RedLetterMedia's Revenge of Nadine [TPM 108 pg Resp. [RotS Review+RotS Preview+ST'09 Reveiw+Next Review Teaser+2002 Interview+AotC OutTakes+Noooooo! Doc.+SW Examiner Rebuttal+AotC Review+TPM Review] — Page 26

Which as Mr. Plinkett observed is completely stupid, seeing as how Obi-Wan jumped out of the window at the first sight of the flying droid. 

Of course, if you explained the lack of logic in Obi Wan jumping out of the window at the droid without a moment of thought, the Lucas apologist nerds over at theforce.net and starwars.com will just say that Obi Wan used the force to sense that jumping at the droid was the right thing to do, just like dropping down into the huge crowd of separatist droids was the right thing to do. Anytime there is a contradiction in the story Lucas just uses the force as an excuse to get out of it. In the OT, Luke/Han/Obi Wan/Leia and Chewbacca were kind of shooting from the hip through their adventures. But their logic seemed reasonable enough and we could suspend our disbelief because the acting and story telling was convincing enough. In the PT, there's no character study, we never really get a sense of who they are, Obi Wan and Anakin and Obi Wan are constantly contradicting each other. In the OT when there was a contradiction in characters, the other would mention it, like in ANH when HAn decides to stay after saying "bring it on, I prefer a straight fight instead of all this sneaking around." Then Luke acknowledges his contradiction when Han doesn't want to rescue Leia. It makes sense and we can go along with it. During the prequels your mind is constantly questioning the logic of everything going on.

In an ideal world Obi-Wan would swap places with Qui-Gon during the Tatooine scenes of TPM and Anakin would swap places with Obi-Wan during the speeder chase in AOTC.

On the audio commentary to the Matrix films, the "critics" at one point, point out the seeming contradiction between "don't think you are, KNOW you are", and "your mind makes it real".

Then some dumb twerp kid says "it's not the spoon bending, it's yourself", and then seconds after "there is no spoon". What??!

It's just your typical vague pseudo-philosophical, pseudo-mystical mumbo jumbo, that falls apart under the slightest application of scrutiny, but can certainly be reconciled within itself using some kind of apologetic mental gymnastics.

Point is, I can't think of such "mythology" contradictions in the PT, right now, save for character contradictions (Vader's relation to the Emperor in V vs. in VI; Luke abandoning his training, Luke being fully trained), but at the end of the day, lines like "do it or do not; there is no try" are pretty dumb themselves.

It's just common clichés thrown into the pot to invoke an image of profundity, and when you throw in too many of them, contradictions are bound to ensue.

But hey, yea, the prequels tune that up to 11, so yea - that chase sequence was, indeed, incredibly dumb :D

Some plot holes Plinkett didn't mention:

HOW did the robot not hav a self-destruct? Why wasn't it ordered to fall down somewhere or crash directly into some building, instead of just kinda rubbing on some wall for a few seconds? HOW did Obi Wan expect the robot to lead him to the assassin? WHY did the assassin make herself known by shooting the robot (insead of Obi Wan's face), and then make herself even more obvious by flying away on a speeder with a distinguishable engine sound?

That's just dumb.

twooffour said:

Then some dumb twerp kid says "it's not the spoon bending, it's yourself", and then seconds after "there is no spoon". What??!

But there was no spoon.  Nothing in the matrix was real.  The spoon doesn't bend because it's not actually there.  Your mind bends as you realize the truth.

I don't want to get off on a tangent trying to defend the Matrix, but I fail to see the contradiction.

Well, actually, it's still the spoon that's bent, because it's not some kind of image in a dream, it's an actual virtual object that can be observed being bent by others. They don't observe YOU being bent, or "your mind", it's... the spoon.

The only way this could make sense would be by asking the question: "when the telekinetic moves an object through space, does he move the object, or himself?" The answer of course being, if it's the latter, he'd also have to move the whole rest of the universe save for the object in question, otherwise everyone else would merely observe HIM flying through the air, not the object - and suddenly, the whole crap falls apart.

Magneto can fly whenever applying his powers to metal object that are way too heavy for him to move, so he ends up moving himself rather than, say, the statue of liberty. Of course, this clever idea is instantly nullfied when we see Magneto hover on a metal plate he controls himself, but hey - that scene is badass.

Point is, if he only bends himself, he'd better bend the whole universe along with him, as well (like maybe as he does at the end of the film?! when he bends the walls?), save for the spoon - either that, or bend himself and everyone's else's MIND so they perceive the spoon bent, but then, that invokes the question of how they'll end up interacting with the spoon (that actually is still unbent, right?), and either way, changing everyone's perception through the network is still an externalized action, and it's not what the kid said, either.

