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Theater Performance Preservations — Page 5

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 (Edited)

Like when attacking the Death Star:  "Cut the chatter"

The PM system was partially set up so threads would not de-evolve into 'I want' threads.  Here's an example:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Pre-ANH-bootleg-telecine-a-widescreen-version/topic/6994/

Moth3r did a lot of work converting a VHS into the best of the Theater Performances this community has seen.  But instead of discussing the values of either the work accomplished or what was found in the actual source, there are 5+ pages of 'where is it'.  Go read it, it's disheartening.  It's a partial explanation of why Moth3r as he describes himself "...used to be a valued member of the community before he became a grumpy old git"

Posting on topic shows interest.

 

Have begun adding generic screen capture guides of these Theatrical Performances.  They're simple, just taking the files as is and extracting 1 frame every 10 seconds.  Please feel free to reference/use them.


1977
Star Wars Pre-Episode IV Bootleg - MeBeJedi
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-77_ANH_BOOTLEG-1.html
Star Wars Pre-Episode IV Bootleg - The Starkiller
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-SWIVBOOT-1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS.Moth3r.version.XVID-mthr
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-mthr-swtc1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS-(Source.of.Moth3r.xvid)-Disc1
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-PreANH-WS-BOOTLEG1-1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS-(Source.of.Moth3r.xvid)-Disc2
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-PreANH-WS-BOOTLEG2-1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS.Catnap
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-Catnap-1.html
Kreig der Sterne - ultrara
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-Krieg_der_Sterne-ultrara.html

 

*EDIT*

fudge, i screwed up with some of the guides, so if it's down, i'm working on updating...

*EDIT2*

think i've fixed the error.  macs are more forgiving with file name capitalizations...  if you see a 404 please let me know.

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None, I looked over your screen capture guides. Thanks for the hard work! It's good to have shots that can readily be compared. Unfortunately while looking through the guides, I noticed that when you try to double click on specific screenshots of the Catnap, I get a 404.

I also got a chance to look at some of the leads you found on the other page and hopefully we can contact some of them, though some of the posts' ages make it unlikely.

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The Aluminum Falcon wrote:

I noticed that when you try to double click on specific screenshots of the Catnap, I get a 404.

Thanks, should be fixed now.  Capitalization error.  Mac's overlook some of the text formatting, didn't test properly after upping to the server.  Sometimes I write a message in simpletext and the links get extra invisible characters added into them when dumping into the OT forum...  Don't notice it until clicking after posting...  none unPHUN error.  Delete to /

I also got a chance to look at some of the leads you found on the other page and hopefully we can contact some of them, though some of the posts' ages make it unlikely.

Yeah it's all a crap shoot.  Have been sending messages to the addresses mentioned in the posts, but yes they are old, so they've mostly come up bouncing back.  So then it's doing some internet tracking, seeing if you can find the persons current e-mail.  There's some user name or their real name which can be found in later posts or pages.  Have gotten some messages through that way.  One area I haven't used is facebook, so if someone wants to search for these people or mentions of people seeing a tape in the 80s there, that would be great.

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 (Edited)

Hey none, thanks for fixing the Catnap screenshots. I've been watching the MeBeJedi bootleg and was wondering if it had been firmly established that Tarkin's line during the Death Star conference ("We will crush the rebellion once and for all") was only cut off because of a reel change. Forgive me if this is common knowledge but I was watching Moth3r's telecine and noticed that the line does happen near a reel change.

I haven't gotten a chance to compare all the various bootlegs. Are there any other missing lines (which may or may not be the result of reel changes) in any of them?

While watching Moth3r's widescreen telecine, I noticed the PG rating card at the end. Did anyone else notice that the song playing over the credits still is fading out over the rating card? Just a random observation. Does the music end abruptly in any of the home video releases or is the fade out of the credits music just playing over a black screen?

EDIT: none, these two threads (here and here) briefly discuss the Starkiller bootleg. Can you add these links to your first post? I'm somewhat surprised that I can't seem to find a thread solely dedicated to the Starkiller releases: both his full screen telecine and the 1982 VHS rental.

