
- Time
- Post link
timdiggerm said:
It's hard to deny that the battle between capital ships at the beginning of ROTS is superb,
Oh, people will deny it. Somehow they will.
It's hard to deny that the battle between capital ships at the beginning of ROTS is superb, if superfluous to the plot. I'm not quite sure how one would go about making the ROTJ battle a bit more like this (ie time consuming & expensive to do it right), but that's really the direction I'd like to see the ROTJ battle go.
timdiggerm said:
It's hard to deny that the battle between capital ships at the beginning of ROTS is superb,
Oh, people will deny it. Somehow they will.
TheBoost said:
timdiggerm said:
It's hard to deny that the battle between capital ships at the beginning of ROTS is superb,
Oh, people will deny it. Somehow they will.
I'll do that. To me, it just looks like a video game intro. And I can't even play it, so it annoys me to watch. I love the ideas there: finally seeing big capital ships bombing the fool out of each other high-seas style, but the CG takes me right out. If it was done with actual models that look realistic... blahblahblah you've all heard it before. The Ideas are great, the execution is weak.
I do agree though that Jedi needs some big ship action as seen in Sith, I just don't want it to feel like the intro to a new SW video game.
ray_afraid said:
TheBoost said:
timdiggerm said:
It's hard to deny that the battle between capital ships at the beginning of ROTS is superb,
Oh, people will deny it. Somehow they will.
I'll do that. To me, it just looks like a video game intro. And I can't even play it, so it annoys me to watch. I love the ideas there: finally seeing big capital ships bombing the fool out of each other high-seas style, but the CG takes me right out. If it was done with actual models that look realistic... blahblahblah you've all heard it before. The Ideas are great, the execution is weak.
I do agree though that Jedi needs some big ship action as seen in Sith, I just don't want it to feel like the intro to a new SW video game.
THIS.
<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>
The problem with the battle in ROTJ is mostly the same problem of the entire movie, it seems to be done without enthusiasm.
ROTJ should be ESB-ROTS (in terms of pesimism and masiveness based on the historical importance of the facts that are being shown) till the very end when everything is solves well. Exactly the same for the battle, it should look like a giant battle where the rebels are being wiped out.
Instead of that we've got an optimistic movie (humor in Jabba's Palace, love without tragedy (unlike ROTS), sillyness with the ewoks a general lack of masiveness (Jabba's Palace is way too quotidian to be in the same movie that tells how the Empire fell... compare the order 66 scene, or the "I am your father scene" with basically all the bullshit that happens in Jabba's), and a non massive battle with always the optimism that the hero-ship (the falcon) provides in all its fancy shots. So yes, the star destroyers (which are supposed to be how many, fifty? maybe a hundreed?) barely get into the battle, so a little less dog fight and more capital ships might be good.
How you do it is something that doesn't really bother me. I'm not against CGI, computers are a wonderful tool for those who know how to use it. Look what Bob Garcia and Angel are doing with ROTS without building any model, and yet it sells OT aesthetics very very well. So if you are against all the fancy flybys and the flying camera that basically makes all the battle of Coruscant confusing that's a different thing that being completely against CGI models, which can give you certain advantages, like a balanced, good and believable illumination of the models matte lines, or even colour stuff (look at the Executor reveal in ESB, how the TIEs that fly all around look horrible due to illumination issues)
Ady I'd be the first one to thank you for the respect which you've shown towards ANH and ESB, that having been said.....I hope you kick ROTJ's ass
TIL that we can address our thanks to Ady without even seeing his presence.
Ray, I definitely saw those criticisms coming, and I agree with them, to a certain extent. I think there's something to be said for the level of detail and complexity that CG allows, but perhaps sometimes it goes too far. It may just be a problem with what we're used to - We're so used to only certain kinds of shots being possible that anything too far beyond that seems terrible, in which case the children of the future (what a phrase!) will have no problem with it. I, however, suspect this is not the case.