Then, apparently the writers had originally wanted the Matrix to be a network between human brains (sort of mimicking the "the mind shapes the world" concept, I guess), but executive meddling said no, so instead, the script clearly provides us with a computer program run somewhere on a computer, that people can plug in and interact with. Or change, if so, but still by changing the actual world, not just "themselves".

Next, we gotta question how in a world that's based on code, hacking and security overriding, people can attempt to bend the rules by sheer faith, or power of will. If they've written some hax that allows them to move super fast, or jump across roofs, can't they just program it into their heads, too? Like "Kung Fu"? Why the whole "let go of everything you know" crap?

Fanwank might say it's how the Machines programmed the Matrix so the rebels would have more confidence in themselves - common sense sez, the writers used the whole "virtual reality" plot to shoehorn some Yoda speak into their movie, without really thinking things through. The thought process is as transparent as a force field, and it's not terribly intelligent.

At the end of the day, we can also say "Jedi have to rely on their instincts in faster situations, like a trained athlete relies on his reflexes and trained movement patterns without applying full conscious thought, but use the force to "think" in slower situations, that would cause other people to "stop and think" as well - so it all makes perfect sense!

Except, of course, then the whole "Jedis arrive on Naboo without a plan and want to go to underwater city all of a sudden" plot suddenly loses what little (well, actually, no) sense it might've made otherwise. ;)

twooffour said:

Aww fuck, I meant "rip"... as in "rift"...

You know, on one hand there's the plot hole... where certain aspects of the plot continuum are just kinda there... and then there's the space rift, that causes all of reality and existence to get sucked into nothingness.

:D

Darn!

twooffour said:

Well, actually, it's still the spoon that's bent, because it's not some kind of image in a dream, it's an actual virtual object that can be observed being bent by others. They don't observe YOU being bent, or "your mind", it's... the spoon.

The only way that could make sense would be something like asking the question: "when the telekinetic moves an object through space, does he move the object, or himself?" The answer of course being, if it's the latter, he'd also have to move the whole rest of the universe save for the object in question, otherwise everyone else would merely observe HIM flying through the air, not the object - and suddenly, the whole crap falls apart.

Magneto can fly whenever applying his powers to metal object that are way too heavy for him to move, so he ends up moving himself rather than, say, the statue of liberty. Of course, this clever idea is instantly nullfied when we see Magneto hover on a metal plate he controls himself, but hey - that scene is badass.

 

Point is, if he only bends himself, he'd better bend the whole universe along with him, as well (like maybe lilke he does at the end of the film?! when bends the walls?), save for the spoon - either that, or bend himself and everyone's else's MIND so they perceive the spoon bent, but then, that invokes the question of how they'll end up interacting with the spoon (that actually is still unbent, right?), and either way, changing everyone's perception through the network is still an externalized action, and it's not what the kid said, either.

Then, apparently the writers had originally wanted the Matrix to be a network between human brains (sort of mimicking the "the mind shapes the world" concept, I guess), but executive meddling said no, so instead, the script clearly provides with a computer program run somewhere on a computer, that people can plug in and interact with. Change, if so, but still by changing the actual world, not just "themselves".

 

Next, we gotta question how in a world that's based on code, hacking and security overriding, people can attempt to bend the rules by sheer faith, or power of will. If they've written some hax that allows them to move super fast, or jump across roofs, can't they just program it into their heads, too? Like "Kung Fu"? Why the whole "let go of everything you know" crap?

Fanwank might say it's how the Machines programmed the Matrix so the rebels would have more confidence in themselves - common sense sez, the writers used the whole "virtual reality" plot to shoehorn some Yoda speak into their movie, without really thinking things through. The thought process is as transparent as a force field, and it's not terribly intelligent.

 

At the end of the day, we can also say "Jedi have to rely on their instincts in faster situations, like a trained athlete relies on his reflexes and trained movement patterns without applying full conscious thought, but use the force to "think" in slower situations, that would cause other people to "stop and think" as well.

Except, of course, then the whole "Jedis arrive on Naboo without a plan and want to go to underwater city all of a sudden" plot suddenly loses what little (well, actually, no) sense it might've made otherwise. ;)

tl;dr

Herewith, I post a link to help a topic derailed by a horrible, inexcusable "tldr" flame bait (after all, the very thought of someone looking at a long post and then proceeding to "do read" it, is pure high octane nightmare fuel to us tender readers) back on track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVfVqfIN8_c

To my defense, I have to stress that this can hardly count as an "image only" response, since there are hundreds of images in that video so I don't think they feel particularly lonely.