EDIT: EDIT: Oh and I was just surfing the threads and I noticed this post in which Molto claims to have a 1979 bootleg sourced from an airline print. Is this the same as the MeBeJedi or Starkiller? Has anyone followed up on this? Unfortunately, it appears that he hasn't logged in since 2007.

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I've been looking at the Catnap bootleg and several questions sprang to mind.

The source looks very good, like a fresh print. The image is stable, the colours are good. Could this be from a privately owned 16mm or 35mm print? I didn't watch it all the way through, but did anyone spot any reel-change markers, which would prove this was from a theatrical print?

The print used is in such good condition, that it had to be videotaped very close to the original release date, within a couple of years I suspect. That would mean it was made with late 70's, possibly early 80's videocameras.

But.... To me, this just doesn't look like it was camcorded with vintage equipment.  There is very little tape noise for one. Also, the black levels pumping to blue seem to be a result of the video cameras auto-adjusting to the available light. Was such a feature available on the early video cameras of the 70's/80's?

Then again, this doesn't look videotaped at all. It looks telecined, more like Puggo's 16mm project. The color bars at the beginning would not be on a film print, would they? So what is the source of this boot? The black-level pumping could also occur with a telecine. Also, if this was filmed off a screen, the video camera would most likely blow out the bright sky at scene changes (which you see in my Jedi boot when the scenes change from dark space to daylight Tatooine). This does not happen on the Catnap version. The clouds are in fact very well preserved on that version. I would have expected the sky to be blown out to white if this was camcorded. This has all the characteristics of being telecined. Even the fact that it is in widescreen bears this out. 9 out of 10 camcorded bootlegs were centered/cropped to appeal to a mass (pirate) audience. This boot does not seem to be made with mass distribution in mind.

And the quality of the tape used for the transfer to DVD looks to be first or second generation analog video. This was not a dub of a dub of a dub like most bootlegs going around (mine included). Yes, this tape could be straight from the horse's mouth, from the very individual who taped it off the screen in the 70's, but how often does that happen...?

The DVD version we've been sharing has also had some post-processing done to it. The black bars are electronic, not part of the original capture which would have been 4x3 analog video. The cropping of Greedo's subs indicate quite a lot was lost. I would very much like to see the raw, source tape used before the cropping was applied. (Moth3rs source tape was most revealing in this respect. Video noise across the black bars etc.) The VOBS are dated generically 01.01.2000 00:00, and the menu looks to be from a Philips domestic DVD recorder from that time. The PAL recording also indicates a European source for this film.

So, where am I going with this?

The Catnap bootleg seems like it was made much more recently than the 80's, camcorded/telecined or not, which it obviously couldn't be, because noone would have access to a Pre ANH film print that would look so fresh at this time.

Which got me thinking. Could a "bootleg" be faked today, and would we, the OT forum members, be fooled?

What if I popped in my GOUT DVD (the commercial one), projected that on my setup with my HD projector, and then camcorded the screen with my 1998 VHS-C camera. Then used the VHS-C tapes as a source for a transfer to a DVD/HD recorder? The inherent degrading of the image, the analog characteristics of the camera,  the flickering, the VHS tapes used, the glitches where the tapes were changed, they would all mask the DVD source. Not to mention all the degrading that could be added in post. Then revealed this on the "scene" as some recently discovered (out of the blue) holy grail bootleg. Would we be fooled?

Now, I'm not saying that's what Catnap did. What would be the motivation? The source is obviously dirtier than any of the commercially available transfers of the GOUT (but the dirt, hairs and blemishes could easily be faked in the digital domain if one wished). It's just that this Catnap version doesn't add up to me. Too stable image, too fresh colours, too little print damage, too few analog copies of copies characteristics. Too good to be true.

(Then again, my own Empire boot is too good to be true also.)

I'm just sayin'

Visit my *NEW* Star Wars on Video Collection site:

http://www.swonvideo.com

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Regarding the 1977 audio preservation projects, would the left channel of Belbucus' 70mm vs '93 mix comparison (mentioned here) be worth including, or has it been patched together from the other sources in your set?

