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But if Anakin was in training to be a Jedi, wouldn't that have the hero mystique built in?
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How did you think things would play out in episode III? — Page 2
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Another possibility could have been that Anakin was discovered as late in life as Luke (maybe even later) as Obi-Wan tried to teach him his late start could have been a handicap so he started taking shortcuts to catch up (using his anger, fear, hatred etc in short bursts for good reasons) until it became addictive and the man he once was lost (Dark Willow/Dark Phoenix were good examples of using power as a short cut but finally twisting a good character).
Anakin being too old in TPM was kind of stupid did they start teaching Jedi as embryos or something?
When Yoda mentions Luke's age in ESB it would then underline the fear that he too would fall into the same trap.
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Sluggo said:
But if Anakin was in training to be a Jedi, wouldn't that have the hero mystique built in?
To me, a hero is someone who does something really great, like risking oneself to save a bunch of people. Being a Jedi could lead to becoming a hero, but just being a jedi, I don't know. Luke became a hero before he was a jedi, by destroying the death star. It's two different things.
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I agree with that, but how would you convey that in film?
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I used to think maybe Anakin would have lived a double life for a while, the Vader costume being the disguise. (And traditional Sith armor style to boot.) The big fight we'd waited decades to see should have been while dressed as Vader.
Then, after the whole falling in lava pit thing, the armor also became his life support system, because Vader was already known to many around the galaxy, and the Emperor needed that reputation to continue.
Considering how we only get to Vader proper in the last few minutes of the film, I felt a bit cheated. All those publicity shots of Darth with his lightsaber drawn were damn lies! ;)
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Sluggo said:
I agree with that, but how would you convey that in film?
Convey what?
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Oh sorry. This:
I don't think the OT ever painted Anakin as a hero. Obiwan called him the "best starfighter in the galaxy, and a good friend." So he was a nice guy with first class skills. He didn't have to be "the chosen one", he could have just been one of the guys.
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This thread reminds me how difficult it is to fit Anakin's story established in the OT into 3 films.
The first film sets everything up. It's the New Hope of the series. We don't really explore too much into depth of the characters. We just want to have a solid, action-based film that sets up the impending doom of the Clone Wars and establishes Anakin as a likable character.
The second film should focus on character development. The Clone Wars should be in full force and the characters should face tribulations. I think it's too early to have Anakin turn to the dark side in this film. We've only begun to explore the aspects of his character in this film, and it would be so sudden we can't sympathize with it. He should still be tempted and confused however. Of course, this is the film where Anakin and Padme develop a relationship. Perhaps Padme realizing she was pregnant would be good cliffhanger ending.
Based on this idea of the first two films, here is my vision of the third:
Anakin has been sent to battle on a far off system, and he has not heard anything from Padme or about the birth of his child. He is then greviously injured at the start of the film (not yet requiring a suit however, perhaps some facial scars, amputated arm, etc.) His driving motive is to get home to see his child and end the atrocities he has experienced in the war.
He comes back to Coruscant after Palpatine offers him a position to be his bodyguard and liason to the Jedi. Eager to leave the front lines and help end the war, he gladly accepts. However, as he is returning, he learns that Alderaan has been taken seige by the Separists, where Padme and the children were guests of the royal house. He soon has dreams of troopers gunning down Padme holding a child. The dream ends with Obi-Wan looking over her body. Anakin resolves to go to Alderaan to save his family.
Palpatine warns him to stay on Coruscant, where they discuss their mutual desire to end the war. They both agree that a more authoritarian republic could have prevented the war.
Palpatine also insinuates that the Jedi started the war and that they are planning to overthrow him. Given that the Separatists are lead by a former Jedi, this does not seem implausible to Anakin. The Jedi have treated him like cannon-fodder so far, so Anakin severely questions his loyalty to the Jedi. Not wanting to offend his friend, Anakin never talks about his misgivings with Obi-Wan.
Meanwhile, the Jedi assign Obi-Wan on a secret mission to Alderaan to kill Dooku. He is also charged with protecting the royal family. Anakin pleads to go on the mission so he can save his family, but the council denies him. Especially vocal is Mace Windu. Windu has always been suspicious of Anakin since he joined the Jedi. Though not expressing it to Anakin, he senses the growing cloud of darkness around Anakin and thinks he would be dangerous for such an important mission. Anakin becomes furious. He suspects the Jedi are covering their involvement on both sides of the war.