Here's an image that I feel is related to and adds a valuable perspective to an equally on-topic image posted by another user, as an insightful response to a important point I made about plot hole metaphors:

It could also help with fan edits.

Might want to read Rule 4 instead.

(having said that, the youtube clip was funny)

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-fan-writes-108page-rebuttal-red-letter-medias-phantom-menace-review/

Not going to read it anytime soon but somebody provided a 108 page rebuttal to RLMs TPM review.

Oh god do I really have to read through 108 pages of prequel apologist mumbo jumbo?

There's two main things I got from RLM's reviews:

1. He's a comedic reviewer. As such, he exaggerates his viewpoints for comedic effect. This is to be expected, guys like Nostalgia Critic do this too.

2. None of his nitpicks would matter at all if the story was better written, the films better directed, and if the characters were better acted and more compelling. This was made pretty clear by the end of his Ep3 review.

Octorox said:

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-fan-writes-108page-rebuttal-red-letter-medias-phantom-menace-review/

 

Not going to read it anytime soon but somebody provided a 108 page rebuttal to RLMs TPM review.

A letter uploaded to Megaupload = the very definition of tl;dr

twooffour said:

Herewith, I post a link to help a topic derailed by a horrible, inexcusable "tldr" flame bait (after all, the very thought of someone looking at a long post and then proceeding to "do read" it, is pure high octane nightmare fuel to us tender readers) back on track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVfVqfIN8_c

To my defense, I have to stress that this can hardly count as an "image only" response, since there are hundreds of images in that video so I don't think they feel particularly lonely.

twooffour said:

Here's an image that I feel is related to and adds a valuable perspective to an equally on-topic image posted by another user, as an insightful response to a important point I made about plot hole metaphors:

 

It could also help with fan edits.

I laughed, despite the "flame bait" bit.

TV's Frink said:

Octorox said:

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-fan-writes-108page-rebuttal-red-letter-medias-phantom-menace-review/

 

Not going to read it anytime soon but somebody provided a 108 page rebuttal to RLMs TPM review.

A letter uploaded to Megaupload = the very definition of tl;dr

indeed.

It's exhaustive to read through... I didn't make it too far myself

TV's Frink said:

Octorox said:

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-fan-writes-108page-rebuttal-red-letter-medias-phantom-menace-review/

 

Not going to read it anytime soon but somebody provided a 108 page rebuttal to RLMs TPM review.

A letter uploaded to Megaupload = the very definition of tl;dr

 A short novel rebutting a video review of a movie that's 2/3 as long as the movie itself. This is getting surreal.

I can't get megaupload at work. Anyone wanna send this thing to me? :)

It's interesting for those who're interested in RLM's reviews (you know, those that started this 26 page thread) or SW discussion and critique in general.

Before everyone starts complaining about how long the rebuttal is, just because "of a movie" (for the record, if the analysis/critique is thorough enough, a review of any movie can easily take hours and hours, or fill a small book), I'd ask everyone to consider how much time and work is invested in MAKING a movie like this (although obviously not the script in this case :D), and how many hours the average bonus material on a DVD release fills ;)

twooffour said:

 

Before everyone starts complaining about how long the rebuttal is, just because "of a movie"

 You are aware of what site you're on right? There's an 800 page thread going over ESB frame-by-frame, and we claim to LIKE that movie. :)

PS
And seriously, if anyone would email me this, kick me a PM. Thanks.

He makes a lot of the same points you did TheBoost, at least as far as RLM "playing dumb" with plot details, etc.

He's definitely quite the prequel apologist, though. He comes across as outright offended most of the time.

Plus, the title of his rebuttal is "A Study in Fanboy Stupidity". I don't know if I've been under the wrong impression all these years or what, but last time I checked, weren't fanboys the ones more likely to write 108 page rebuttals to harsh criticisms of films like The Phantom Menace? I guess 'fanboy' is just 'people with opinions I don't like who like some other stuff' now.

Thanks Quackula (great name btw) for the email.

doubleofive said:

 

Quackula said:

Plus, the title of his rebuttal is "A Study in Fanboy Stupidity". I don't know if I've been under the wrong impression all these years or what, but last time I checked, weren't fanboys the ones more likely to write 108 page rebuttals to harsh criticisms of films like The Phantom Menace? I guess 'fanboy' is just 'people with opinions I don't like who like some other stuff' now.

To them, WE are the fanboys, obsessed with 30 year old movies.

 

Yeah, but aren't they fans of the OT as well?