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Added one of the Starkiller links.  Thanks  The Aluminum Falcon, the other one was too brief.

I've been watching the MeBeJedi bootleg and was wondering if it had been firmly established that Tarkin's line during the Death Star conference ("We will crush the rebellion once and for all") was only cut off because of a reel change.

Moth3r's & Catnap's version you can see the reel change burn marks and the full line "one swift stroke" is there.  When Tarkin goes "Vader will provide us with the location" you can see the first burn mark then there's another after the swift stroke line.  Both MeBeJedi and Starkiller do not.  Which is a great clue that they are the same source.  Maybe the original recording got eaten, maybe the source was played a lot and that part of the film got ruined.  pure speculation.

Added the 1979 Airline version into the Honorary Mentions category.  It's closer to a 16mm print, on first impression, but interesting enough to look out for.  Never heard of that.  They used to show films on airplanes?!

I didn't watch it all the way through, but did anyone spot any reel-change markers, which would prove this was from a theatrical print?

Yes there are some there (see above), maybe i'll go through and pull out the ones which can be found.

Yes, this tape could be straight from the horse's mouth, from the very individual who taped it off the screen in the 70's, but how often does that happen...?

The pirate market has existed for some time.  In Variety articles from this time period they were afraid of actual film copies being run off.  If they were doing that, getting the telecine done, doesn't seem to problematic.

Could a "bootleg" be faked today, and would we, the OT forum members, be fooled?

Who's going to take the time to insert a hair into a faked bootleg.  (maybe that's why the GOUT was so expensive, they were also...)  I'm all for the wild theory, and it'll be phun to debate this one.  Catnap mentioned that the original tape was:

The tape came in a Hildebrandt covered case (old- style big box), and is recorded on a very early vhs tape (the heavy pitted type ones they used to make way back when) I imagine this tape has been around for many years!

This is something we can ask.  Could we see a picture of the tape.  Personally I just like seeing the actual item, gives them a sense of history.  and i'm not sure what a heavy pitted type looks like.

The black bars are electronic, not part of the original capture which would have been 4x3 analog video.

How certain of this are you?  Don't know the specifics of the telecine operation, but would assume there's a physical object which stops the light from hitting the receptor, so the blacks should be very black.  The Moth3r source also has well defined top and bottom black bars.  Ok see what you're talking about, there is very little noise in the blacks.  some top and bottom, but yet very little noticable white flecks popping up.  Which could mean it's close to the source or great equipment was used.  If you take a frame into photoshop and crank the brightness and contrast, it's not flat.  there are variations but extremely slight.  I'd say the cut off was done out of expediency.  If this is from the piracy market, you do it once and move on.

Would assume that part of the reason these films get changed slightly for each re-re-release is so they can be tracked.  A positive side effect of wanting to see what new technology can do.

The Catnap bootleg seems like it was made much more recently than the 80's, camcorded/telecined or not, which it obviously couldn't be, because noone would have access to a Pre ANH film print that would look so fresh at this time.

Nah it's possible, but unlikely.  Here's an example of a rebel screening from summer 2010: http://savestarwars.com/technicoloribscreening.html  Nice pics at the bottom.  Not sure if it was Pre-ANH, but it's the other 99% of the film.

Added : Belbucus Audio recording.  Thanks Moth3r, Satanika mentioned the morgands1 and BrianM, more the merrier.  I'll read through the linked thread to see  if the sources are mentioned.  In the first post, it's just the two theaters where the recordings took place.  Need  reference links for the morgands1 and BrianM anyway.

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none said:

Could a "bootleg" be faked today, and would we, the OT forum members, be fooled?

Who's going to take the time to insert a hair into a faked bootleg.  (maybe that's why the GOUT was so expensive, they were also...)  I'm all for the wild theory, and it'll be phun to debate this one. 

I've been asking myself the same thing. Why would anyone fake a bootleg? Without knowing more about when and where Catnap aquired it from, this is just a theory, but it all comes down to the same old thing... Money.