It is then that Palpatine reveals his true Sith identity. He pleads Anakin to leave the Jedi. He tells Anakin the Jedi council has become irreparably evil, and that the only way to end the war and save his family is to destroy the Jedi. Only through the dark side can he attain the abilities he needs to take down the evil council members responsible for the war.
Anakin does not give in yet. He goes to the Jedi Temple to meditate, but discovers the council has mysteriously adjourned. Assuming the council has gone to overthrow Palpatine, he rushes back.
There he discovers Windu about to slay Palpatine. He engages Windu in a scene reminiscent of Vader and Luke crossing sabers in ROTJ. Channeling the darkside he defeats Windu as Sidious goads him on. Anakin kneels before Sidious and becomes his new apprentice.
On Alderaan, Obi-Wan kills Dooku, but not before he reveals his involvement with Sidious. He reveals that Palpatine has ordered a squadron to kill Padme and the children. He rushes to go save them. He arrives just as the troopers begin their attack. The troopers burst in a room. Padme manages to hide Leia, and holds Luke as she is shot. The troopers radio in that she had been killed. Just then, Obi-Wan arrives and slays the troopers. He discovers Luke still alive under her mother and Leia hiding. Palpatine is not certain that the child is dead. Nevertheless, he informs Anakin that Obi-Wan lead a strike on the royal palace that killed Padme and his child. Anakin is furious with Obi-Wan, as Palpatine goads that even friends can betray one another.
Palpatine gives Order 66. Anakin personally tracks down Obi-Wan, who has escaped to Mustafar. They duel, and Anakin's fate is unclear.
Closing scenes: Palpatine announces the betrayal of the Jedi and the new Empire. Suited Vader storms the Jedi Temple. Leia stays at Alderaan, while Luke goes to Tatooine.
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Sluggo said:
Oh sorry. This:
I don't think the OT ever painted Anakin as a hero. Obiwan called him the "best starfighter in the galaxy, and a good friend." So he was a nice guy with first class skills. He didn't have to be "the chosen one", he could have just been one of the guys.
How to convey that in a film? There are so many ways. The Jedi don't have to be so elaborate. They just have to be a set of spiritual police that roam around the galaxy keeping order and having some adventures. GL painted himself into a corner with the "chosen one" stuff. Episode one could be just a simple adventure like SW, with some villain that they beat together. Their commaraderie would have to be built through the script and the acting. Episode two could still be about the clone wars, but it would need to include how Anakin got introduced to the dark side, and how he starts to get wrapped up in it. He could have his two kids in ep.2 also. Then in episode three, he would need to start getting evil, losing control of himself, and leaving a saddened Obiwan to join a an evil empire that takes over the galaxy. This also makes his wife sad (like Leia said), and she ends up dying in some tragedy trying to help Anakin resist the dark side. By now, the kids are already 7 or 8 years old, and being parentless they are adopted by their uncle - who by the way we should have met a LOT earlier than was done in the actual PT (because his change from a jolly guy in Ep.3 to a bitter old man in SW would be a good side effect).
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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
xhonzi said:
Just for arguments sake, would you agree that most of those are external factors, and somewhat are not the choice of the character in question... therefore making him a tragic victim rather than a powerful villain?
Right. And that's what was said in the OT... Vader was "seduced" by the dark side of the force.
That's the key word, I think. Seduced. Whenever I think of how Anakin's fall should have played out, I keep coming back to "he should have been Seduced by the Power of the Dark Side of the Force". And I would say that seduction is probably the most choice based of the different things you listed. When you are seduced, you usually receive different consequences than the ones you considered when making your choice... but it's less cheating than "oh noes! My robotic arm's AI overrode my own free choice and I never wanted to do those things!" Or, "I died, and a dark spirit resurrected me and now I'm EVIIIILLLL!"
Like Bilbo was seduced and ultimately addicted to and changed by the Ring (and Gollum too). It didn't have to be completely a choice.
I agree. It had to be something that would last for 20-30 years... and fleeting emotions and broken promises have a tendency to not work. Something that starts out as a choice, and then addicts or otherwise binds the person to it... that's what was required.
xhonzi said:
None of those (which I have seen/read) really present a fallen hero, right? Maybe some normal people gone bad... which is also a good thing, but still in something of a different class than what we'd expect from Star Wars. Or am I wrong?
