changes can enhance the movie greatly.

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I've reviewed most of the script and I like it.

-I think that if the funeral pyre could be moved to Tatooine that would be perfect.

-I personally like the celebrations.

-I think Lando's death would add some gravity. 

-I wonder if Leia's first scene with Wicket could be removed entirely. Just thinking here, I just wonder what people think about that.

-You noted that the "general" line is a little weird, I feel like it can just be cut out.

Other than that it looks like you've got everything. Great work!

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Now what I think we should do is have everyone who's interested in contributing ideas make suggestions for alterations or additions.  The more I think about it, the less interested I am in filming whole new scenes or subplots (I know Ronster will hate me for this :)  But it's up to you guys.

 

I hate you! lol don't be silly mate, I don't want to suggest anything just for the sake of it... I think you will either need to pad out the begining if you keep the structure the way it is Dagobah > VaderDSII > Tattooine or revert to the original structure of ROTJ.... Just my thoughts on this ....

Ok read the script it is largely agreeable to me on the whole as I pointed out already to you previously there is too much flitting around which IMO hampered the original in many ways in terms of pace so not only is it hard to read the last act but also hard to know if your pruposed structure will work so do a rough cut of it IMO. My main concern is the Pacing and this is what needs to be addressed above anything else. For example getting the Emporers death out of the way helps move on to what is going on elsewhere instead of staggering everything out with constant breaks to somthing else before finishing any one particular sequence. It's like being at a checkout counter and the person that serves you go's to do somthing else before finishing the transaction. I can see why they cut the Jerjerrod scenes as it is yet another cut away to somthing else going on in another place. Please I would like to see a rough cut of the last act, you might even change your mind once you do it.....

Can you remove C3PO Lines "I have decided that we will stay here" outside the bunker it's annoying.

Can you remove Luke to Vader "I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate" it feels too forced and does not add anything to this scene.

I would like to see Luke not tell Leia that she is her brother so I would like that removed and leave Leia in the dark about this fact but thats my take....

I like what you did with Vader contacted Luke whilst Tied up on Endor would perhaps go better there. than on tattooine.

Hard for me to know about the deleted scenes as do not have the blu-ray yet. But would add more tension trying to blow up endor but that would also be a bit suicidal too.

Lando should probably burn out after the destruction of DSII but would need to be made spectacular.

Use more Endor celebration footage from the original as opposed to showing celebrations around the galaxy IMO.

Can we cut Han's Jelousy immediatly after the DSII get's destroyed?

Keep the pyre on Endor... is unneccesary to have on tattooine but it might work?.

I will give it another read later on. But Good Work Darth Ender

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Can you remove C3PO Lines "I have decided that we will stay here" outside the bunker it's annoying.

Can you remove Luke to Vader "I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate" it feels too forced and does not add anything to this scene.

Can we cut Han's Jelousy immediatly after the DSII get's destroyed?

 

I love all three of these parts and I would hate to see them go. Maybe I'm a rube, but the first one makes me laugh out loud every time, the second one reminds me of the dynamics at play in the following scenes, and the third one makes me feel all fuzzy when Leia smooches him.

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Just had an idea: what if we had General Madine die on one of the Mon Cal ships that gets destroyed?

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^Sounds like some sort of devious plot to plant ideas in my head, like some sort of inception.  Actually, I like it, and there is a point where I'd like to insert Madine footage.  Including him may be one of the hardest things, wherever we try to put him because he has so few lines and his face is so non-expressive in the released deleted scenes.  While I'm happy with all the new material, I wish they had released more.  I'm sure some or all of it has decayed, but I really wish we had more to work with.

Also, glad you like the funeral on Tatooine idea.  I don't know how doable it is, but I think it'd be very fitting.  However, if we can't do it, I don't think it's the end of the world either.  I just think it makes for a more fit ending.

We can keep the celebrations.  I certainly don't 'hate' them.  I just think they feel a bit out of place with their modern special effects.  But perhaps with our nice version, it'll all blend together better anyway.  It makes sense and is fitting in any case to show the celebrations, and now we know for certain that the Empire has fallen.

Still on the fence about Lando, pondering the interest in having him actually die.  When I was younger I never thought much about his character.  Now that I'm older, I really like him.  He may have made a bad choice in ESB, but he's a very loyal friend.  It'd be nice to create the scene and see how it all plays out.  I don't imagine it'd be that hard to blow up the Falcon.  We'd have to probably include some voiceovers, probably having Wedge overhear him screaming in his cockpit or something.  But the most important thing to include would be having Han whisper, "Lando," while looking at the Death Star explosion.  I'm not sure there's a good point to include that.  But I know I'm interested in the idea, and maybe someone can demonstrate it.

First scene with Leia and Wicket could probably be easily removed, and it would probably add more suspense and mystery to the Ewoks at first.  I never understood why people wanted to remove that scene  (or at least shorten it, like Spence did), but now that thought occurs to me.  Is that why?

I don't really care about the title 'general'.  I just think it's funny that they did that.  I don't think it'd be worthwhile trying to remove it.