Imagine it's ten years ago, before internet dissemination of all things video (Star Wars especially). Before even Star Wars had debuted on DVD at all. If you saw an ad for something claiming to be a bootleg tape of a pre ANH scroll version, or was offered it at a convention, wouldn't you be intrigued? Even pay a pretty penny?  It could very possibly be worth someone's while to fabricate and sell such a "bootleg" on the black market at the time. There may even be a market for it today!

(I'm sure someone could fake the original crawl, even back then, and use the regular VHS widescreen tapes for the rest.)

Of course, now we won't have to fake a bootleg, we could just slap Moth3r's version on a VHS tape and head over to eBay. I have plenty of old VHS tapes from as far back as 1983 that could be used to lend this "bootleg" an air of authenticity, even some vintage clamshell cases. I am sure there are plenty of Star Wars fans who aren't aware of this forum and bite. Maybe even one of us might grab it out of curiosity in hope that it was a different boot! "Available now, Rare, One-of-a-kind Etc."

Now, I realize this sounds like I'm claiming that Catnap's tape is a fake. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just arguing that it could be done, credibly, and that we could be fooled.

Visit my *NEW* Star Wars on Video Collection site:

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none said:

The black bars are electronic, not part of the original capture which would have been 4x3 analog video.

How certain of this are you? 

Oh, not certain at all. Such masking could, and is, applied when telecineing. These just look a bit too perfect, which makes me suspect they were generated electronically.

However they were created, the top and bottom black bars are probably not part of the original telecine. They are perfectly level, perfectly stable, and have a much sharper edge than anything else in the picture. In comparison, the left and right borders are original. The top masking is less severe, but we're clearly not seeing the actual bottom of the frame.

Again, I'd really have liked to see the raw telecine of this.

To sum up my observations about the Catnap version:

  • I believe this to be a telecine transfer, not a camcorded screening*.
  • The burn marks you spotted suggest from a release print (or duplicate).
  • That it has undergone some sort of post cleanup of the masking.
  • That the videotape source is very close to first generation.

 

*The runtime is 1:56:01 (from start of Fox fanfare to end of ratings card) matches the PAL speedup ratio. This seems conclusive evidence that this transfer is a telecine. If it was camcorded, even with a PAL camera, the running time would still be the theatrical 2+ hours.

Visit my *NEW* Star Wars on Video Collection site:

http://www.swonvideo.com

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 (Edited)

Added 'blitter' 70mm audio recording info. which seems to be what Belbucus worked from.  *EDIT* actually it's 35mm and blitter explains more a few posts down /EDIT

Added info link about morgands1 & BrianM 70mm audio recording.

Updated BrianM version to LMayer.

 

The LMayer version has 'Crowd Interaction'!!!, from the description:

Both are the original Star Wars, one in May of '77 and the other in early '78. Yes, they are both "snuck-in" open air recordings with the real life "Laugh Track"

So the released BrianM is actually LMayer (Washington D.C.), not sure if the other BrianM (San Diego) was ever released.

*EDIT

Reading further:

The good/bad news is that this is the one recorded at a Monday matinee 11 months after Star Wars opened. Soooo, it has almost no crowd noise, which was the goal

 

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are these all on the newsgroups? I lost the PM you sent me none, I deleted to many while I was cleaning, I think I lost a few important PM's, damn.

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 (Edited)

Just chiming in here. Catnap looks like someone did their own professional telecine of a 16mm print, which is basically confirmed by the colour bars that precede the film. I couldn't say whether its the detail level or the softness on the edges, but something about this just looks like a 16mm print to me. It would also explain a lot of the extra dirt and hairs. Sometimes television stations and airlines were provided with their own 16mm prints for showing. Maybe the print came from there originally but that's probably not the source of the telecine itself (widescreen being a major factor), my personal feeling is that this telecine came from someone doing their own transfer of their own print. I would agree that the black bars are electronically generated during telecine.