I don't think the OT ever painted Anakin as a hero. Obiwan called him the "best starfighter in the galaxy, and a good friend." So he was a nice guy with first class skills. He didn't have to be "the chosen one", he could have just been one of the guys. And I never thought of his portrayal in the PT as being consistent with "a good friend". I always thought a better Anakin character would have been a nice, mild-mannered, kind, well-intentioned and highly skilled young man who unfortunately was also a little gullible and ended up being seduced by and ultimately controlled and changed by dark forces. That way, it would be scarier because it would show that anyone could end up on the dark side, if you're not careful.
One of the main purposes, in my opinion, of Anakin's fall to the dark side from an OT perspective is to give the threat that Luke might fall some real weight. Luke is a hero, but he is not above being tempted into the dark side. If Anakin is not a hero, then Luke is not as at much risk.
Other than that, I like your take on the well-intentioned but gullible and weak willed nature of his character.
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xhonzi said:
Other than that, I like your take on the well-intentioned but gullible and weak willed nature of his character.
I have to say, I don't like the gullible or weak willed take on him. Vader was never a character who suggested a lack of intelligence to me, certainly not a lack of will power.
He has intelligence and will power, he just uses them for evil.
The question the prequels need to answer is why a once good man would do this. I may just be repeating myself here, but when you live a state of chaos there is a natural tendency to seek out order - if the chaos is great, you may sometimes even seek out a rigid, confining order - not just outside yourself, but inside yourself also. Just as the outside world of the galaxy would have been wrecked with conflict, so Anakin's inner-world would have been boiling over with fear, anger and desire.
A Jedi's life is all about facing such conflicts, but finding inner-peace through discipline. Facing outer horrors but maintaining inner sanctity. The war Anakin found himself in, however, was too much for him and he sought an easy way out of the suffering, an easy way to silence his troubling emotions. In the pursuit of this, he made himself "more machine than man" and transformed himself into the kind of monster he'd been fighting all along - "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster" and all that.
The disorder of the galaxy caused him pain and he was desperate to be free of it. To this end, he tried to rid himself of that which personally caused him pain - his very humanity - and that which was the origin of the pain to begin with - the disorder of the galaxy.
There's even a hint of this being the case in Return of the Jedi. When Luke asks Vader to come away with him, Vader says that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do". It may be that Obi-Wan had once entreated Anakin, then suffering emotionally, to simply give up on the galaxy - to seek out the life of a hermit so as to maintain spiritual sanctity, even at the expense of participation in the material world. The alternative was, after all, the Dark Side.
I'm rambling now, but this is all stuff that will eventually be included in my alternate prequel outlines which I'm slowly working on in the Script Writing and Re-Writing forum.
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An idea I had before seeing Ep. III was that Padme would go into hiding with Leia on Alderaan. Then Padme would be killed unknowingly by Vader in Ep. IV when Alderaan is destroyed. But I guess that would tie in too much with the original films and give more importance and weight to a scene in a movie George doesn't like anymore.
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TheBoost said:
Erikstormtrooper said:
I expected Anakin to die in the lava. I expected Sidious to bring him back to life using the Dark Side, the catch being that Sidious has to consciously channel the Dark Side for Vader to remain alive. That is Sidious' power over Vader ... the true "Power of the Dark Side" ... the reason Vader "must obey".
Plus, if Anakin really dies, Obi Wan would not have to make the decision to walk away from his dying friend. And he becomes less of a liar in ANH when he tells Luke that Vader murdered his father.
This would have changed the nature of the OT more than anything that was in the Prequels. If Vader is literally an unwilling slave to Empy, then there is no redemption for him as he's being actively coereced to do evil by a very real threat.
And how does it make Obi less of a liar?
Vader may be a slave, but his redemption becomes more powerful because he knows he's condemning himself by turning on his master.
Obi's less of a liar because Anakin really is murdered. He's still a liar, he just goes from 9 to 6 on the liar scale.
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
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If Lucas had wanted to keep the surprises of the movies when watched in sequence then Yoda could only be mentioned, not seen, and Anakin turning into Darth Vader couldnt be shown.
I saw ESB in 1980 and the surprises were the highlight of the movie--I expected Yoda to be some austere bearded guy on a throne in the swamp and the Vader revelation was a real shocker.