I don't know if you're UK or USA or what, but here in Amurica, they introduced a camera rig to football (you know what kind I mean) that swings over the field on ropes, swooping, capturing some really great views of plays. At first, it was slightly disconcerting, because I had never seen such a thing before, but I quickly got used to it and now love when they use it, even though it does come close to mimicking the camera moves in video games. I suspect that there are two reasons
Perhaps the problem with the ROTS sequence isn't that the CG isn't realistic enough or that we're un-used to it, but that the camera isn't (which yes, is part of the CG process, but bear with me). I'm reminded of some part of a behind-the-scenes thing for Wall-E that I saw, where the good folks at Pixar talked about all the work they put into the camera system for that film, simulating different lenses, cameras, shutters, etc. If they didn't (I don't remember), I'd also lump in camera-movement into that. Even in films where the camera is apparently traveling through the vacuum of space, there should be some realism to its movements, some limits on what it can do.
On the other hand, I had no problem with rushing forward and plunging over the edge of the abyss with Gandalf and the Balrog and thought it was fantastic, which perhaps goes to show that even impossible shots have their place - in moderation. The ROTS battle just goes on and on and on.
Thus, I suggest that the ROTS battle needs less dynamic shots and maybe even some model-shot-replacements, while the ROTJ battle would benefit from more shots of gunners, a heck of a lot more capital-ship action, even some shots in the style of the ROTS battle... but not too many.
WhatsMyName said:
Back to topic, i was wondering. in the Battle of Endor, should ships be on fire? Explosions? More of them anyways.
I know ships have sheilds. but you think after awhile of fighting you think you'd see ships on fire, ships blowing up or parts of the ships blowing up. It just seems like it would make more sense.
I think more explosions might be good. But to have ships be continuosly on fire would be a little TOO unrealistic lol.
mfastx said:
WhatsMyName said:
Back to topic, i was wondering. in the Battle of Endor, should ships be on fire? Explosions? More of them anyways.
I know ships have sheilds. but you think after awhile of fighting you think you'd see ships on fire, ships blowing up or parts of the ships blowing up. It just seems like it would make more sense.
I think more explosions might be good. But to have ships be continuosly on fire would be a little TOO unrealistic lol.
Star Wars has always had explosions and sound in space (it is Space Fantasy not Science Fiction) but even in evoking the dreaded science bit here, these are ships filled with breathable air, surrounded by force fields and venting breathable air, couple that with the possibility that the ships may be built with elements that don't need atmospheric Oxygen to burn (like some metals) what is TOO unrealistic about them being on fire?
If it works with the story and can be done well it should be done.
timdiggerm said:
Perhaps the problem with the ROTS sequence isn't that the CG isn't realistic enough...
On the other hand, I had no problem with rushing forward and plunging over the edge of the abyss with Gandalf and the Balrog and thought it was fantastic, which perhaps goes to show that even impossible shots have their place - in moderation. The ROTS battle just goes on and on and on.
Yep, that's it. And in any case I don't think CG lives up to the realism of models. Nor is a shot made on a computer as impressive as a shot with real models, cameras, lights, ect.
And as for the moment mentioned from LotR, it works because of the emotion invested in the characters and that the film has had time to build to this moment. Also the GC CG looks great. Starting a film off with weak CG in a total CG sequence mixed with a total lack of emotional investment in the characters or scene leaves me with nothing to feel but "Hey, this looks fun. Wish they'd hand the xbox controller to me!"
ray_afraid said:
Also the GC looks great.
Indeed, the Generated Computer did look great
;)
<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>
Random thought I had a while ago.
What if the exposition in ROTJ could reveal that luke has been missing since the end of ESB. So he recuperates with the fleet and then just disappears?
The material would be a bit thin on the ground, but perhaps his reveal could be within the sarlaac scene, so Han is about to be fed by himself? Luke could be on the barge and is revealed then.
I agree with Mithrandir about the current state of ROTJ. Jabba's palace feels like a huge intermission really. It made sense for a trilogy finale, but not for a saga finale.
I would suggest making Jabba's palace have more of a hook in the prequels, then it may just have some relevance to tying up some loose plot strings. Dealing with some long unfinished business.