I've never seen this particular telecine before, and I think the reason this wasn't very widespread was because it's not from the commercial black market (i.e. street sellers), but done by a guy for his own viewing. The VHS copy itself looks like it is only two generations from the master, so probably he made a copy of the master for his buddy and this is how it circulated outside of his collection and online, otherwise no one but he and his friends would have ever seen it. That's my explanation anyway. My feeling is that this dates to the late 80s judging by the quality level and level of preservation of the video itself; it probably precludes the first widescreen VHS. That was probably the reason this guy did the transfer in the first place, number one it wasn't possible to buy the film at all without spending a hundred dollars or more, but number two it simply wasn't possible to see the film in widescreen on videotape, so some collector decided to use his 16mm print to make his own personal widescreen transfer.

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none said:

Added 'blitter' 70mm audio recording info. which seems to be what Belbucus worked from.

FWIW, my audio recording is a bootleg transfer of the 35mm version to cassette, straight from the Dolby decoder in '77. I sent a couple of short clips to Belbucus who confirmed it was likely not from the 70mm version. Not sure what he worked from for his restoration work but I don't recall ever sending him the full recording.

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dark_jedi said:


newsgroups?

Attn: Mr. TwentyFifth
(who's not afraid showing his real email address
@1977.com>

u r r0x0r!!! x0x0x0

y u no postet MayBeJedi 77_ANH_BOOTLEG ?
(previously by segaflip@2005-10-25)

U wanna see it up there?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Darth Mallwalker said:

 

dark_jedi said:


newsgroups?

Attn: Mr. TwentyFifth
(who's not afraid showing his real email address
@1977.com>

u r r0x0r!!! x0x0x0

y u no postet MayBeJedi 77_ANH_BOOTLEG ?
(previously by segaflip@2005-10-25)

U wanna see it up there?

 

WTF? what is this, just dumb rambling?

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Darth Mallwalker said:

 

dark_jedi said:


newsgroups?

Attn: Mr. TwentyFifth
(who's not afraid showing his real email address
@1977.com>

u r r0x0r!!! x0x0x0

y u no postet MayBeJedi 77_ANH_BOOTLEG ?
(previously by segaflip@2005-10-25)

U wanna see it up there?

 

As Dark Jedi said, what do you mean? Please clarify.

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said:

77_ANH_BOOTLEG

Wow, speak of the devil!
not to mention ... devil-horns
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9154/headbanger.gif
U rock again
I'm gonna start callin' u %25, May i?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Again, more nonsense, your informative posts, as usual, are very helpful.

Thank you SO much.

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zombie84 wrote:

I couldn't say whether its the detail level or the softness on the edges, but something about this just looks like a 16mm print to me.

The softness/details level could be a factor of the digitization. The Moth3r source is ~9gb while Catnap is ~3.5.

Don't know if people have found certain differences between the 16mm (Puggo) and other known quantities from the film versions, besides resolution. (I checked the reel change burn marks from the Conference room scene and they are there in the 16mm, need to check Puggo's thread) Maybe finding a frame with a hair and measuring/figuring out how large the hair is in relation to either the 16 or 35 size. Question: In the telecine equipment, could the hair occupy different locations which would affect how big it appeared in frame or is it generally really cramped, so it's most likely directly touching the actual film, but behind a piece of glass?

Feel free to toss out questions ideas which we can submit to Catnap: Something like:

Do you have a story behind the tapes origin? Collector, bootleg market something else. How would you compare the tape playback to the DVD? The DVD is not quite a full DVD5 so people have commented that the lack of detail might mean it's something else. Personally i'm curious about the physical tape, gives a sense of history. (obsolete tech)  Can we get a pic?

The story of the Catnap creation being because the official VHS releases were not in widescreen makes sense, but why go through this process (color bars professional) and cut the bottom so heavily.  and the blue shift is unusual.

I'm about half way through watching, anyone else given it a look?  Thinking over this weekend can get the questions in order and see if sending them off to the contact info we've got.  Hopefully Catnap's still using that account.  Need to ask ReverandBeastly if he did all his communication through PMs.

 

Updated : blitter 35mm audio recording info. Thanks for the clarification, was skimming... little too quickly it seems.  Have you discovered anything else about the recording in the last few years?