Anything was possible--Darth Vader could have been around from the start of the movie (wouldnt that have been a surprise?) and Anakin Skywalker fights Vader before Obi Wan and Vader gets severely wounded or seemingly killed..and then after Anakin's defeat we see Darth Vader reappear(him having taken the name and persona of the character after the Emperor fixes him up). I hated the Prequels--so any change is ok with me. lol
And I also expected that General Kenobi would have been out of the jedi order and some kind of mercenary wandering Jedi fellow when he encounters Anakin. He did say in SW he didnt go by the name of Obi Wan for a long time...
And I expected Luke to be on Dagobah as an infant..
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TheoOdo said:
xhonzi said:
Other than that, I like your take on the well-intentioned but gullible and weak willed nature of his character.
I have to say, I don't like the gullible or weak willed take on him. Vader was never a character who suggested a lack of intelligence to me, certainly not a lack of will power.
He has intelligence and will power, he just uses them for evil.
The question the prequels need to answer is why a once good man would do this. I may just be repeating myself here, but when you live a state of chaos there is a natural tendency to seek out order - if the chaos is great, you may sometimes even seek out a rigid, confining order - not just outside yourself, but inside yourself also. Just as the outside world of the galaxy would have been wrecked with conflict, so Anakin's inner-world would have been boiling over with fear, anger and desire.
A Jedi's life is all about facing such conflicts, but finding inner-peace through discipline. Facing outer horrors but maintaining inner sanctity. The war Anakin found himself in, however, was too much for him and he sought an easy way out of the suffering, an easy way to silence his troubling emotions. In the pursuit of this, he made himself "more machine than man" and transformed himself into the kind of monster he'd been fighting all along - "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster" and all that.
The disorder of the galaxy caused him pain and he was desperate to be free of it. To this end, he tried to rid himself of that which personally caused him pain - his very humanity - and that which was the origin of the pain to begin with - the disorder of the galaxy.
There's even a hint of this being the case in Return of the Jedi. When Luke asks Vader to come away with him, Vader says that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do". It may be that Obi-Wan had once entreated Anakin, then suffering emotionally, to simply give up on the galaxy - to seek out the life of a hermit so as to maintain spiritual sanctity, even at the expense of participation in the material world. The alternative was, after all, the Dark Side.
I'm rambling now, but this is all stuff that will eventually be included in my alternate prequel outlines which I'm slowly working on in the Script Writing and Re-Writing forum.
Good points, Odo.
IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!
"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005
"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM
"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.
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Erikstormtrooper said:
TheBoost said:
Erikstormtrooper said:
I expected Anakin to die in the lava. I expected Sidious to bring him back to life using the Dark Side, the catch being that Sidious has to consciously channel the Dark Side for Vader to remain alive. That is Sidious' power over Vader ... the true "Power of the Dark Side" ... the reason Vader "must obey".
Plus, if Anakin really dies, Obi Wan would not have to make the decision to walk away from his dying friend. And he becomes less of a liar in ANH when he tells Luke that Vader murdered his father.
This would have changed the nature of the OT more than anything that was in the Prequels. If Vader is literally an unwilling slave to Empy, then there is no redemption for him as he's being actively coereced to do evil by a very real threat.
And how does it make Obi less of a liar?
Vader may be a slave, but his redemption becomes more powerful because he knows he's condemning himself by turning on his master.
Obi's less of a liar because Anakin really is murdered. He's still a liar, he just goes from 9 to 6 on the liar scale.
Except in that scenario, he isn't "murdered by Vader". More accurate would be, "murdered by The Emperor/the dark side".
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Bantha Foodoo said:
If Lucas had wanted to keep the surprises of the movies when watched in sequence then Yoda could only be mentioned, not seen, and Anakin turning into Darth Vader couldnt be shown.
I saw ESB in 1980 and the surprises were the highlight of the movie--I expected Yoda to be some austere bearded guy on a throne in the swamp and the Vader revelation was a real shocker.
Anything was possible--Darth Vader could have been around from the start of the movie (wouldnt that have been a surprise?) and Anakin Skywalker fights Vader before Obi Wan and Vader gets severely wounded or seemingly killed..and then after Anakin's defeat we see Darth Vader reappear(him having taken the name and persona of the character after the Emperor fixes him up). I hated the Prequels--so any change is ok with me. lol
And I also expected that General Kenobi would have been out of the jedi order and some kind of mercenary wandering Jedi fellow when he encounters Anakin. He did say in SW he didnt go by the name of Obi Wan for a long time...
And I expected Luke to be on Dagobah as an infant..
Yes yes yes yes yes. Love all of this.