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Star Wars 1977 70mm sound mix recreation [stereo and 5.1 versions now available] (Released) — Page 9

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Dunedain said:

Did you encode these at 448k from the uncompressed master .wav file? :)

Satanika upmixed the stereo file I sent him (flac, for ease in uploading) using the Foobar2000 plugin ATSurround, into a multichannel wav and added in the custom LFE channel, then encoded the result to 5.1 AC3 at 448 kbps.  So in short, yes.  ;)

It sounds fantastic.

 

Edit: the download links are at the bottom of the previous page, in case anybody missed them.

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Cool! Thanks hairy_hen!

Does anyone know if this can be used for Adywan's ESB reconstruction without any resynching?

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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It should, I used Ady's sound for PDE and it was in sync without fiddling with it and so was the GOUT sound, so if this is in sync with GOUT, it should be in sync with Ady's reconstruction and my PDE as well.

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Is there a stereo 2.0 ac3 file for star wars?

Or is it only PCM.

I have always hated the smashing glass sounds so i hardly ever watch the factory pressed gout, that and the very stupid motion blur and DVNR.

 

Yet the fidelity on the PCM on the definitive laserdiscs is the best the films have ever sounded in their original forms on home video.  A shame really. They should have just used the 70mm on the DVD release, or did they lose the master copy?

The PCM is obviously not as good as the original 70mm, but the fidelity obviously blows away any 35mm optical DOLBY print.

The effects on the 1997 mix were astounding in theaters you actually felt a rumble during the death star trench run, or during the initial star destroyer fly over.  Not sure if this was DSS sound or DOLBY Digital stereo.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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skyjedi2005 said:

I have always hated the smashing glass sounds so i hardly ever watch the factory pressed gout, that and the very stupid motion blur and DVNR.

 Hopefully the Japan special collection (mastered in the 80's) will look good on my gear; No DvNR and blur. The colorbalance is not too good but i have the perfect thing for that, an Elite Video Bvp-4+ that processes the signals in the analog domain without A/D and D/A.

Laserdisc for life, Denon LA3500, Sony C2ex/+\Mdp999 “Hercules”
if you want to contribute: http://paypal.me/LDRevive

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Aleksbmw said:

skyjedi2005 said:

I have always hated the smashing glass sounds so i hardly ever watch the factory pressed gout, that and the very stupid motion blur and DVNR.

 Hopefully the Japan special collection (mastered in the 80's) will look good on my gear; No DvNR and blur. The colorbalance is not too good but i have the perfect thing for that, an Elite Video Bvp-4+ that processes the signals in the analog domain without A/D and D/A.

One thing to be aware of is Star Wars was pressed in 1986 so it has the 1985 digital remix not the 1977 stereo mix.

The CAV full frame that came out in america in the previous year 1985 does have that theatrical mix, if only in low quality analog.  No professional digital transfer/remaster was ever done.  Though Belbecus did a transfer of it many moons ago on these forums.  And i have it on disc somewhere with the reference quality version and the patched version that can be synced to the gout.

The 1985 CAV had beautiful picture quality too bad it was only in pan and scan.  I think it was mastered from a newly made IP at the time, that was incidentally made in 1985 also. Too bad that pressing is notorious for Laser rot, if less so than the initial CLV pressing in 1982 which also had the theatrical stereo mix but they sped up the film and audio a bit to fit it.

Not that is makes any sense but i found the 1982 rental tape vhs actually sounded better in places than the 1985 CAV laserdisc, and both feature the same audio.

Sorry if i am rambling on again and for derailing the thread when i initially just had a question for the esteemed star wars audio expert extraordinaire, hairy hen,lol.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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So adywan's ESB recreation is completely gout-synched?  Awesome.  I haven't had a chance to see his version yet (sacrilege, I know!), but I'll have to do that soon.  If this mix will fit to it that would make it even better for me.  He mainly used the SE 5.1, which sounds quite good for the most part and has the advantage of discrete channels, but I don't like the way they mixed the surrounds (flashy and too loud).

I never made a 2.0 ac3, just the flac, but it would be easy enough to encode one at the bitrate of your choice.  ;)

The fact that the '93 pcm for Star Wars came right from the 70mm printmaster is the reason it sounds so good.  If only they hadn't added the extra junk on top of it!  I really dislike the shattering glass sounds as well--replacing those with the 35mm version was the first edit I ever made on this project.  The loss of dynamics during that section is noticeable, but a worthwhile tradeoff.  I partially compensated by raising the blasting volume by 2 db; any more and it would have been too obvious I'd fiddled with it.