Ronster, glad you don't hate me :)  I see what you mean about pacing; a scene like that would set the pace for a faster movie.  However, no matter what, this movie is slower than ANH in many ways until the final battle.  This order allows for a slow start, gradually increasing in pace, until we hit a adrenaline-packed finale (we hope).  I don't think the order is necessarily bad.  Don't forget, ESB is pretty slow, and even in the beginning with the wampa and Luke trapped in the storm, it's still not a fast paced beginning.  That said, I think we're all still considering the stealing of the plans.  My problem with your plan is that no matter what, it will be pretty obvious that we've reused much of the ANH footage.  It'd have to be completely redone, I think, to make it believable.  Not saying that's impossible, since I'm asking Aalenfae to do much of the same in the final battle, but I'm saying it's a lot of work without necessarily the full payoff.

I kind of agree with Vladius that I like these parts you want removed.

Yes, the Death Star blowing up Endor would be suicidal in reality.  That is part of the reason why in the beginning I suggested moving the DSII's orbit further from the moon (though there are others as well).  Also, if you think about it, destroying the DSII would destroy Endor with all the fallout, but it's a movie, and I figure it's one of those details to be overlooked.

Yeah, it's not necessary to include the pyre on Tatooine.  It's basically just a thought that could include more emotion, especially considering that the music and lighting of that scene were already supposed to be reminiscent of Luke's sunset scene in ANH.  But it may not be worth the effort, and I'm not tied to the idea.

While I am the one who put the script together, I'm trying to be quite open to others' suggestions, since this is a collaborative effort.  But I also do feel passionate about some of the ideas I include.  I do see your point about the "flitting around," but I feel it worked fine in the original cut.  Again, I feel that these are various climactic points, and separating them destroys the pacing.  And as for Jerjerrod, it may make it too hectic, but I don't think so yet.  Before actually working on the script, I was trying to make a more complete Endor scene that included the Jerjerrod stuff, so I will try to finish that and see how it works.  I'll upload it ASAP.

Hopefully I've addressed everyone's thoughts, even if I didn't specify what you said.  What I'm thinking we'll have to do is collect a bunch of the debated ideas in a list and put them up for a vote, with the SFX guys holding some sort of veto powers over aspects of it since they have to be willing to do it.  I'm not trying to dictate the exact direction of the story, though I certainly hope to have a big say.  I'm really trying to remain open to everyone else's thoughts, and ultimately a vote (i.e. should we kill Lando, yes or no?) will settle some of these issues.  Everyone who has displayed any interest in working on this project will be included in the vote, and I will probably send PMs to everyone.  So after we get some more feedback on the script, I hope someone would be willing to gather all the unsettled debated ideas.

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Re: The Ending Celebrations

In terms of integrating the two trilogies, the closing celebrations on Naboo and Corouscant are crucial. Tatooine and Bespin are nice, too. In general, it depends on whether or not you want this to be the closing act of the story of Luke or the story of Anakin (and Luke). If you're going for OT-only, then cutting them is fine. If you're going for 6-Film-Saga, you gotta include them.

Also, the music John Williams wrote for their 97 addition is actually really nice, and much better than YubYub.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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darth_ender said:

^Sounds like some sort of devious plot to plant ideas in my head, like some sort of inception. 

Yeah, I tend to do that.

Anyways, I was thinking about the first time that a rebel ship is destroyed, and it doesn't really have as much weight as it should. That's why I thought we could make that Madine's ship, which would make it's destruction more surprising/shocking because the audience would think "oh my god, he was just explaining the plan, and now he's dead!" Also it would explain his absence from the battle. 

And yeah, the reason I considered removing the Leia and Wicket scene is to make the Ewoks more mysterious.

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Well, I already liked the idea, and I like it even more now that you've explained where you'd put it.  I'm going to work on another final video with some new footage.  Could you sort of work on the parts of the script where you might include Madine, includeing what lines you might add.  I'm thinking perhaps the shot where we get a close up of his face, we may be able to dub one of his bridge officer's shouting something like, "General, we're detecting a large energy buildup from the Death Star," or something like that.  His stoic face might fit well with a dramatic moment, and we wouldn't have to actually see who's talking.  But we'd still need to include him in one or two previous shots to establish that he's there.  Perhaps we could even keep his involvement in the lead up to the jump to hyperspace: while Ackbar is making his fleet orders, Madine could be giving some orders and comments of his own, potentially just to his own crew.

For those who don't like how this doesn't mesh with EU (Madine lives to fight another day) I personally feel that a fanedit should not be restricted by EU.  Inevitably the changes we make will conflict with something in the original storyline, and thus with the stories that follow and relied on the original movies.  This is especially true of PT edits.  I think we simply should disregard EU when making fanedits in most cases, at least when it's convenient.

FYI, I'm updating the first post a bit to include handy references for our editing.  In the future if you want to find something like the wishlist, movie mistakes, or ships size references, go to the first post.

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Tim, I see your point regarding the various celebrations, and probably would ultimately choose to keepthem for that reason.  While I prefer the OT, I don't wish to discount the PT, and therefore I agree that it probably would be best to keep the various celebrations in.

As for the music, I completely agree.  I much prefer the '97 song, and I don't know why people complain so much about it.  I know it doesn't match up with the one Ewok beating the stormtrooper helmets, but in this case it's clearly background music, not the music played by the Ewoks.  I'm happy keeping it.

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I just had another thought: what if just a few seconds of the Falcon's entry to the Death Star were moved to it's exit, particularly the front shots?  It's always been kind of weird that it took so long to get the reactor and they get out so quickly.  A few seconds trimmed on one way and added on the other might better create the appropriate illusion.