 

Darth Mallwalker seems to have found an unwatched coke dispenser in the food court and is current on an unfiltered syrup sugar high and it's caused him to offer up free binaries help services.  I think the devil-horns would be better used on a Sith-Trifecta.  But feel free to update the .nfo's where Voi has gone awry.77

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Make mine Coke with cane sugar, Senor!
Have only sampled the Catnip -- scanned for all five reel change cues, including the coference room. All present and accounted right where they're expected to be.
Do you think the shape of the cue dots, anamorphically stretched and all, can offer clues about being 35mm source or 16mm reduction?

Color bars don't seem to have any pluge -- is that right terminology?
Is it useful for luma adjustments, or merely chroma?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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 (Edited)

Made a page for Reel Change captures:  (please recommend info to add)

http://fd.noneinc.com/Reel_Changes/Reel_Changes.html

Right now there are three sources.  Moth3r, Catnap and PuggoGrande.  Each 'source' should open into a new window.  If it goes into a new tab, then right click and choose new window. 

What becomes clear is that Catnap is probably as zombie84 suggested a 16mm.  Open up the first reel change of 3po and R2 talking, and the bottom cropping is almost exact, missing the horizon line only seen in Moth3r.

 

An oddity which could be a clue for future widescreen identification, in Moth3r's source Reel Change 5 to 6 In (the first burn) is doubled.

 

*EDIT*

And then checking the Starkiller & MeBeJedi, the burn marks are only on the top, there is no bottom one.  It maybe be cut off, a 16mm trait.  So maybe they both are 16mm source....  Need to identify other aspects to determine differences to nail down a source, before jumping to conclusions.

So the question, Could there have been burn mark differences between versions of a film?  I don't know.

*EDIT2*

But if this conclusion is correct, then this Catnap could be the source for the pan/scan Starkiller/MeBeJedi.  Would explain the blowed up resolution.  Maybe there's a video glitch which could support that they are a similar source.

*EDIT3*

nah the Catnap blue shift shows that this VHS version couldn't be Starkiller/MeBeJedi.  ok enough of my thinking and typing... Wappidity Scrappity Dooooo 

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The bottom cropping of the 16 mm was probably necessary to fit the widescreen frame onto the film with the standard anamorphic squeeze ratio. I've read about this being the case on the Cinemascope releases on 8mm (there's one on my site under the 8mm section).

Dutch company Cineavision avoided such cropping by reducing the overall size of the image (Black borders on the sides). Less resolution was the result, but the entire height of the frame was left intact. (I also have one of those on my site).

If this goes for 8mm, it probably applies to 16mm as well, as the proportions are the same (i think).

If this is all true, the Catnap film source was anamorphic (16 mm?), and the version we're seeing now on DVD (and probably on his tape) is both unsqueezed and hardmatted. The question is if that unsqueezing and hardmatting was done optically, in-camera, on the telecine, or applied later. Like Puggo's, most home telecines today are transferred squeezed, and the aspect ratio corrected after the fact in software.

..and I still think that blue shift is an artifact of brightness correction in the capture device, struggling to compensate for changes from dark to light scenes (either automated or by manual fiddling).

If Catnap's is indeed from a 16mm reduction, it disqualifies it from being a "theater performance preservation", to me anyway.

Visit my *NEW* Star Wars on Video Collection site:

http://www.swonvideo.com

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Video Collector wrote:

If Catnap's is indeed from a 16mm reduction, it disqualifies it from being a "theater performance preservation", to me anyway.

It's been noted in the first post.  But it's only a first strike, let's see if other identifying characteristics will come forward to add to the conclusion.

 

Again following the Reel Change theme, was looking at the Starkiller ones and there's an odd brown swipe which shows up at the same time as the burn marks would if they hadn't been cropped out.

Source : Starkiller

Anyone got a clue what could cause this?

 

Also for those who have VHS tapes similar to the MeBeJedi and Starkiller, could you take a pic of the tapes and cover as you got them?  Would also be interested in hearing the story of how you got your tape.  See if any similarities might help identify something of interest.

thanks in advance

none

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Puggo's Swedish 16mm preservation, which is cropped at the top instead of the bottom, only have one cue mark.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com