Bingowings said:
Star Wars has always had explosions and sound in space (it is Space Fantasy not Science Fiction) but even in evoking the dreaded science bit here, these are ships filled with breathable air, surrounded by force fields and venting breathable air, couple that with the possibility that the ships may be built with elements that don't need atmospheric Oxygen to burn (like some metals) what is TOO unrealistic about them being on fire?
If it works with the story and can be done well it should be done.
Well I know that theoretically you could have explosions because of the oxygen in the ships, but most of the explosions are quick, as there isn't enough oxygen to support a long, sustained explosion.
I think there is a difference in that and having a ship be continously on fire. Maybe if it was a small fire within the shield, but a large fire continuously engulfing a whole ship would look a little out of place IMO.
Unless oxygen is restricted to the officer's decks, I would imagine those star destroyers have quite a bit to keep a fire going. But you would also expect them to seal off damaged areas. So yeah, I don't see them being engulfed either.
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." – John Lennon
there are some old mcquarrie paintings of ships on fire in ROTJ. I think it would look awesome.
As I said before some metals contain Oxygen and will burn with hardly any atmospheric Oxygen but as I also said Star Wars is not Science Fiction.
It's Sinbad with laser swords and if a burning ship makes sense in a world with Hydras it makes sense in a world with Sarlaccs, space or no space.
i noticed in the prequels that lasers don't keep going on forever after they're fired. they kinda poof out in a puff of black smoke. in space too.
i liked that detail.
Thanks to the EU we have a pseudo-scientific explanation for that (blaster fire and even 'laser swords') aren't lasers but plasma projectiles/blades controlled by forcefields (Thank-you EU, Thank you very much).
If a force-field is powerful enough to contain a plasma blade, wouldn't it have to be too strong to allow the saber to actually cut through anything?
And furthermore, woudln't you be able to have anti-lightsabre shielding pretty easily, then? Let's just give up on the physics of Star Wars right now, okay?
(Although you have to admit that blasters can't be lasers, given their projectile nature. But I digress)
Bingowings said:
Thanks to the EU we have a pseudo-scientific explanation for that (blaster fire and even 'laser swords') aren't lasers but plasma projectiles/blades controlled by forcefields (Thank-you EU, Thank you very much).
Wow, way to take the fun and interest out of everything EU. Sheesh.
timdiggerm said:
And furthermore, woudln't you be able to have anti-lightsabre shielding pretty easily, then? Let's just give up on the physics of Star Wars right now, okay?
Well, actually there's something called kortoesis (or however it's spelt) that can reflect lightsaber blows. It was featured in one of the Jedi knight games...
<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>
Yeah, but for some reason it's never mentioned in the films. So weird!
Anyway, back on subject...
timdiggerm said:
Yeah, but for some reason it's never mentioned in the films. So weird!
Anyway, back on subject...
Well, makes sense since the game (JK II: Jedi Outcast) takes place several years after RotJ... Luke seems to know about its properties but the remains of the Empire had only just started using it...
As for the ships in fire, the Executor´s bridge comes to mind (and the way it looks during the "fall" on the Death Star II is quite bad, while at it...). :)
greenpenguino said:
ray_afraid said:
Also the GC looks great.
Indeed, the Generated Computer did look great
;)
It really did! I mean, it was strange to see modern technology in Middle Earth, and even more unbelievable to think that Balrog would have a Mac, but when it looks that good, who can complain? ; )
Bingowings said:
This has been suggested before, even to the point of having seriously damaged capital ships purposely ramming the ships of the other side (as a tactic it works with the fighters so why not with the larger ships?).
Well, in the novelization it described blockade runners doing suicide runs into the bridges of SD's because they were going to blow up anyways.
and when the battle went on for as long as it did, some hrs according to the novlization, you'd expect more explosions and less ships left over from the battle. The only time you see a ship actually explode, aside from the DS blowing up the two cruisers, is the Star Destroyer right you see out the view port when Admiral Ackbar is telling the ships to concentrate on the SSD.