I'm sure they still have the 70mm mix in the archives, since they claim to have kept everything.  I think they should have used it as the primary audio source when making the special edition, because its power and sound quality are superior to the '97 mix (which is still pretty good for the most part).  But why use an existing version when you can change it and make it "better"?

I don't remember anything about the LFE portion of the '97 mix in the theatre, or whether the place I saw it was even using 5.1 at the time.  On the laserdisc ac3, I find the Star Destroyer flyby to be remarkably subdued in that respect--not even close to the accounts of awe-inspiring rumble in the 70mm version.  Because of that, I made a large increase to the bass volume in that scene for the 5.1, so it would live up to what it should be.  The Empire and Jedi SE's were never lacking in bass in that way--no idea why it should have been so low.

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So, your Star Wars 70mm stereo restoration and Star Wars 5.1 soundtracks, as well as your just-finished The Empire Strikes Back 5.1 soundtrack, will all be featured on dark_jedi's upcoming release of his new v3 dual-layer DVD's of both of those movies?

Any idea when Return of the Jedi will be ready (I think you mentioned wanting to double check it to make sure the bass from the 1997 SE laserdisk LFE channel that was being added to the 1993 laserdisk soundtrack to restore the bass close to what it was like in theaters was as correct sounding as possible)? :)

Thanks for all your efforts, hairy_hen. It's going to be great to be able to see the Star Wars trilogy in the best picture quality yet achieved for home video, and having that combined with having the soundtracks restored as close as possible to what the movies sounded like in theaters before the 1997 SE changes were made. :)

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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That's the plan.  I checked through some of Jedi yesterday and found that for the most part, like Empire, the bass levels from the SE are pretty good already.  But there are definitely some that are excessive and need to be reduced in order to sound like they belong there.  I aim to have this done soon--it's just a matter of being able to listen to it at full blast and figuring out how to set the levels, then making another test file and listening again.  Trial and error combined with creative judgement.

The Empire and Jedi LFE tracks come from the 2004 dvd's, but that's okay because they are pretty much identical to the 1997 versions, and at 448k instead of 384.  For Star Wars, about 65% is from the '97 mix and about 30% from the '04, with the remaining 5% an amplification of the existing bass in the '93 stereo.

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Yes, that wouldn't be the first time that the 2004 even-more-SE DVD set have been criticized for having bass that is out of proportion to the event, at times. For example, someone pointed out that when R2-D2 falls over in Star Wars on Tatooine, after the jawas hit him with that electrical stunning device, for some reason in the 2004 DVD the bass is way overdone. I assume such things were noticed in your new corrected soundtracks and replaced with the 1997 SE LFE in places like that? :)

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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The '97 version has instances of overcooked bass as well, but in different places.  I pretty much went with whichever blended best into the overall soundtrack, and adjusted the levels for each bass effect that needed changing individually.

R2's fall ended up being a 12 db reduction of the '04 effect, providing just a tiny amount of oomph rather than a needlessly massive impact.  Strictly speaking, it doesn't have to be there at all, but I like the way it sounds.  ;)

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I just listened to your job on the Empire 2.0 audio, flawless editing work as usual. Thank you!! :)

Snowspeeder crash audio restored, two glitches in the '93 PCM repaired and the Departure of Boba Fett like how it's edited in the '97- mix, perfectly done! even though I'm fond of the slightly clunky "original Departure."

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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hairy_hen Thanks for the updated ESB 5.1 mix, do you have any kind of guesstimated time frame for Jedi's updated 5.1 version?

I am also waiting on the finalized version of g-forces Jedi script so your audio was not the only thing I have been waiting on, just so you know.

So in the meantime I will just keep plugging away on the '97 SE v2 Set.

also will you upload the corrected PCM files that were mentioned a few weeks ago?

Thanks

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hairy_hen said:

So adywan's ESB recreation is completely gout-synched?  Awesome.  I haven't had a chance to see his version yet (sacrilege, I know!), but I'll have to do that soon.  If this mix will fit to it that would make it even better for me.

I remember reading that his version is GOUT-synched -  although it may require a different initial delay, this shouldn't present a problem.

He mainly used the SE 5.1, which sounds quite good for the most part and has the advantage of discrete channels, but I don't like the way they mixed the surrounds (flashy and too loud).

Ady said he used surround channels from the 2004 audio in his 5.1 mix. I know that there are a couple of music dropouts reported, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the overall dynamics of Ady's mix when you get a chance to hear it.

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Though I have yet to see/hear adywan's version, I have listened closely to the official 2004 ESB dvd 5.1 mix and usually it does sounds pretty good.  The surround channels are consistently too loud, as if they forget to set the levels properly.  It's possible the 3 db difference in surround channel calibration between theatrical and home video acoustics is to blame.  If I turn my rear speakers down by 3 db, it comes out closer to what the surround effects in the '93 mix are like, and the '93 version sounds just right to me without having to adjust anything.

Even compensating for the level difference, though, there's still something off about it.  Many of the original surround effects are there, but a lot of the new ones call too much attention to themselves, distracting even with the level adjustment.  Panning sounds don't always move seamlessly, and I'm just left with the impression that they were too focused on changing the mix and making it 'better' without regard to what was good about it to begin with.  (Which, of course, is exactly the problem with the special editions as a whole.)  I don't rule out the possibility of my setup being imperfect--it's not exactly a pro studio, after all--but I don't hear these kinds of errors in other material.  I haven't spent much time with the '97 5.1 but what I have heard was identical to the '04 except for specific new additions on the dvd.

The fronts of the SE are well put together, though--discrete channels are very nice there, since upmixing can divert too much to the center channel at times.  Its dynamics are strong, though I still prefer the '93 version for general balance.  As an example, when Luke says "Echo Station Five-Seven, we're on our way" and the snowspeeders fly out into battle, there is a power in the sound which the SE does not match; also, shots of the Rebels' white tower guns seem to be missing laser blast sounds for some reason.

Generally they did a very good job with the LFE channel.  How much is 70mm authentic and how much is new I can't say, but much of it in my version remains unchanged.  My work was for the most part limited to bringing down excessive peaks and strengthening subdued moments, often around 3 db either way.  Rare occasions necessitated a 6 or even 10 db reduction, with a couple of synch adjustments so that the low end of ship flybys coincide more directly with what is happening in the mains instead of hanging on afterwards.  One sound of a walker footstep crashing down was augmented from the '93 mix, and a few other things were spruced up with bass copied from elsewhere in the movie, since the SE had no bass in these places but should have.  A bit of 'creative' editing on my part, but it all works very well.  :)  The '93 mixes have a general main channel bass sense that the SE's lack, and adding the LFE on top of that pre-existing excellence gives a better effect than either version achieves separately.

There is a very neat LFE effect when Luke is falling down the tubes underneath Cloud City, some kind of pulsating electrical humming sound.  No idea if it's a new addition or not, but it sounds really cool.

One thing that bugged me in the SE was when Chewie begins to strangle Lando after being untied, Leia's line "Do you think that after what you did to Han that we're going to trust you?" is partially cut off by the enormous roar Chewie lets out.  This was not present in the 35mm or '93 versions, and seems like a case of Ben Burtt failing to realise that his sounds shouldn't be allowed to overpower everything else.  On my 5.1 the full line is heard as it should be, though retaining this did make it somewhat difficult to transition into the '97 mix for Fett's departure.  The levels and music synch didn't quite match up, but hopefully the edit will go unnoticed.

Jedi's SE audio flaws are pretty much the same kind of thing as with Empire.  Still, compared to the abominable rubbish that is the 2004 mix of A New Hope, any shortcomings are very minor indeed, and if I seem fixated on them it's only because I'm a perfectionist about my favourite aural experiences.  lol

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Well folks, it looks like I'm all done with my Star Wars sound editing.  RotJ is finished, and I've uploaded the files for Satanika to create the 5.1 mix.  Barring any last minute changes, it should be ready as soon as I've heard back and verified that it sounds right.

I ended up making an edit that I hadn't anticipated originally, which was to replace the section of the '93 mix where Luke defeats Vader with the 35mm version.  I started listening to it because Mielr pointed out that the '93 has a noticeable music dropout in the left channel just before Vader loses his hand.  This dropout can be heard in the 35mm also, but it stands out a lot less; more importantly, I found that the music is much more prominent, while in the '93 the lightsaber crashes are too loud.  The music isn't being drowned out, but it doesn't carry the scene the way it does in the original mix.

Consequently, I decided that the 35mm version should be used instead for that scene.  Darth Mallwalker sent me 32-bit, 96 khz captures from three different laserdiscs, which I compared closely to determine whether any remixing had been done in the 80's.  My conclusion was that they were all the same mix, but that the most recent of the three had been remastered with peak limiting.  I decided to use the first version, and to match the Belbucus '93 mix the capture was processed via the iZotope sample rate conversion to 48khz and dithered to 16-bit with their MBIT+ algorithm.  (These are said to be among the best quality converters available anywhere.)

The result is that this iconic scene now sounds considerably better, and with the added benefit of the LFE channel and the Obi-wan music that was discussed earlier, this is a very satisfying mix for RotJ.  As with ESB, it isn't meant to be the 70mm version, since there are no recordings to use for reference, but it is extremely satisfying nonetheless.  Look for this to be available for download soon, and all three of my 5.1 mixes will be appearing on the version 3 dark_jedi dvd encodes, which are now also nearly complete.

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skyjedi2005 said:

The effects on the 1997 mix were astounding in theaters you actually felt a rumble during the death star trench run, or during the initial star destroyer fly over.  Not sure if this was DSS sound or DOLBY Digital stereo.

I saw the SE in DSS.  TESB and ROTJ were overall pretty impressive, but Star Wars was terrible.  The soundfield was too loud, and a couple surrounds actually were blown in a showing after the one I attended.  The added "Dirty Harry .44 Magnum" sound to the blasters in the Death Star chasm were completely unnecessary, among other things.

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The "Dirty Harry" sounds are a carryover from the 1977 mono mix, as is the "Close the blast doors" line and Threepio's tractor beam line (which was also present in the 1985 remix).

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Congrats on finishing hairy -- or should we call you Dirty Hairy?

With powerful weapons like iZotope's MBIT in your arsenal you'd best start with 44kHz rip ideally, not those captures. Sounds like you've managed a sweet elixir from the 'lemons' I gave you
Still ... it bugs me to think my industrial player's DAC section added its own colourization to the sound, however small.

Ironically the same day you announce completion of your project, my S/PDIF project reached a milestone yesterday.
Albeit still at "Almost there..." status -- It's flaky, but flaky in a predictable way.
This means I can rip three times the same passage, then use a two-out-of-three (TOOT) algorithm to select the good data. I tried successfully the section of 20th Fox fanfare yesterday as a sort of 'proof of concept'

Not meaning to send you back to work just when you're glad to be done, but if you think it could improve your project the slightest bit, I'll be glad to try TOOTing that ROTJ scene...

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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lol.  I just got back the 5.1 ac3 file already, though I haven't been able to listen to it yet.  Tis true that a 44.1 khz rip would make for the purest source to work with, but the captures do sound quite good.  I haven't noticed anything deficient about them, although I do have to admit that my speakers aren't the sort of hifi gear needed to resolve that kind of subtle distinction, since I can't afford the real elite stuff (though what I do have is pretty good quality).  I have heard that some pro's actually put digital sources through DAC's in order to use analogue mastering tools such as EQ, since they are said to sound more natural as opposed to harsher digital versions, before going back through ADC's again, and achieve transparent results provided the conversions are of high quality.  Seems to me that in this case the lossy ac3 encode would ultimately do more to affect the sound than the DAC would, but then I'm not really an expert in such things, so I'll defer to more learned opinions.

I posted a wav file comparing the scene, the first part being the straight 1993 version and the second my edited revision.  Part of it comes from the 35mm version having less dynamic range, so the peak volumes were limited while the music was allowed to take control of the scene, but that doesn't account for the '93 mix having a lower music level in general.  To me it's a pretty distinct difference, but you can listen for yourselves.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fqewio

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Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and post the link for the RotJ 5.1 ac3 file.  I hope everyone who hears it enjoys it as much as I do!

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MRR0OWX6

Thanks again to everyone who helped me out with these mixes and showed interest in my work--your support has meant a lot.  It's been a lot of fun, and I think the results were well worth all the effort.  Great sounding 5.1 with powerful bass and all the rightness and quality of the original mixes?  Hell to the yes.  Now to actually watch the films with these tracks . . .  :)

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hairy_hen, thank you for this new mix to try out! My MKV is getting bigger and bigger, lol!

On another note, any chance of getting new links for the ESB track. I haven't checked this thread in a while and noticed the links, but they were gone.

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hairy_hen, many thanks for creating and uploading these 5.1 mixes, I loved the SW one, so much more dynamic! Like you did for SW, could you possibly upload the FLAC 2.0 mixes of ESB and RotJ too?

Many thanks.

www.bardothodol.net

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Thank You! I really appreciate all the hard work you have put into these. I'll definitely be using these 5.1 mixes for my personal DVDs!